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For me the problem goes well beyond the fact that The Doctor is now a female. If the Doctor had been say, black; I wouldn't have cared because race doesn't really play a role in who you are other than culturally, something that is irrelevant to an alien anyway. But Gender is probably the single biggest determinant factor in the concept of identity and what it is built around.

This goes way beyond gender stereotypes and cultural norms. While yes, there are a lot of gender stereotypes that are outdated, to say that gender doesn't play a massive impact on who you are and how you experience life would be insane. Men and Women are equal, but they are not identical. And suddenly switching the Doctor's gender makes it virtually impossible to maintain that continuity of identity between actors and really believe that this is the same guy this whole time.

I don't care if there is a sci-fi action hero that is a female. The past two years have been filled with great female heroes in sci-fi. Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to a female time lord being a main character. I just am opposed to this one specific character being transformed into a woman.

This reeks of a political move, since strong female heroes and transgenderism are hot issues right now, and the reason you don't see much vocal criticism of this is evident all over the internet. Look no further than facebook to see how people have reacted. God forbid anyone opposes or questions this for any reason they are brutally torn to shreds and insulted, accused of being misogynist, hating women, creepy, a trump supporter (?), and worse. In today's radically hyper PC culture anything other than vocal praise of a move like this for any reason is grounds for being publically called out as being actively prejudiced.

You want to know why people are so sick of PC crap like this, just look at how the compassionate PC folk treat those that disagree with them.

Brilliant post, well said!

As if the 'pro female Doctor' side doesn't use 'vile abusive language'. Frankly if I'm being called 'sexist' or a 'piece of ****' just because I have different views on a casting choice I'm not gonna stay polite myself. I abandoned GB long ago and I'm not on Facebook, so I don't even know what's going on there but I'm sure it's not much different from Twitter, in fact I think it's worse. I'll stay away for my own good.

Oh, and for the record: I'm a woman. I know other women are on the 'against' side, it's not just men who are unhappy.

I'm not on Facebook but either but I've read some of the comments and it seems anyone who opposes this choice is being shot down as "not a true fan" or "doesn't understand the concept of the show". Wrong on both counts some of us just care about the show and what might happen to it as a result of this. I am female myself and in my eyes the Doctor is and always should be a man and there was no need to undo the last 50 plus years by bowing to Pc nonsense. Nothing against strong female characters at all, but if they want one in DW, create a new one, bring back Romana or heck even give Missy her own spin off show (another move I didn't agree with)
 
You are right. It isn't even yet. But it has been improving, and quickly. But dear god it has to happen a lot more naturally and over time. Let these female characters be created and established. Unfortunately that is not going to happen overnight. But it will happen. And I think the problem is that a lot of these PC people try to make it immediately a reality. So it isn't just enough that well written female characters are being created, but established characters have to be thrown under the bus (I'm looking at you Marvel) just to balance out a quota as quickly as possible.

Fair enough, I can definitely understand the frustration with that approach, the big two are especially dire at this sort of thing. Believe me the numerous do overs/reboots/undoes/redoes that the big two indulge in make me roll my eyes whenever they do their replacement schtick. However, on an older property like Who sometimes you just have to grin and bear it and hope that the new direction works well - nu-Starbuck was a success wasn't she?

Why is this an issue in any way, shape, or form? Its one thing to say that people should be free to deviate from traditional gender roles. Its another to be offended at the people that choose to stick to them, which in this culture is still the majority.

Ah, this is where the rest of the sentence is important. Lone. Female. Character. In a show that's an ensemble. When that happens the character tends to be reduced to being female, using the shorthand of pink, and eyelashes and very little else. The lone female character is especially doomed since she's called on to represent the entirety of her ***, making things such as consistent characterisation secondary.

Yes, I do think that he sees gender in exactly the same way we do. Doctor Who is not a person from a real society that we are slowly discovering. He is a fictional hero that is written by humans, meant to appeal to the sensibilities of humans.

