General NBA Discussion

[WWEJedi]

Its funny how many Jordan lovers are here and cant admit he is not as great as he is made out to be. Video proof provided and Just more excuses to try to back up his all time greatness. Then you complain about Lebron fans making excuses.... when you do the same with trying to defend Jordan as GOAT when the only thing he holds is the highest PPG and six rings aided by the greatest three point shooter of all time and five hall of famers.

 

[filip629]

Yup, and Jordan can thank Steve Kerr and John Paxson for two of his rings too.

Dude, you either are deluded or a fool. The 1st game back against the Knicks MJ dropped a double nickel on them. 55 points. They trailed at the end of the game. MJ had the ball and attacked the basket. The ENTIRE NY defense collapsed on him. Bill Wennington was all alone under the basket. MJ hit him and he had the easiest dunk of his life. I guess you'd say Wennington won the game. These shooters are wide open because of the threat MJ posed on the floor at all times. They were more than happy to ride MJ's coattails to multiple rings. You complain that too many peeps are dogging LeBron and yet you have nothing but problems acknowledging what a great player MJ was. 6-0 in the Finals, 6 time Finals MVP, and he should have won the League MVP just about every year he played in the League during his prime. MJ was a BEAST whether you like him or not. His legacy is cemented. If Lebron doesn't win a few more titles, the weight of his failures will be like cement on his feet as his legacy sinks to the bottom of the river. As it stands right now, he's just got potential.

 

[WWEJedi]

Personally, I don't buy a single player the best of all time thinking. I enjoy both Jordan and James for what they do / did.

James controls the game for 48 mins. which includes the last minutes. The difference being folks accepting him controlling the game "his way" regardless the scenario vs folks expecting him to switch to a raging scoring machine to dominate the game. The later never being his game.

What player (who lost in the finals) suddenly changed their style of play to win? Bryant decide to become a distributor? Duncan or Shaq jump beyond the arc? Of course not...they played their game. I'd expect the same for any player....continue doing what got you to that point win or lose. Unfortunately being a Cavs fan, we endured two losses but I don't fault all that on James style of play. I'd rather have him then not have him....

Agree to disagree I suppose.....

Great post. To bad the Lebron haters cant appreciate it like they cant appreciate James himself.

 

[WWEJedi]

Dude, you either are deluded or a fool. The 1st game back against the Knicks MJ dropped a double nickel on them. 55 points. They trailed at the end of the game. MJ had the ball and attacked the basket. The ENTIRE NY defense collapsed on him. Bill Wennington was all alone under the basket. MJ hit him and he had the easiest dunk of his life. I guess you'd say Wennington won the game. These shooters are wide open because of the threat MJ posed on the floor at all times. They were more than happy to ride MJ's coattails to multiple rings. You complain that too many peeps are dogging LeBron and yet you have nothing but problems acknowledging what a great player MJ was. 6-0 in the Finals, 6 time Finals MVP, and he should have won the League MVP just about every year he played in the League during his prime. MJ was a BEAST whether you like him or not. His legacy is cemented. If Lebron doesn't win a few more titles, the weight of his failures will be like cement on his feet as his legacy sinks to the bottom of the river. As it stands right now, he's just got potential.

Clearly you are a little upset your hero MJ is being questioned. If you cant tell, that was a sarcastic post, thats why I added the

But dont make excuses for Lebron having Ray Allen help him win a ring when Jordan had it happen for him twice.

 

[filip629]

The Shot didnt lead to anything, signing Pippen did. Dont lie to yourself.

The only person lying to himself is you. If you are going to sit here and say MJ wasn't the driving force for EVERY single ring the bulls won, we can all laugh out load at your reasoning. As a matter of fact, I'm doing it right now as you type on your keyboard.

 

[WWEJedi]

The only person lying to himself is you. If you are going to sit here and say MJ wasn't the driving force for EVERY single ring the bulls won, we can all laugh out load at your reasoning. As a matter of fact, I'm doing it right now as you type on your keyboard.

MJ was the driving force behind every ring just as Lebron was with his two. I never said he wasn't so stop putting words in my mouth. Its just that, he was not as much of a driving force behind every ring as people like you think.

Im using an Ipad, not a keyboard

 

[filip629]

Its just that, he was not as much of a driving force behind every ring as people like you think.

For the record these are your words. I don't care how you typed them. This is exactly what I meant about having a good laugh. You are essentially contradicting yourself. He's either a driving force, or he's not. There's no doubt that anyone with some basketball IQ will tell you, no MJ, no rings.

