Dune Part Two (October 20th, 2023)

[Wor-Gar]

As always, he was Walken. Totally took me out of the movie. He gives Malkovich a run for his money as best self-parody. Had no idea who he and Pugh were supposed to be other than their emperor of the universe titles.

Overall the movie felt slow, self-important and more like a style exercise than great storytelling - eternally bogged down in am-I-the-chosen-one boredom l(ike the SW PT) with poor Javier Bardem like John Hurt's Oxley from Indy 4 (crazy homeless believer) and if there was a single moment of humor/levity in that near-three hours, I indeed missed it. Villeneuve and Nolan really should have done that standup class 25 years ago.

Just muddled - the ending with baldy Elvis-the-knife being a case in point (he's just standing in the background, having gone with his uncle, suddenly he's fighting for the emporer he's never met?), following the most anticlimactic final battle I've seen in a while, where the underdogs suddenly seem to become the favorites five minutes later. And the Zendaya moment at the very end is just plain silly/confected (no spoliers, but no way she would have believed what Timothy says to Walken re Pugh excpt as an expedient bluff.)

Visually stunning even if the blown-out, desaturated look was waaay overused, like five hours of "300" in one sitting, and it almost wasted some of the stellar locations and FX. Some really well done sequences but overall this was Avatar Desert Edition to me, with a man-juice sacred well standing in for the tree o' life or whatever that Jim Cameron jungle hokum was. And poor Dave Bautista - it was like Villeneuve decided they had to clear the villain decks for Elvis so poor ol Dave had to be turned from badass to total wuss.

Missed the Spice Navigator that Lynch did so well, and did kinda feel like Baron Harkonnen was a bit more fun in Lynch's version. You can see why they chose Lynch way back when - when your hero is teamed up with his pregnant mother who's in active conversation with her unborn foetus, people are telepathically whispering and you got a morbidly obese pustule as your villain, Lynch is your man.

And yes I do bring up Lynch due to Villeneuve's fun homage to DL, ants and all.

This seems to go against everything I have read...

Can it be true?

Is it the spice?

 

[Felinx]

This seems to go against everything I have read...

Can it be true?

Is it the spice?

In this vac-metalized plastic age of cinema, this and Oppenheimer are Citizen Kane. So yes it's true, but in context no it isn't.

I watch Sicario every year and it blows me away every single time but I do hope Villeneuve has not committed to the Peter Jackson route as another IP auteur plowing through the studio's list of adaptations and updates.

The spice is strange in that it is endlessly referenced yet there is little exploration of it and why it so enthralls the universe. I would also heartily recommend the Fremen look into water importation and storage rather than investing in more tear/nose-drip catcher or body-fluid sucker technology. It does kinda make them look pretty foolish given the futuristic tech on show.

And I did snicker when its mentioned that the planet completely covered in sand dunes was for some mystical reason called a Fremen word originally... DUNE. Its like a squinty Costner mystically speaking of what the fabled ancestors called waterworld: WAVES.

The use of Arabic and Muslim terms (Mahdi, Jinn, the fundamentalist South, Holy Jihad etc) - Herbert's obsession between mushrooms - as well as Villeneuve visually showing the Fremen pretty much as Arab/Sudanese Muslims in prayer, dress and ethnicity I felt was a mistake, even though I get that a myopic view of colonialism is a Western arts-humanities obsession currently (I was waiting for some dreadlock blue-cat people to arrive, plugged into sand worms, to help in that abysmal final battle sequencxe.)

Not surprising though given Villenenuve being a French Canadian, with their connection to struggle and terrorism in the era of Villeneuve's childhood (current PM Trudeau's father led the fight against the quite brutal but long-forgotten French-speaker terrorism in Canada.)

A discussion of Villenueve's complete mishandling of the sand worms follows....

 

[Jmek]

Ahh the sand worms, it looked like the actors were surfing on the sand.

 

[jye4ever]

As always, he was Walken. Totally took me out of the movie. He gives Malkovich a run for his money as best self-parody. Had no idea who he and Pugh were supposed to be other than their emperor of the universe titles.

Overall the movie felt slow, self-important and more like a style exercise than great storytelling - eternally bogged down in am-I-the-chosen-one boredom l(ike the SW PT) with poor Javier Bardem like John Hurt's Oxley from Indy 4 (crazy homeless believer) and if there was a single moment of humor/levity in that near-three hours, I indeed missed it. Villeneuve and Nolan really should have done that standup class 25 years ago.

