Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[ShadowX81]

For me the problem goes well beyond the fact that The Doctor is now a female. If the Doctor had been say, black; I wouldn't have cared because race doesn't really play a role in who you are other than culturally, something that is irrelevant to an alien anyway. But Gender is probably the single biggest determinant factor in the concept of identity and what it is built around.

This goes way beyond gender stereotypes and cultural norms. While yes, there are a lot of gender stereotypes that are outdated, to say that gender doesn't play a massive impact on who you are and how you experience life would be insane. Men and Women are equal, but they are not identical. And suddenly switching the Doctor's gender makes it virtually impossible to maintain that continuity of identity between actors and really believe that this is the same guy this whole time.

I don't care if there is a sci-fi action hero that is a female. The past two years have been filled with great female heroes in sci-fi. Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to a female time lord being a main character. I just am opposed to this one specific character being transformed into a woman.

This reeks of a political move, since strong female heroes and transgenderism are hot issues right now, and the reason you don't see much vocal criticism of this is evident all over the internet. Look no further than facebook to see how people have reacted. God forbid anyone opposes or questions this for any reason they are brutally torn to shreds and insulted, accused of being misogynist, hating women, creepy, a trump supporter (?), and worse. In today's radically hyper PC culture anything other than vocal praise of a move like this for any reason is grounds for being publically called out as being actively prejudiced.

You want to know why people are so sick of PC crap like this, just look at how the compassionate PC folk treat those that disagree with them.

 

[Liz10]

^

They can call me whatever they like, it will not make me adopt their opinions / views. On the contrary.

I know that there are others who share my views, as usual not all of them dare to speak up on their own but it has happened many times that I said something and people came out of the woodwork agreeing and thanking me for it.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The success of the show, or lack thereof, will ultimately have the final say.

 

[jimcap]

I've been reading all day about parents who are happy their little girls now have a new role model. Someone needs to tell them that came at the cost of ripping another hero away from little boys. But I guess male role models on TV for boys is just old fashion, now a days. As a kid my Doctor was Tom Baker, my son's was Matt Smith we enjoyed watching the show together but we are both now very disappointed. Like me when I was his age, My son wanted to be like the Doctor. So best of luck to Jodie, but it looks like Capaldi will be our last Doctor.

But there's hope, remember what the Doctor said!

 

[ShadowX81]

I've been reading all day about parents who are happy their little girls now have a new role model. Someone needs to tell them that came at the cost of ripping another hero away from little boys. But I guess male role models on TV for boys is just old fashion, now a days.

The response to this is of course that little boys should be able to look up to female role models. And that is true, there are a ton of great female role models that boys can learn a lot from. But on the other side of the coin, little girls should be able to learn from male ones too.

^

They can call me whatever they like, it will not make me adopt their opinions / views. On the contrary.

I know that there are others who share my views, as usual not all of them dare to speak up on their own but it has happened many times that I said something and people came out of the woodwork agreeing and thanking me for it.

Yea, what's weird is that ive never actually met one of these radical PC folk in real life. Pretty much everyone ive talked to is pretty reasonable and is just as sick of PC crap as I am. But the internet would have you believe that they are everywhere. However prevalent they are, they seem to be an extremely vocal and small minority whose every tiny whim the world is pandering to.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Today is rife with female heroines as heroic leads:

Rey in TFA
Katnis in Hunger Games
The Divergent girl
Wonder Woman



Are there not enough female heroes or something? I'm not sure what this female-empowerment charge is really for.

 

[jimcap]

The response to this is of course that little boys should be able to look up to female role models. And that is true, there are a ton of great female role models that boys can learn a lot from. But on the other side of the coin, little girls should be able to learn from male ones too.

Yes we agree kids should look up to all role models of both sexes. However boys need male role models too. The point I was making is this one was taken away from them. Just because there was the drumbeat of the "The new Doctor MUST be a women" coming from the PC crowd. IMHO. this gender swap trend we been seeing lately in TV, Film, and comics is just a sign of creative laziness on the part the producers. It also funny that we never seem to see a Female to Male gender swap.

Have to go! GOT starts in 9 Min. At least the day is not a total loss.

 

[EVILFACE]

lol

Doctor Who ended in March of 81.