I think we'll have to disagree on this point. Sorry, not that it isn't a valid point of view - it's just, having grown up with the peculiar experimental brand of the show that existed during the Great hiatus, I just can never agree with him being the point of view character. (And given that Chibnall is part of the old guard that were around in that era, I suspect he's of a similar mind.) That role was always the companions, The Doctor in the novels, and in much of the show (Tom Baker, McCoy, McGann and Troughton eras especially), has been the mysterious fae trickster with Orange and Blue morality far more often than most people seem willing to acknowledge.

Urgh how to put this... Its almost akin to arguing that Loki should be always Tom Hiddleston because that's how it's always been and we don't want to upset the current fans, ignoring that the archetypes of the character are far far more complex (and interesting) than the stuff shown in the films, or even the comics, involving graphic disturbing imagery, and reflecting a social code and order that we find abhorrent these days. (Sif's hair and how Sleipnir was sired for instance, or Loki's children being tricked into entrapment) The character isn't at all relevant to modern society surely, and yet he's one of the most fascinating that the MCU have produced - I suspect much of that is leakage from the darkness of the much much older tales that spawned the character in the first place. I'm desperately hoping that Chibnall will take similar inspiration from the strange and fantastical 90s era of the show - an era that spawned the still talked about two-parter Human Nature/Family of Blood. If the show can recapture some of that twisted approach to its storytelling I'll be overjoyed.

The story almost demands that we take the thing in as interesting a direction as we can push it given the Saturday tea time time slot.

Under RTD that direction was PTSD and Time War aftermath, the repercussions of playing God with the universe. Under Moffat a more overt fascination with the mechanisms of time travel itself, and an eventually tiring obsession with the main character as savior. Under Chibnall? Who knows? Recently he's been about toxic gender ideas... However that was Broadchurch, not a family show.

Sort of like how suddenly when the gay movement became a thing 10 years ago suddenly he started bumping into gay people everywhere. Or now that gender fluidity and the ridiculous idea that gender identity is imaginary has become the latest movement people flash around like a fashion accessory, this happens.

Hah! That's giving me flashbacks to the 00s when every week there was a 'gay agenda' thread. Nothing against you saying that at all, RTD admitted that there was one. But then, RTD himself finds those stories fascinating, as evidenced by his brilliant shows Queer as Folk, and Cucumber/Banana. Hinchcliffe had his thing for gothic horror, Adams overt often absurd humour and Nation... Well Nazis, spies and all of the popular themes from the postwar era.

It'll be a different flavour to the show if Chibnall wants his era to be about gender perceptions sure, but what each of those eras have in common is that they're primarily about a mad alien travelling in a spacetime capsule that they've stolen having mad adventures. I doubt that's going to change.

Hell, put it this way - the Pertwee era was a far more drastic change in format than this will likely be. The show survived and thrived with that left-field decision, it was only when it started looking backwards that it started to suffer (well that and Grade, who'd long hated the show finally got into a position where he could kill it, ironically just as it was beginning to find its feet again)

There's also the point that until 2020 the show is probably safe. Until then the... Unique manner in which the BBC acquires its funding, and its remit to make public television are still intact. After 2020, who knows? But the show has been all but guaranteed five more seasons to find its groove again if rumours are to be believed.

Basically all I'm asking is that you give it a fair chance. The show started off as an educational tool, before rapidly morphing into the scifi show we all know today. Who wouldn't still exist if someone hadn't had the radical idea to make the recast an inherent part of the character. I'd like to think this relatively small addition to that lore will only help the show's longterm survival by opening up a whole raft of storytelling options that weren't available before. However I'm trying to be empathetic with the people who are disappointed.



Hah yeah - ironically not actually seen the Ghostbusters film, but I remember the hate that came before the film, and the rather... Obvious relief that the reboot wasn't that good. Hrmm, the thing is whilst the fan reaction is definitely comparable, the situation otherwise isn't. I'm not sure there is another show that has this level of flexibility of format encoded into its very fabric. (See previous Pertwee example.) I keep flashing back to the fact that Sydney Newman wanted it to happen as far back as the 80s.
 
