Documents say detainee in Guantanamo near insanity

[Lee in MI]

The End of America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9PulYpjGs
Give me Liberty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

Not that I agree completely, but she's got some good points...

 

[DarkArtist81]

Darthrazz made some good points... it goes both ways.. Extremists will lie to get themselves freed and cheat the system. So it's a double edged sword.

But we cannot arrest anyone we like without any PROOF, that is acting against our very constitution and what makes us American.

If someone truly did something, and we have a fingerprint or a hair follicle, or perhaps a surveillance shot... some sort of concrete evidence or even highly suspect evidence... Then and only then can we detain someone and punish them for their crimes.

But to lower ourselves to torture, psychological or physical... or to arrest by way of "Seven degrees of Separation"... That is highly wrong and makes us no better than the extremists who behead workers with no connections to government at all.

I'm sure that under the same "rules", that someone could connect ME to illegal operations and drug charges... simply because I have some unsavory folks in my bloodline. Does that make me a criminal?

The point is, that we have a right to punish those who attempt terror on our country. We have a right to punish those who are the real conspirators involved in 9/11. But we cannot forget who we are as Americans or lose our moral souls in the process. We cannot place our hate on the shoulders of innocent people in an effort to cleanse ourselves of our pain.

If you support that kind of torture without proof, you are no better than a terrorist in my book.

 

[Kuzeh]

What would you have America do to people that are suspected of wanting to annihalate the U.S.? Sit around and wait for another attack, so as not to offend anyone or their extremist religious views?

Do you even have an idea why some countries hold a grudge against the U.S.?
It can be somewhat summarized as:
"The political extremist and invasive foreign policy on countries of interest to the U.S. financially..."
But I don't think you will understand that...

By the way, take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fze2J2Ve9is

 

[Mesa]

So far no one has been able to answer my question. How should we handle the situation of preventing suspected terrorists from continuing their plans to attack the US? I'm waiting for all the better ways we could do it that would be just as efficient in preventing a second attack in over seven years.

And DA, I hardly suspect that the majority of these people locked up in Guantanamo are innocent. I've already agreed that yes, unfortunately there is probably a very small percentage of people that maybe shouldn't be there, but I don't believe that is a large number, and we aren't a perfect people.

But DA, you keep making comments like every detainee is innocent of the suspicions of terrorism that got them put in that place to begin with. These are recognized US combatants that were found on the battefield trying to killing our US soldiers.

There is also evidence of some of the detainees that were let go from guantanamo for lack of evidence that were rounded up a second time for attacking US soldiers. In my eyes, there's your burden of proof.

 

[Kuzeh]

But I don't think you will understand that...

My point exactly...


But just to humor you...
First, since the US is the "civilized" or more "advanced" country, the first thing to do, would be accepting that they've done wrong in the past and apologizing to ALL the countries invaded, all the innocent people massacred, and for arming the world and promoting conflict between countries by biased support...
That would do, far more than bombing villages all over the world...

 

[Mesa]

My point exactly...


But just to humor you...
First, since the US is the "civilized" or more "advanced" country, the first thing to do, would be accepting that they've done wrong in the past and apologizing to ALL the countries invaded, all the innocent people massacred, and for arming the world and promoting conflict between countries by biased support...
That would do, far more than bombing villages all over the world...

WTF?!?!! We're supposed to apologize to the world because some terrorists killed 3000 of our civilians and we decided to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Good plan.

Edit: I guess ending the genocide and ethnic cleansing that was taking place in Iraq under Saddam Hussein prior to the US invasion has already been forgotten as well and therefore doesn't count for anything.

 

[Voorhees27]

WTF?!?!! We're supposed to apologize to the world because some terrorists killed 3000 of our civilians and we decided to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Good plan.

Edit: I guess ending the genocide and ethnic cleansing that was taking place in Iraq under Saddam Hussein prior to the US invasion has already been forgotten as well and therefore doesn't count for anything.

You forgot to mention the war between Iraq and Iran in the 80's both sides weapons supplied by the good ol' U.S.A.

Saddam was probably one of the worst mid east puppets that had a change of heart, no more no less. Bush Sr. and Saddam were practically buddies at one time, but we don't want to talk about that right?

You were trying to make a point, keep going. Sorry to interrupt.

 

[DarkArtist81]

So far no one has been able to answer my question. How should we handle the situation of preventing suspected terrorists from continuing their plans to attack the US? I'm waiting for all the better ways we could do it that would be just as efficient in preventing a second attack in over seven years.