 

[ali032373]

You don't see female to male gender swaps becausethe men are already cast in the overwhelming majority of lead roles. You can name a thousand examples. Lead roles for women tend to be gender specific, like Wonder Woman, where the gender of the character is central to the character and story. So you can't gender swap without wiping the character. Just in terms of volume of available roles it is nowhere close to being an even playing field.

 

[CallMeTheDoctor]

You don't see female to male gender swaps becausethe men are already cast in the overwhelming majority of lead roles. You can name a thousand examples. Lead roles for women tend to be gender specific, like Wonder Woman, where the gender of the character is central to the character and story. So you can't gender swap without wiping the character. Just in terms of volume of available roles it is nowhere close to being an even playing field.

Sure you can. You can say Hippolyta chose to keep her son instead of murdering like the lore of Amazons. He grows up only to learn he was the bastard child of a God. Now he seeks to champion over man for such trivial matters, and promotes a peaceful compromise between all. His villains can be the very same Gods that Diana has. He realizes that man has been corrupted for ages, and seeing as he has been trained by Amazons, he chooses to lead man in a better world.

Good enough?

 

[jimcap]

You level the playing field by creating more and better roles for women. Not by taking a long established male icon, and doing a affirmative action gender swap!

 

[CallMeTheDoctor]

You level the playing field by creating more and better roles for women. Not by taking a long established male icon, and doing a affirmative action gender swap!

Only time gender swap is okay, is if some 5th dimension trickster is ****ing around. Doing it for established characters is garbage. Only time I honestly let it slide is if some character in homage is being inherited by a female. I'm thinking X-23 as Wolverine or Mayday as Spider-Woman. Stuff like Jane Foster is debatable, but things like this? Just idiotic.

 

[Vetinari]

Well, I for one hope that the show proves you all wrong about the wisdom of this choice. Whittaker immediately screamed 'Doctor' to me in the reveal footage, but then again I've been wondering about this very scenario on and off since I got into the show during the 90s via the often mind-bending novels of the Faction Paradox era about biodata, the nature of time, and yes you guessed it paradoxes.

With his Broadchurch writing Chibnall has proven that he is capable of tackling these sorts of topics of unhealthy attitudes to gender and stereotyping at least halfway sensibly. However, whether he's any good at scifi is another matter, based on past scripts he's turned in for both Who and Torchwood his track-record in Who at least is spotty.

As for the male heroes for boys, female heroes for girls thing? Honestly? You know it isn't a 50/50 spread, women just don't get the same screentime that men do. And when they do get to make an appearance they tend to be in thankless wives/girlfriends roles, or in drama supposedly targeted exclusively at women. Whilst things have been shifting for the better in recent years the fact that your list of female heroes is so damned short says it all really. Whilst things have been improving, most of the shows that I can name off the top of my head with a female lead are not the kind of thing that kids would be an appropriate audience for. (Thinking ruefully about the kids show Paw Patrol that some of the younger kids in my extended family have gotten desperately into, and how the lone female character wears nothing but pink. Or even the outcry about the addition of *shock horror* a woman to the new Thunderbirds line-up.)

Whilst we can attempt to apply real-world norms all we like to the character... The Doctor is inherently 'other' (ironically in a similar way to the opposite sex from the way you lot seem to be talking about women as if they're another species), we've absolutely no idea what Gallifreyan social norms are/aren't. We've just not seen anywhere near enough of their culture to have any idea what's normal/not. The few times we've been on planet there's usually been a crisis, and they've been shown in ways that often appear to directly contradict the information we received last time we saw them. For instance up until relatively recently it was 'canon' that Timelords were woven in great genetic looms... It's been made explicit a few times over the years that they see time in a manner we can only dream of. They can casually play with black holes, rewrite history, and manipulate their very DNA to apparently change their external appearance to such an extent that they can look like a different species to anyone who isn't another Timelord... and we think they see gender the same way we do?

Although I'm just as enthusiastic to see Moffat go as the next person (the show had long since become stale under his care) I do hope that there are people out there willing to give the show a chance. Frankly the litany of vile abusive language that this change has thrown up from the 'against' side has made me much more sympathetic to the 'everyone is sexist' brigade lately. Whilst I disagree with you guys about the wisdom of the choice, I appreciate that you're at least being (Mostly) civil about it despite being disappointed. Honestly the frothing rage that large swathes of the Internet has descended into about a strange little 'educational' (sic) show made on a shoestring budget has saddened me.