Oh and whilst I remember... Yep the mods on GB have shut down the main discussion thread, and pruned out most of the hate spam threads/are deleting the offending posts. Apparently many many bans are due. I feel rather sorry for them having to deal with that epic ****storm. But the mods have named and shamed what they're calling obsessive 4chan warriors for purposefully being hateful.

I will point out that the vast majority of the offending posts were from the no-camp, however from the tone of yes-camp = evil that seems to be floating around amongst those who are disappointed by the casting choice, I suspect that will fall on deaf ears.

As far as I can tell there's two groups of extremely vocal minorities who're stirring everyone else up into disliking each other, when in reality I think most fans will continue to quietly watch the show even when they don't like the current incumbent/showrunner.
 
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I was against a female Doctor, but I'm willing to wait and see how it pans out. I guess Moffat did prepare us by serving up a female Master.

Sad there can't be a rational debate these days without each side trying to shut down the other with accusations and vitriol. Part of the reason I quit social media.
 
On twitter yesterday , if you didn't agree with the casting you were called Cry Baby , Piss Boy, or a Knuckle Dragger. So the message was you must accept it and shut up. That being said , the people who don't like the casting, also need to be civil. We have valid reasons to be disappointed and don't need to be hating. I'm happy to say people on this site have been very respectful of people's views on this subject.
 
On twitter yesterday , if you didn't agree with the casting you were called Cry Baby , Piss Boy, or a Knuckle Dragger. So the message was you must accept it and shut up. That being said , the people who don't like the casting, also need to be civil. We have valid reasons to be disappointed and don't need to be hating. I'm happy to say people on this site have been very respectful of people's views on this subject.

That's par for the course for just about anything that's been changed like this
 
The irony being it's par for the course for ppl to cry PC or socialsm or the -ism du jour when they make a character change in the first place.
 
On twitter yesterday , if you didn't agree with the casting you were called Cry Baby , Piss Boy, or a Knuckle Dragger. So the message was you must accept it and shut up. That being said , the people who don't like the casting, also need to be civil. We have valid reasons to be disappointed and don't need to be hating. I'm happy to say people on this site have been very respectful of people's views on this subject.

Thats because none of the marvel people are here... :monkey3
 
As if the 'pro female Doctor' side doesn't use 'vile abusive language'. Frankly if I'm being called 'sexist' or a 'piece of ****' just because I have different views on a casting choice I'm not gonna stay polite myself. I abandoned GB long ago and I'm not on Facebook, so I don't even know what's going on there but I'm sure it's not much different from Twitter, in fact I think it's worse. I'll stay away for my own good.

Oh, and for the record: I'm a woman. I know other women are on the 'against' side, it's not just men who are unhappy.



Well I've been calling for The Rani, a regenerated Susan and Romana to appear since the program came back...so i'm at a loss to understand how i'm sexist. That's three uber strong female characters, all an equal to the Doctor...
 
Well I've been calling for The Rani, a regenerated Susan and Romana to appear since the program came back...so i'm at a loss to understand how i'm sexist. That's three uber strong female characters, all an equal to the Doctor...

Absolutely! Would love to see a new incarnation of the Rani...but the way things are heading with all this 'gender bending' nonsense..it's more than likely a man will be cast in that role...oh and Susan is now Sean the dr's grandson and Romana now goes by the name of Fred..
 
Bill is being resurrected..so it will be all girlie action in the lovely new pink tardis..

That would be rubbing people faces in it. Don't think the producer will want to go that route. However since Jodie Whittaker is very attractive. I wonder if Bill or a male companion will have a thing for her, like Rose did for Doctor Ten. Also fans will be eagerly awaiting the episode were the Doctor surfs the crimson wave for the first time. Must see TV.. :monkey3
 
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