And DA, I hardly suspect that the majority of these people locked up in Guantanamo are innocent. I've already agreed that yes, unfortunately there is probably a very small percentage of people that maybe shouldn't be there, but I don't believe that is a large number, and we aren't a perfect people.

But DA, you keep making comments like every detainee is innocent of the suspicions of terrorism that got them put in that place to begin with. These are recognized US combatants that were found on the battefield trying to killing our US soldiers.

There is also evidence of some of the detainees that were let go from guantanamo for lack of evidence that were rounded up a second time for attacking US soldiers. In my eyes, there's your burden of proof.

I'm not saying that ALL are innocent, but the ways in which they are detained... even in situations where there is a severe lack of evidence.. it's wrong.

I think that we should be proactive in stopping future terrorism, but it should be done with at least a shred of dignity. We gather intel, and when we have probable cause, we go in and apprehend. We do not ignore our base beliefs or the detainees basic human rights. We prosecute and punish those who are proven without a reasonable doubt to be active terrorists pushing for aggressive actions against our country, but in coalition with the UN.

We are a people of rules and liberty, we do NOT throw those beliefs out the window simply because we were horribly attacked. We need to set the example internationally, if ever we are to be a country of conscience again.

It will do much for the self esteem of our people, but it will also give the terrorists less ammunition in recruiting people to their cause. Right now we are heading down a vicious cycle that will only incite more hate against us and inevitable attacks. We have to break that cycle and do the right thing.

I hope that clears it up for you, Scott. I think it's time we let go of our hate and do what is right.

 

[Entropy]

I'm not saying that ALL are innocent, but the ways in which they are detained... even in situations where there is a severe lack of evidence.. it's wrong.

I think that we should be proactive in stopping future terrorism, but it should be done with at least a shred of dignity. We gather intel, and when we have probable cause, we go in and apprehend. We do not ignore our base beliefs or the detainees basic human rights. We prosecute and punish those who are proven without a reasonable doubt to be active terrorists pushing for aggressive actions against our country, but in coalition with the UN.

We are a people of rules and liberty, we do NOT throw those beliefs out the window simply because we were horribly attacked. We need to set the example internationally, if ever we are to be a country of conscience again.

It will do much for the self esteem of our people, but it will also give the terrorists less ammunition in recruiting people to their cause. Right now we are heading down a vicious cycle that will only incite more hate against us and inevitable attacks. We have to break that cycle and do the right thing.

I hope that clears it up for you, Scott. I think it's time we let go of our hate and do what is right.

 

[Spartan Rex]

Actually that's why you're an extremist, because you apparently have no room for middle ground between those two extreme positions.

Holy ^^^^^......the...the ......f&#%ing irony.....










oh dear.....(sigh)

 

[Kuzeh]

WTF?!?!! We're supposed to apologize to the world because some terrorists killed 3000 of our civilians and we decided to protect ourselves by any means necessary. Good plan.

Edit: I guess ending the genocide and ethnic cleansing that was taking place in Iraq under Saddam Hussein prior to the US invasion has already been forgotten as well and therefore doesn't count for anything.

You don't seem to be able to read things, are you?....
Take a deep breath, go back to my post and READ again...
I was referring to ALL the history of the US foreign policy and the series of massacres and invasions they've done through the years...

So it seems like you expect dozens of countries to just love the US when they've killed tens of thousands of civilians in the name of "peace"...
Sorry man, this is my last comment, you're completely clueless, by any chance is your last name Bush?...

 

[Kabukiman]

nobody is just locking up innocent people.

Tell that to Sami al-Hajj.

 

[Darklord Dave]

At the risk of being flippant...

If Harold and Kumar can escape from it, how bad can it be?

 

[Mesa]

You don't seem to be able to read things, are you?....
Take a deep breath, go back to my post and READ again...
I was referring to ALL the history of the US foreign policy and the series of massacres and invasions they've done through the years...

So it seems like you expect dozens of countries to just love the US when they've killed tens of thousands of civilians in the name of "peace"...
Sorry man, this is my last comment, you're completely clueless, by any chance is your last name Bush?...

It's cool, it's the popular thing to do these days. Hate America. Blame America. And most popular, blame Bush. By the way, tell your countrymen to stop sneaking over the border into the US illegally and sucking of our growing socialist wellfare system, especially since the US is the scum of the earth, according to you.

This sort of response is exactly why I have no frickin' idea why the US extends humanitarian aid to other countries in need, repeatedly. We're hated for it. So I agree with you in that regard. I would like nothing more than the US to stop trying to police the world. I'm all for reverting to isolationism, unless provoked, which we were.