Colin Baker's tweet about the overreaction feels horribly relevant. And I'll leave this overly long post here by pointing out that the idea of extending the net of potential actors to include women was touted by Sydney Newman himself back in the day.

 

[jimcap]

Please! Let's not pretend the Doctor is asexual.
Some examples.
Doctor 9-Rose
Doctor 10 Rose, Martha, Madame De Pompadour, Joan Redfern.
Doctor 11 Amy, Clara
Doctor 12 River Song.

 

[ShadowX81]

As for the male heroes for boys, female heroes for girls thing? Honestly? You know it isn't a 50/50 spread, women just don't get the same screentime that men do. And when they do get to make an appearance they tend to be in thankless wives/girlfriends roles, or in drama supposedly targeted exclusively at women. Whilst things have been shifting for the better in recent years the fact that your list of female heroes is so damned short says it all really. Whilst things have been improving, most of the shows that I can name off the top of my head with a female lead are not the kind of thing that kids would be an appropriate audience for.

You are right. It isn't even yet. But it has been improving, and quickly. But dear god it has to happen a lot more naturally and over time. Let these female characters be created and established. Unfortunately that is not going to happen overnight. But it will happen. And I think the problem is that a lot of these PC people try to make it immediately a reality. So it isn't just enough that well written female characters are being created, but established characters have to be thrown under the bus (I'm looking at you Marvel) just to balance out a quota as quickly as possible.

how the lone female character wears nothing but pink

Why is this an issue in any way, shape, or form? Its one thing to say that people should be free to deviate from traditional gender roles. Its another to be offended at the people that choose to stick to them, which in this culture is still the majority.

Whilst we can attempt to apply real-world norms all we like to the character... The Doctor is inherently 'other' (ironically in a similar way to the opposite sex from the way you lot seem to be talking about women as if they're another species), we've absolutely no idea what Gallifreyan social norms are/aren't. We've just not seen anywhere near enough of their culture to have any idea what's normal/not. The few times we've been on planet there's usually been a crisis, and they've been shown in ways that often appear to directly contradict the information we received last time we saw them. For instance up until relatively recently it was 'canon' that Timelords were woven in great genetic looms... It's been made explicit a few times over the years that they see time in a manner we can only dream of. They can casually play with black holes, rewrite history, and manipulate their very DNA to apparently change their external appearance to such an extent that they can look like a different species to anyone who isn't another Timelord... and we think they see gender the same way we do?

Yes, I do think that he sees gender in exactly the same way we do. Doctor Who is not a person from a real society that we are slowly discovering. He is a fictional hero that is written by humans, meant to appeal to the sensibilities of humans.

Sort of like how suddenly when the gay movement became a thing 10 years ago suddenly he started bumping into gay people everywhere. Or now that gender fluidity and the ridiculous idea that gender identity is imaginary has become the latest movement people flash around like a fashion accessory, this happens.

Frankly the litany of vile abusive language that this change has thrown up from the 'against' side has made me much more sympathetic to the 'everyone is sexist' brigade lately. Whilst I disagree with you guys about the wisdom of the choice, I appreciate that you're at least being (Mostly) civil about it despite being disappointed. Honestly the frothing rage that large swathes of the Internet has descended into about a strange little 'educational' (sic) show made on a shoestring budget has saddened me.

Where is this giant vitriolic movement from the against side? All i've seen is a massive amount of posts containing a bizarre blend of praise for the choice and fuming anger at traditional values, and once in a blue moon someone will voice opposition to the decision and immediately be descended upon by hoards of posters calling them the most disgusting insults imaginable.

Why don't people realize that accusing someone of prejudice is one of the most horrible accusations you could make about someone's character. Its also one of the qualities that is thankfully very rare. Its the nuclear option in every argument. And its a card that is played in these debates almost every discussion involving minorities or women, regardless of the context.

 

[Vetinari]

Right apologies - I'll try to reply properly later but away from the computer now. I note you've cherry-picked things out of context, but I'll do my best to have rational responses.