Just muddled - the ending with baldy Elvis-the-knife being a case in point (he's just standing in the background, having gone with his uncle, suddenly he's fighting for the emporer he's never met?), following the most anticlimactic final battle I've seen in a while, where the underdogs suddenly seem to become the favorites five minutes later. And the Zendaya moment at the very end is just plain silly/confected (no spoliers, but no way she would have believed what Timothy says to Walken re Pugh excpt as an expedient bluff.)

Visually stunning even if the blown-out, desaturated look was waaay overused, like five hours of "300" in one sitting, and it almost wasted some of the stellar locations and FX. Some really well done sequences but overall this was Avatar Desert Edition to me, with a man-juice sacred well standing in for the tree o' life or whatever that Jim Cameron jungle hokum was. And poor Dave Bautista - it was like Villeneuve decided they had to clear the villain decks for Elvis so poor ol Dave had to be turned from badass to total wuss.

Missed the Spice Navigator that Lynch did so well, and did kinda feel like Baron Harkonnen was a bit more fun in Lynch's version. You can see why they chose Lynch way back when - when your hero is teamed up with his pregnant mother who's in active conversation with her unborn foetus, people are telepathically whispering and you got a morbidly obese pustule as your villain, Lynch is your man.

And yes I do bring up Lynch due to Villeneuve's fun homage to DL, ants and all.

OK here goes…

when I left the theater I could have easily pivoted and agreed with you 100% on every word you just said, every single word, not kidding.

I could’ve easily channeled my inner Oto-Gar cynicism into full gear…

But…

But then I remembered the current climate we exist in with Madame Webb, Eternals, Shazam and the Force is Female….and then I came to my immediate senses and thought…hey wait a minute i’m no masochist why the hell would I ever turn sour on this thrilling modern version of a 40’s/50’s style bible epic!

You feel this movie in your bones, you experience it you’re not just watching it, it provokes you.

Therefore…

If the visuals and sounds didn’t move you, if the scale and action didn’t thrill you, if the acting and story arcs didn’t impress you, if the mythology didn’t entice you and the worms, gladiator arena and final knife fight didn’t pump you up then…..

May I suggest you hold a burial service for Hollywood because it’s all downhill from Dune 2 lol

Curious are you a diehard Dune book purist?

I’m asking for a friend lol

Wor-Gar don’t need any help being cynical you tell him how your obsession with the books has clouded your judgement and made you speak ill of Dune 2 as if it were a new Star Wars movie lol

 

[Wor-Gar]

If the visuals and sounds didn’t move you, if the scale and action didn’t thrill you, if the acting and story arcs didn’t impress you, if the mythology didn’t entice you and the worms, gladiator arena and final knife fight didn’t pump you up then…..

May I suggest you hold a burial service for Hollywood because it’s all downhill from Dune 2 lol

Wow.... this sounds glorious....

But then, yeah, the 2nd part.

 

[jye4ever]

Imax and Dolby Screens were made for this epic visual and sonic orgasm.

This is sci-fi LOTR.

I’m not dismissing Rotfish’s take on Walken’s sleepy demeanor or Felinx’s opinion that the movie is as shallow as Rebel Moon.

All i’m saying is that my jaw was on the ground because it was nice to experience…not watch…but experience the “movie that can’t be made” presented in such an awesome grandeur spectacle with attention to detail normally reserved to how I watch Abella Danger.

This movie cost less to make than a current Fast and Furious or Transformers movie.

Remember when Leganday who paid 80% of Dune 1 and Dune 2 sued previous WB for the stunt they pulled on Dune 1.

Now look where we are.

Epic.

 

[Punisher75]

As always, he was Walken. Totally took me out of the movie. He gives Malkovich a run for his money as best self-parody. Had no idea who he and Pugh were supposed to be other than their emperor of the universe titles.

Overall the movie felt slow, self-important and more like a style exercise than great storytelling - eternally bogged down in am-I-the-chosen-one boredom l(ike the SW PT) with poor Javier Bardem like John Hurt's Oxley from Indy 4 (crazy homeless believer) and if there was a single moment of humor/levity in that near-three hours, I indeed missed it. Villeneuve and Nolan really should have done that standup class 25 years ago.