 

[DarkArtist81]

It's cool, it's the popular thing to do these days. Hate America. Blame America. And most popular, blame Bush. By the way, tell your countrymen to stop sneaking over the border into the US illegally and sucking of our growing socialist wellfare system, especially since the US is the scum of the earth, according to you.

This sort of response is exactly why I have no frickin' idea why the US extends humanitarian aid to other countries in need, repeatedly. We're hated for it. So I agree with you in that regard. I would like nothing more than the US to stop trying to police the world. I'm all for reverting to isolationism, unless provoked, which we were.

Dude, this post shows an udder lack of understanding for what Gitmo is for, and how it's been used, as well as Bush's involvement. As for the comment about Mexicans, very very bad thing to even say... Dude... come on.

And to stop being a peace keeping force, or lend aid to those who need it? Are you insane? You baffle me, Scott.

 

[Mesa]

You don't seem to be able to read things, are you?....
Take a deep breath, go back to my post and READ again...
I was referring to ALL the history of the US foreign policy and the series of massacres and invasions they've done through the years...

So it seems like you expect dozens of countries to just love the US when they've killed tens of thousands of civilians in the name of "peace"...
Sorry man, this is my last comment, you're completely clueless, by any chance is your last name Bush?...

It's cool, it's the popular thing to do these days. Hate America. Blame America. And most popular, blame Bush. By the way, tell your countrymen to stop sneaking over the border into the US illegally and sucking of our growing socialist wellfare system, especially since the US is the scum of the earth, according to you.

This sort of response is exactly why I have no frickin' idea why the US extends humanitarian aid to other countries in need, repeatedly. We're hated for it. So I agree with you in that regard. I would like nothing more than the US to stop trying to police the world. I'm all for reverting to isolationism, unless provoked, which we were.

Dude, this post shows an udder lack of understanding for what Gitmo is for, and how it's been used, as well as Bush's involvement. As for the comment about Mexicans, very very bad thing to even say... Dude... come on.

And to stop being a peace keeping force, or lend aid to those who need it? Are you insane? You baffle me, Scott.

Josh, you proved my point. Kuzeh is slamming the US and I'm trying to defend it. And what does a liberal do (i.e. you), defend the one slamming the US, rather than come to it's defense. Just like you and the other liberals defend the civil rights of the suspected terrorists rather than be concerned with innocent American's right to live in peace and not in fear of another attack. It's become the popular thing to do. Hate on America.

Keep on doing it. "Change" is coming. The lack of patriotism for our core values, the dissapearance of a free market capitalist society that rewards those willing to work towards success rather than looking for govenrment handouts, more dependency on the government, and sympathy and cooperation towards those that mean us harm.


And what's so bad about my comment on illegal immigration? Hello? I live in Arizona, which shares a border with Mexico. Illegal immigration is rampant. And illegals are sapping the system for all the free social services the government wants to dole out.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Josh, you proved my point. Kuzeh is slamming the US and I'm trying to defend it. And what does a liberal do (i.e. you), defend the one slamming the US, rather than come to it's defense. Just like you and the other liberals defend the civil rights of the suspected terrorists rather than be concerned with innocent American's right to live in peace and not in fear of another attack. It's become the popular thing to do. Hate on America.

Keep on doing it. "Change" is coming. The lack of patriotism for our core values, the dissapearance of a free market capitalist society that rewards those willing to work towards success rather than looking for govenrment handouts, more dependency on the government, and sympathy and cooperation towards those that mean us harm.


And what's so bad about my comment on illegal immigration? Hello? I live in Arizona, which shares a border with Mexico. Illegal immigration is rampant. And illegals are sapping the system for all the free social services the government wants to dole out.

First off, NEVER ever....ever... question my patriotism or belief in the core values that this country was built upon. I have shed blood for this country, and I deeply believe in it. Including the constitution, which GITMO tears apart... and well... Bush has all but defecated on it in his 8 years as Dictator in Chief.

And my being Liberal has nothing to do with my last post, I was primarily responding to what you said. Kuzeh was talking about the "shadow" America we have become, in which rights and our... um.. well.. CORE VALUES.. have gone to the wayside. Your post just struck me as slightly skewed... so I had to respond.

I don't want us to lose what our country is built on, and I certainly don't want sympathy for those who have tried to attack us or we have concrete evidence that will attack us. I just believe in a country with dignity, a place that we can be proud to be a part of.

But seriously, tell me that I am not a patriot again... and I swear... we will have a war. You will not like it, I assure you.

