Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[ProgMatinee]

I just hope every episode isn't about race.

Its been a long time, but if I remember correctly there was little or no race related story arcs regarding Avery Brooks in Star Trek Deep Space 9 and I hope thats how Who operates. It should be a part of the character but not THE defining attribute.

I don't know how it is in England, but here in the US I think we're a bit past the whole justify a black character's relevance by running him through a gauntlet of racism.

 

[El Skutto]

We saw Romana turn blue after regenerating.

You gotta admit that that scene was dumb. I can understand a timelord or timelady changing their clothing multiple times until they find a look they like, but changing their entire body? She must have gone through, what, 6 regenerations in that segment alone? Funny how she was able to change her appearance as often as she liked, but the Doctor was always stuck with his new face, like it or not.

 

[El Skutto]

I just hope every episode isn't about race.

Agreed. Considering that just about every other episode of Torchwood bashes you over the head with references to Captain Jack's polysexuality, I get the distinct feeling that the show would definitely throw in a few racial overtones in order to make a bigger social statement.

Pretty much any story set in the past would invariably lend itself to situations revolving around race, especially if the Doc's new companion turns out to be another white woman. I hope I'm wrong, but precedents lead me to believe that I won't be.

 

[Kabukiman]

I just hope every episode isn't about race.

Same here, but the BBC would be stupid not to have at least one pre-civil rights movement Earth episode.

Do one, get it out of the way, and then back to Who as usual.

 

[barbelith]

I just hope every episode isn't about race.

The historical episodes will look idiotic if race isn't an issue to some degree. It's just a fact of life. I imagine the white fans will complain due to the invisibility of whiteness effect and everyone else won't even notice. Let's face it, there's an entire swathe of US history where a black Doctor wouldn't even be allowed to walk down the street with a white teen girl.

You gotta admit that that scene was dumb.

I thought it was fun. Good old Douglas Adams! We already knew Time Lords can control the outcome of regeneration (see The War Games) and we also know Romana was a far better student than the Doctor ever was. And again in the new series we see the Master pick his new form ("If the Doctor can be young and strong, so can I!"). Plus we get confirmation regeneration has a window where the form remains malleable (see The Christmas Invasion) and Time Lords can change species (see the TVM).

I'm okay with the Doctor being a poor student who never figured it out, and in any event traumatic "death" regenerations in the field are probably massively different than willful regenerations in the safety of a TARDIS or on Gallifrey.

 

[ProgMatinee]

There aren't THAT many historical episodes in a given season. Those I fully expect to have some racial overtones and perhaps be ALL about race.

An episode where the Doctor travels to 1863 Massachusetts and becomes involved in Shaw's volunteers...for example. Those kind of episodes I would find entertaining.

Its the ones where in modern times if the Doctor had to justify himself to all the episodic characters because of his race and some taboo about traveling with a white woman that I would find tedious and distracting to an otherwise nonracial episode.

 

[El Skutto]

We already knew Time Lords can control the outcome of regeneration (see The War Games) and we also know Romana was a far better student than the Doctor ever was. And again in the new series we see the Master pick his new form ("If the Doctor can be young and strong, so can I!"). Plus we get confirmation regeneration has a window where the form remains malleable (see The Christmas Invasion) and Time Lords can change species (see the TVM).

I tend to ignore anything that happens in the new series as I feel they've sacrificed continuity for entertainment value. Like the scene in the Xmas special where the Doctor is flying the Tardis along the freeway, trying to save Donna from the robot driver. The Tardis doesn't fly in the conventional sense; it simply vanishes and re-appears in a new location and/or time.

As for the War Games, the Doctor was being forcibly regenerated by the Timelords as punishment for his meddling, although they did offer to give him his choice for a new face. When he couldn't decide, they chose his new face for him. That was an exception, as every other regeneration since then has been a surprise to him, and he certainly never had the opportunity to keep changing faces/bodies until he was satisfied with the result.

And the less said about the TVM, the better. Eric Roberts as the Master? Ummm, no.

Bottom line, the new series has decided to ignore many elements of Who that were canon for the sake of entertainment. It happened in the old series as well, but not nearly as often as in the new series.

How do you feel about the show's heavy reliance on romance sub-plots involving the Doctor for dramatic purposes these days? I find it hard to believe that a man who spent an entire season with Mary Tamm and didn't shag her senseless would suddenly be snogging anything that comes his way. I guess that explains his granddaughter Susan, though...

 

[barbelith]

Its the ones where in modern times if the Doctor had to justify himself to all the episodic characters because of his race and some taboo about traveling with a white woman that I would find tedious and distracting to an otherwise nonracial episode.

I don't think we'll see that for episodes set in "modern times" or the future. But it would be unavoidable if the TARDIS landed in 1964 Alabama for example. It's borderline racist to not want any examination of historical realities. Equally it would be wrong for contemporary episodes to have much to say on the matter.

I tend to ignore anything that happens in the new series as I feel they've sacrificed continuity for entertainment value.