Just muddled - the ending with baldy Elvis-the-knife being a case in point (he's just standing in the background, having gone with his uncle, suddenly he's fighting for the emporer he's never met?), following the most anticlimactic final battle I've seen in a while, where the underdogs suddenly seem to become the favorites five minutes later. And the Zendaya moment at the very end is just plain silly/confected (no spoliers, but no way she would have believed what Timothy says to Walken re Pugh excpt as an expedient bluff.)

Visually stunning even if the blown-out, desaturated look was waaay overused, like five hours of "300" in one sitting, and it almost wasted some of the stellar locations and FX. Some really well done sequences but overall this was Avatar Desert Edition to me, with a man-juice sacred well standing in for the tree o' life or whatever that Jim Cameron jungle hokum was. And poor Dave Bautista - it was like Villeneuve decided they had to clear the villain decks for Elvis so poor ol Dave had to be turned from badass to total wuss.

Missed the Spice Navigator that Lynch did so well, and did kinda feel like Baron Harkonnen was a bit more fun in Lynch's version. You can see why they chose Lynch way back when - when your hero is teamed up with his pregnant mother who's in active conversation with her unborn foetus, people are telepathically whispering and you got a morbidly obese pustule as your villain, Lynch is your man.

And yes I do bring up Lynch due to Villeneuve's fun homage to DL, ants and all.

I could not agree with you more, except on two points I didn't find either film visually stunning, I found them a cold, minimalist, bleached out bore to look at! the other point I disagree on is Austin Butler as Feyd was the best performance in the film even if they made his character seem way too honorable as opposed to the nasty snake he is in the novel.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Felinx’s opinion that the movie is as shallow as Rebel Moon.

Shhhhhh... stupid hobbitses... he's coming now.... he's coming....


*Alatar's footsteps grow louder and louder still...*

 

[JAWS]

Wow.... this sounds glorious....

But then, yeah, the 2nd part.

Its a really good movie... Just shy of Greatness.

Who knows upon a second viewing it just may achieve greatness.

If you liked the first film I can't see why you would not like this one.

If you didn't like the first.... Skip this.


This very much reminds me of LOTR in that it has sparked my interest to go deeper into the lore, while never reading the books

And like LOTR it enriches the film where its ok that not every Tom Bombadil is in the film and not everything is spelled out.

If one loves the books i can see why there may be disappointment.

If you love EPIC Sci Fi films you should be happy with this one.

 

[JAWS]

I could not agree with you more, except on two points I didn't find either film visually stunning, I found them a cold, minimalist, bleached out bore to look at! the other point I disagree on is Austin Butler as Feyd was the best performance in the film even if they made his character seem way too honorable as opposed to the nasty snake he is in the novel.

Interesting thing... I love washed out looks more on my home theater then in the actual theaters... It can be a bit overwhelming.

 

[Wor-Gar]

One more reason Fury Road is Epic --> it goes opposite of the "wash-out" or "desaturated look"

 

[Sixth Scale Man]

Not sure it’s all washed out and desaturated. The opening with the eclipse was a beautiful hue. Giedi Prime was justifiably devoid of color and it felt magnificently other-worldly.
I’ll echo that it is an experience. I saw it in a non-IMAX theatre but the seats still rumbled.
It may not hold the emotional heft of LOTR but I felt invested for the most part. Perfect? Not sure yet. It does feel a little distant, but the feeling of being transported to other worlds and engulfed in a weird, brutal, balls-out experience is appreciated in this current cinematic climate.

 

[jye4ever]

I didn’t read the books yet I know that Herbert’s main concern was that Paul was viewed by the fans as a hero and Denis made that his primary focus for non readers and actually gave characters with less influence in the books much more presence in the service of honoring Herbert’s main concerns which Herbert’s family collaborated on from what I understand.

How this movie even exists is a miracle if you want a great superhero movie well here it is.

Paul was the focus not Bautista’s screen time or Walken’s demeanor or the spice character arc lol

It delivered on Paul, you know the main character of the story.

I can’t wait to go again with my son next weekend and maybe again with friends, the little that I do have lol

 

[JAWS]

I didn’t read the books yet I know that Herbert’s main concern was that Paul was viewed by the fans as a hero and Denis made that his primary focus for non readers and actually gave characters with less influence in the books much more presence in the service of honoring Herbert’s main concerns which Herbert’s family collaborated on from what I understand.