 

[pixletwin]

Lets cool of guys. I am going to close this thread and we can reopen it tomorrow.

 

[Mesa]

my thoughts on the US current position in the world

Sorry Pix, you can immediately close this thread, delete it if you must. I had it all typed, then the previous thread got closed. But I have to get it off my chest.

In response to DA's comment.

https://sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42787&page=8
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First off, NEVER ever....ever... question my patriotism or belief in the core values that this country was built upon. I have shed blood for this country, and I deeply believe in it. Including the constitution, which GITMO tears apart... and well... Bush has all but defecated on it in his 8 years as Dictator in Chief.

And my being Liberal has nothing to do with my last post, I was primarily responding to what you said. Kuzeh was talking about the "shadow" America we have become, in which rights and our... um.. well.. CORE VALUES.. have gone to the wayside. Your post just struck me as slightly skewed... so I had to respond.

I don't want us to lose what our country is built on, and I certainly don't want sympathy for those who have tried to attack us or we have concrete evidence that will attack us. I just believe in a country with dignity, a place that we can be proud to be a part of.

But seriously, tell me that I am not a patriot again... and I swear... we will have a war. You will not like it, I assure you.

Sorry man, I apologize. I'll explain myself by saying that I am seriously upset that there is so much hatred being expressed towards America. Not just on this board, but everywhere. in the world's eye, the US sux. We're viewed as evil tyrants. I'm not so blind that I can't see that some of it is warranted, but bottom line is that we were attacked and we took the necessary precautions to prevent that sort of thing from ahppeneing again. Was it pretty? No. Did we piss some people off? Absolutely. Have we been attacked again? No. Are the terrorists at less of an advantage because of our efforts and detainments. Yes.

I don't know what people expect here. A pretty picture where we work things out civilly with the enemy? Things don't work that way in the real world, regardless of what party is in the White House. In war, people are going to be killed, mistreated, and hurt. Since when has war ever been fair or perfect? It's a ridiculous thing to even consider we (the US) will only perform righteous moves and not make any mistakes along the way. We are humans. Fighting for our lives.

And it's getting to me when I see people bad mouthing the country I love.

And I ask again, why should the US even bother with trying to aid and assist ANY countries that are in our need, when ultimately all the US is remembered for is being harbingers of death and destruction, with absolutely no mention of the positive things we have done for other countries.

We dump humanitarian aid, money, resources, infrastructure into other countries and the world basically spits in our face for it.

People blame the US for going to war into Iraq. Has everyone forgotten the tragedies that were allowed to occcur there before the US stepped in? Have we forgotten the ethnic cleansing? Or the rape rooms? or the torture rooms? How about the mass graves that were uncovered? Sure, WOMD were never found, but evidence that they did indeed exist was found. But WOMD isn't the only thing we went to war for in Iraq. The US was trying to free an oppressed people from a ruthless dictator. HAS EVERYONE FORGOTTEN THAT???? The US didn't commit those acts of atrocity. Iraq's own dictator did, to his own people. And when the US does the right thing and tries to remove him from power, we get criticized for trying to help those in need.

So I say ^^^^ it!!! ^^^^ Iraq, ^^^^ Iran, ^^^^ afghanistan, ^^^^ Syria, ^^^^ Darfur, ^^^^ Russia, ^^^^ Georgia, ^^^^ North Korea, (am I forgetting anyone?), oh yeah, China, ^^^^ China and retreat and take care of our own. The US can't win. We'll be hated no matter what we do. Come to a helpess country's aid that is in need, and we're deemed invaders by the world and don't belong there. Sit back and watch the ^^^^ go down, and we're evil and not compassionate.

And I guarantee you that if one of these Guantanamo prisoners were to be let go and then found to be responsible for a devasting dirty bomb attack, the general public would blame Bush for not doing enough and not trying to protect us.

I'm just sick of all this ^^^^ing bull ^^^^. US can't win for trying.

 

[IrishJedi]

Re: my thoughts on the US current position in the world

For the record, I would not doubt the patriotism of anyone on this board... whether my fellow Americans or our Canadian friends or our pals from the UK, Australia, Croatia and all over the world who join us here. I think most people genuinely feel pride in their country and where they live and there's not a thing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean you always have to be happy with how things are.

As Charlie Chaplin (an Englishman, btw) once said, "I love America. I owe it everything... and that's precisely why I can criticize it."

But, screw it... the stuff that really matters is what has brought us all here together: Movies, TV, Comics, and COLLECTING!