So did The Deadly Assassin.

Like the scene in the Xmas special where the Doctor is flying the Tardis along the freeway, trying to save Donna from the robot driver. The Tardis doesn't fly in the conventional sense; it simply vanishes and re-appears in a new location and/or time.

It flew that way in Fury from the Deep. It clearly flies through normal space that way, as shown in several episodes. And the Master's TARDIS has hovered in the air fully materialized.

As for the War Games, the Doctor was being forcibly regenerated by the Timelords as punishment for his meddling, although they did offer to give him his choice for a new face.

Indicating that Time Lords can choose their appearance in some circumstances. Something the classic series later backs up with Romana.

How do you feel about the show's heavy reliance on romance sub-plots involving the Doctor for dramatic purposes these days?

I think they're walking a fine line. I don't object to the way it's been handled so far but I also wouldn't like to see an overt romance. On the other hand the classic series tells us the Doctor has a granddaughter and a family. I think the reluctance to embrace a romantic Doctor has more to do with fans than the character, and it's impossible as an adult to watch something like City of Death or Shada and not read the body language and line delivery as a Doctor and companion in love.

I think the most elegant interpretation is that we used to have a remote Doctor who wound up clinging to Rose to overcome his trauma from the Time War, kicking off a process that (if River Song is any indication) opens him back up to the man he used to be (father and grandfather). That keeps the classic series "pure" for those who want it.

 

[ProgMatinee]

It's borderline racist to not want any examination of historical realities.

Sue me for not wanting a sci-fi show to recreate "Roots", "Remember the Titans" and "Driving Ms. Daisy" at every opportunity.

I think it would make for an interesting 2 episode arc...somewhere in the middle of the season, but beyond that I think it becomes tedious, combersome, and preachy and too much of a focus.

I'm actually very interested in race relations in general, the progress certain historical figures have helped push in America, particularly, but I don't need it from a sci-fi show, particularly if its from a writer with an agenda or a scathing criticism of the modern world.

 

[barbelith]

Sue me for not wanting a sci-fi show to recreate "Roots", "Remember the Titans" and "Driving Ms. Daisy" at every opportunity.

Who said it would be like that? So far only the people complaining in advance. It could be a simple matter of avoiding all historical eras where race isn't an issue but let's face it - there aren't many. The fact of the matter is that within living memory a black Doctor would not have been allowed to sit with his white companion on a bus. I wouldn't expect to see race brought up in contemporary or future episodes (just like it never was before) but there was only one role for Martha in 1914 and she was in it. The time travel element of the show throws up a big challenge in this sense.

Or we can take the route of historical revisionism so that a few white viewers don't get their panties in a bunch. And who knows? Some of their best friends might be black...

 

[ProgMatinee]

Or we can take the route of historical revisionism so that a few white viewers don't get their panties in a bunch. And who knows? Some of their best friends might be black...

Why are you so antagonizing? Not enough political threads to act the fool in?

 

[ProgMatinee]

In any case, if need be, they can come up with a clever solution. After all, the TARDIS has always been the excuse for the Doctor and the companions to be able to understand the Aztecs, Chinese, aliens, etc also, no one seems to ever question the clothing they wear too intently. If push came to shove and the writers wanted to do a feudal Japan episode they can make the TARDIS somehow cloak the Doctor or change his appearance or something.

But seriously, are you ready and willing to let Doctor Who turn into a race commentary show? Thats what I watch Friday Night Lights for.

 

[Memnoch]

Forgive me, as after a while I stopped reading but:

Really.. continuity in Doctor Who?! You do realize this is the show that is so inconsistent that there is actually a DIScontunity Guide? The writers make it up as they go along, always have and probably always will.

 

[barbelith]

Why are you so antagonizing?

It's just an observation. I think we all know what branch of fandom the complaints are going to come from. The fact that they're already here before the first script has even been written says so much. It's as ridiculous as the insipid "gay agenda" crowd.

Fact: a black Doctor would not be allowed to walk down the street holding Rose's hand at any point for several centuries in Western history including within living memory. There's only one reason to stick our heads in the sand should the TARDIS land in those times and places and it's not a pretty one. You couldn't tell a story like Human Nature without a massive rewrite - and even then in that story some viewers moaned because it had the temerity to acknowledge there's only one place for Martha in that school.

But seriously, are you ready and willing to let Doctor Who turn into a race commentary show?

I don't expect it will. And in the unlikely event that it actually does ... somebody pinch me so I wake up from this nightmare where intelligent people think promoting tolerance and equality is a bad thing.

 

[ProgMatinee]

I don't expect it will. And in the unlikely event that it actually does ... somebody pinch me so I wake up from this nightmare where intelligent people think promoting tolerance and equality is a bad thing.

No one is saying that promoting tolerance is a bad thing, but is it necessary to do it via a sci-fi show if it threatened the fun and adventuresome nature of the show and the bigger plot? Also, I tend to think this guy (if he was the creator of Torchwood) is a bit heavy handed and himself ignorant of what equality is.