How this movie even exists is a miracle if you want a great superhero movie well here it is.

Paul was the focus not Bautista’s screen time or Walken’s demeanor or the spice character arc lol

It delivered on Paul, you know the main character of the story.

I can’t wait to go again with my son next weekend and maybe again with friends, the little that I do have lol

I can’t get over how good the actor was in the role. I was worried about him when trailers of the first film came out. Not really seen him in anything else.

5 min into the first film my fears were laid to rest. That kid has charisma!!

 

[JAWS]

And the Zendaya moment at the very end is just plain silly

What was silly? I’ve read this a couple of times. Did I miss something??

 

[JAWS]

BTW.. Last three films I seen in theaters

1. Dune 2
2. Madam Web
3. Godzilla Minus One

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Overall the movie felt slow, self-important and more like a style exercise than great storytelling - eternally bogged down in am-I-the-chosen-one boredom l(ike the SW PT) with poor Javier Bardem like John Hurt's Oxley from Indy 4 (crazy homeless believer) and if there was a single moment of humor/levity in that near-three hours, I indeed missed it. Villeneuve and Nolan really should have done that standup class 25 years ago.

Visually stunning even if the blown-out, desaturated look was waaay overused, like five hours of "300" in one sitting, and it almost wasted some of the stellar locations and FX. Some really well done sequences but overall this was Avatar Desert Edition to me, with a man-juice sacred well standing in for the tree o' life or whatever that Jim Cameron jungle hokum was. And poor Dave Bautista - it was like Villeneuve decided they had to clear the villain decks for Elvis so poor ol Dave had to be turned from badass to total wuss.

If Frank Herbert was alive today and submitted two scripts, what we got in Dune 1 and 2 here from Villeneuve, and we existed in a hypothetical world where Dune did not exist as it does as a legacy iconic series that has stood the test of time, then they both would be rejected.

I respect what Herbert did as as rare generational level writer, the Dune canon and it's total impact overall, but here's what would be changed in this hypothetical

- The entire Bene Gesserit arc would have been totally excised

- Duke Leto Atreides would be the central character

- Irulan would be converted to a son ( mixed with Feyd and Beast Rabban as a composite) and Alia would not exist

- Duke Leto and the Emperor would be melded together.

- Duncan Idaho, Gurney Hallock and others would be rolled into Baron Harkonnen ( who would not be the size of a cow). Who would serve under Duke Leto as his main general. And his linkage to Lady Jessica would not be a secret.

- The "loss" for Paul would not be Duke Leto, but instead Lady Jessica.

- Chani would be the singular love interest and the defacto leader of the Fremen when Paul finds them.

- There would not be an entire "universe" to rule, just a conflict between two planets, Caladan ( the water planet) and Arrakis ( the desert planet)

I enjoyed both Dune films, I hold Villeneuve in high regard period as a legitimate pure filmmaker of the highest order. I respect what Herbert achieved and understand there is a diehard legacy fanbase that would see any minor change as pure heresy.

But the truth is there are too many characters. There are too many side plots and themes that don't have enough coverage to give real justice to them like in the novels. The practical conflict resides with Duke Leto, and not Paul. These scripts would never survive hard vetting in the industry if this was any other situation. In effect, by taking on this project, Villeneuve made the decision, on his own, to walk into an ambush. He chose to be forced into a corner. There's a reason why there have been sparse attempts to really dig into this IP otherwise. It's unwieldy.

I'll hold to what I've always said. If you love the books but are so so on the films, then at least the films are a gateway to create more readers of the books themselves. For an entire new generation. So that Dune can remain truly "timeless" in that regard. For those who have seen Arrival, Villeneuve converted Ted Chiang's short story and I'd consider that to be almost completely non filmable in any other context. Whether or not people love or hate Arrival, that Villeneuve could translate it into an actual narrative within the film medium is IMHO a staggering achievement. The talent is there. The passion is there. This Dune mountain is just a tough one to climb.

 

[jye4ever]

Dune 2 and Shogun I had a great weekend

 

[Rotfish]

 

[JAWS]

Dune 2 and Shogun I had a great weekend

So shogun is worth the time?