However one thing which has raised my hackles - I've made no accusations of sexism against anyone on here, and you immediately jump down my throat? Back off.

As to where this vile outpouring is taking place? Social media generally - the usual places, Facebook etc, and most notably the largest Doctor Who forum on the Web, Gallifreybase (of which I've been a member since long before its predecessor Outpost shut down, and is generally a lovely place) has descended into a scrum of outright hate and will likely remain full of people on both sides declaring their hate until well after the current incumbent in the role leaves, if past activities on there hold true.

Don't make random assertions about how I've branded an undeserving group mysogynists. For goodness sake - for the most part GB is a lovely place, and Who fandom lovely people. However the current outpouring of hate is right there on the computer screen in gory pixellated detail for anyone with eyes to see. For every example who's taking the announcement reasonably there are several dozen tantrums taking place. I fully expect the tabloid press in the UK to be clogged with articles about outraged fans come time of print given that journalists are well-known to frequent the place looking for entertainment-section stories.

But please do defend these utter children who are the exact group that give nerds and geeks everywhere such a bad rep. I note that the not so subtle poking at the apparent PC brigade around here goes unremarked, and yet you choose to take issue with my disappointment with the way a subset of the fandom, of which I am a member, has chosen to take this news.

I'd show you quotes, but honestly I don't want to repeat what's been spewed, and don't want to take it outside of the private forum. However feel free to check out the Doctor Who FB page, no doubt there are still examples there. The fact that even the mods on GB are barely keeping up with the multiple nonsense threads of utter bilge which often consist of breaking the swear filter and calling the showrunner terrible names... A forum I feel I should point out, that on the whole is a far more pleasant place than around here, has temporarily been taken over by a swathe of irrationally angry idiots who have likely earned themselves bannings. Not on the basis of their opinions mind you, but by the hateful, threatening ways in which they're choosing to express them.

I'm not randomly throwing around accusations of anything. If anything your oversensitivity to the slightest whiff of a possibility of false accusation is rather reminiscent of the PC group that you're decrying.

 

[ShadowX81]

My apologies. My comments at the end of my last post were not so much directed at you, but rather just me venting my frustrations at the attitudes ive seen expressed all over the web during this discussion.

I just think that the attitudes you have seen so much of (I honestly haven't. But then again 5 minutes on the Doctor Who facebook page made me too angry to continue reading) are more than present on both sides.

 

[Vetinari]

My apologies. My comments at the end of my last post were not so much directed at you, but rather just me venting my frustrations at the attitudes ive seen expressed all over the web during this discussion.

I just think that the attitudes you have seen so much of (I honestly haven't. But then again 5 minutes on the Doctor Who facebook page made me too angry to continue reading) are more than present on both sides.

Sorry - I realise that my own response was rather vehement to put it lightly!

I'll try and politely talk out everything else when I'm at a computer. I'm sure there's interesting points to debate - But suffice it to say, whilst I was expecting some sort of initial angry burst from that particular subset of fans, I wasn't expecting quite so many of them, or for it to be so vitriolic. It's painfully reminiscent of how a similar group were willing Ghostbusters to fail on no more basis than the casting list.

 

[Liz10]

As if the 'pro female Doctor' side doesn't use 'vile abusive language'. Frankly if I'm being called 'sexist' or a 'piece of ****' just because I have different views on a casting choice I'm not gonna stay polite myself. I abandoned GB long ago and I'm not on Facebook, so I don't even know what's going on there but I'm sure it's not much different from Twitter, in fact I think it's worse. I'll stay away for my own good.

Oh, and for the record: I'm a woman. I know other women are on the 'against' side, it's not just men who are unhappy.

 

[ShadowX81]

It's painfully reminiscent of how a similar group were willing Ghostbusters to fail on no more basis than the casting list.

I think that is a good example of the dangers of this whole thing. That movie was a dumpster fire of a film, to put it bluntly. But they were able to deflect a lot of the criticism about the major red flags that popped up during marketing by deflecting it off as misogyny. They were using PC casting as a way to defend bad writing and the rebooting of a franchise that no one wanted to see remade. And while they have all of us fighting about whose racist and who is a SJW, no one bothers to ask them why remaking it in the first place was a justifiable idea.

There is a massive difference between "I hate women" and "Don't screw with a property I love".