I don't think its racist, as you seem to imply with your "branch of fandom the complaints are going to come from" comment, to hope that the show doesn't get too heavy by adding too much race issues. I think it offers certain interesting opportunities, such as Civil War scenario I mentioned, but it also opens the chance to bog the show down and deter it from its main plot.

 

[barbelith]

No one is saying that promoting tolerance is a bad thing, but is it necessary to do it via a sci-fi show if it threatened the fun and adventuresome nature of the show and the bigger plot?

But this is something that's always going to be in the eye of the beholder. The past four seasons drew complaints because of Rose and Mickey for crying out loud - a relationship where race is never mentioned and yet because it's there at all a certain segment gets on their soapbox to moan about PC agendas and the like. There is a difference between Doctor Who becoming a vehicle primarily intended to discuss race relations and Doctor Who as a time travel show where the Doctor runs into certain challenges at certain times in history due to the color of his skin. There is no reason to expect the former; it would be offensive in some cases not to expect the latter.

Also, I tend to think this guy (if he was the creator of Torchwood) is a bit heavy handed and himself ignorant of what equality is.

RTD created Torchwood. Steven Moffat is in charge of Doctor Who from series five onward and the man responsible for selecting the new Doctor. And of course Torchwood was never designed to promote equality; it was intended from the beginning to be a sexually charged fantasy romp for grownups.

I think it offers certain interesting opportunities, such as Civil War scenario I mentioned, but it also opens the chance to bog the show down and deter it from its main plot.

I agree. But as you pointed out there are only a handful of historical episodes each year, and even fewer of these require overt recognition of the Doctor's presumed new skin color. I really think this is going to be a non-issue aside from the handful for whom any reference is going to far. I would imagine it'll be dealt with in a single line most of the time.

 

[ProgMatinee]

I suppose there are always "some people" that will take any mention of nonconventional things as "offensive" but I say we're talking seriously small percentages, 1 out of 10,000 viewers or something. The issue perhaps escalates when you expand "Mickey and Rose" to Martha and the Doctor, Martha's dad and the bimbo, Martha and Shakespear, etc. The more something is pressed, the more people recognize it being pressed. Now you're talking 100 of 10,000 or whatever. Regardless, I think its a VERY small amount of people. But those are very background relationships/plot.

I suspect repeated plot devices revolving around racism won't just piss off racists or ultraconservatives, but basic fans.

Dr. Who fans are fans of sci-fi adventure...not social and racial commentary. Its not about liberal ideas, its about distracting the audience from the main point of the show.

Granted, I didn't know jack squat about the "point" of Torchwood going into the first season, but my wife and I personally found it distracting regarding the frequent bisexual and homosexual plot/romances and we chose not to watch an otherwise fun sci-fi show anymore.

 

[barbelith]

I suspect repeated plot devices revolving around racism won't just piss off racists or ultraconservatives, but basic fans.

Yeah. The Daleks are so unpopular.

Granted, I didn't know jack squat about the "point" of Torchwood going into the first season, but my wife and I personally found it distracting regarding the frequent bisexual and homosexual plot/romances and we chose not to watch an otherwise fun sci-fi show anymore.

I imagine you don't notice the ubiquitous heterosexual plots/romances on TV though. White fans are just going to have to get used to the idea of a minority Doctor and the attendant social challenges that come with that. What you're about to go through - well, minority Doctor Who fans have gone through that for 45 years now. The Doctor's gone to a million places they wouldn't have been welcome.

 

[El Skutto]

Wow, Barbelith. You seem to equate any resistance to changing the Doctor's race with racism, when it's really just a question of maintaining the character as-is.

My problem isn't with race, it's with changing established characters from their original incarnations. Take the new Battlestar Galactica, for example. To me, Colonel Tighe and Boomer will always be black men, and Starbuck a womanizing white guy. Not because I'm a misogynist or racist, but because those are the characters I grew up with.

Heck, people freaked out when Lucas changed things up so that Greedo shot first, simply because it changed the nature of Han Solo's character from a scoundrel who'll take any opportunity to something more noble. We're not even talking about a change in the actor or anything, just in the underlying motivations behind the character's actions.

If you're cool with the change in the Doctor's character then good for you. But don't you dare imply that anyone who feels otherwise is a racist.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Yeah. The Daleks are so unpopular.



I imagine you don't notice the ubiquitous heterosexual plots/romances on TV though. White fans are just going to have to get used to the idea of a minority Doctor and the attendant social challenges that come with that. What you're about to go through - well, minority Doctor Who fans have gone through that for 45 years now. The Doctor's gone to a million places they wouldn't have been welcome.

Again, another antagonistic post. You have serious social problems. Get a clue. By the way, excellent point about the Daleks. Too bad you had to be an asshat about it. There aren't that many Dr. Who fans on this board to discuss the show with, count me out. You're the first person on my ignore list. Congrats on getting on there even before the Josh.