As for your need to jab MJ's success with Pip, Pippen is a great player. However, let's not forget who he was when he was drafted. A soft, skinny kid, who couldn't play with the big boys. Pip didn't become a great player until MJ dogged him out in practice and schooled him daily. Pip didn't have the mental or physical toughness of MJ. Who had to sit during a physical playoff game because of a migraine? Who's back was hurting during game 6 rendering them ineffective against the Jazz as MJ could barely stand because of the flu and he hit the game winning shot? Every member of those championship Bulls knows why they had the success they had, even if you don't.

 

[sarakawa]

For the record these are your words. I don't care how you typed them. This is exactly what I meant about having a good laugh. You are essentially contradicting yourself. He's either a driving force, or he's not. There's no doubt that anyone with some basketball IQ will tell you, no MJ, no rings.

As for your need to jab MJ's success with Pip, Pippen is a great player. However, let's not forget who he was when he was drafted. A soft, skinny kid, who couldn't play with the big boys. Pip didn't become a great player until MJ dogged him out in practice and schooled him daily. Pip didn't have the mental or physical toughness of MJ. Who had to sit during a physical playoff game because of a migraine? Who's back was hurting during game 6 rendering them ineffective against the Jazz as MJ could barely stand because of the flu and he hit the game winning shot? Every member of those championship Bulls knows why they had the success they had, even if you don't.

Pippin was a massive punk while Jordan was out for 2 years too. Then when MJ came back, falls right back into line. For you Lebron fans who say he can't change his game, why not for just the last few minutes? That makes no sense. If Lebron having to take every big shot in the last few minutes of a game gets his team the win, that's what he should do. It has nothing to do with his game. He should do whatever it takes. Not just whatever it takes for 45 minutes. By the way, I've already stated I think Lebron is a phenomenal player. So don't call me a hater. But there are things he can still do to get better. Killer instinct in the last few minutes is one of them IMO.

 

[filip629]

Pippin was a massive punk while Jordan was out for 2 years too. Then when MJ came back, falls right back into line. For you Lebron fans who say he can't change his game, why not for just the last few minutes? That makes no sense. If Lebron having to take every big shot in the last few minutes of a game gets his team the win, that's what he should do. It has nothing to do with his game. He should do whatever it takes. Not just whatever it takes for 45 minutes. By the way, I've already stated I think Lebron is a phenomenal player. So don't call me a hater. But there are things he can still do to get better. Killer instinct in the last few minutes is one of them IMO.

The problem is that peeps like MJ are essentially born with that killer instinct. Take a look at Kobe. As a rookie he's taking the last shot during a playoff game. He missed. It didn't matter, he hasn't stopped shooting since. The great ones are just born with that attitude. They lead and everyone else falls in line.

 

[WWEJedi]

For the record these are your words. I don't care how you typed them. This is exactly what I meant about having a good laugh. You are essentially contradicting yourself. He's either a driving force, or he's not. There's no doubt that anyone with some basketball IQ will tell you, no MJ, no rings.

As for your need to jab MJ's success with Pip, Pippen is a great player. However, let's not forget who he was when he was drafted. A soft, skinny kid, who couldn't play with the big boys. Pip didn't become a great player until MJ dogged him out in practice and schooled him daily. Pip didn't have the mental or physical toughness of MJ. Who had to sit during a physical playoff game because of a migraine? Who's back was hurting during game 6 rendering them ineffective against the Jazz as MJ could barely stand because of the flu and he hit the game winning shot? Every member of those championship Bulls knows why they had the success they had, even if you don't.

Theres your attitude again. Lets say the bulls contributions credit totaled 100 percent. If i had to give Jordan a grade for those contributions it would probably be around 25/100. Give Phil another 25 and Pippen 20. Now if you did this, you would give Jordan 99/100 percent of the credit. Blinded by love for a jerk of a human being called Jordan.

 

[WWEJedi]

Pippin was a massive punk while Jordan was out for 2 years too. Then when MJ came back, falls right back into line. For you Lebron fans who say he can't change his game, why not for just the last few minutes? That makes no sense. If Lebron having to take every big shot in the last few minutes of a game gets his team the win, that's what he should do. It has nothing to do with his game. He should do whatever it takes. Not just whatever it takes for 45 minutes. By the way, I've already stated I think Lebron is a phenomenal player. So don't call me a hater. But there are things he can still do to get better. Killer instinct in the last few minutes is one of them IMO.

Final seconds of playoffs game.

Jordan 5-11
Edit... Lebron 7-13

 

[filip629]

Theres your attitude again. Lets say the bulls contributions credit totaled 100 percent. If i had to give Jordan a grade for those contributions it would probably be around 25/100. Give Phil another 25 and Pippen 20. Now if you did this, you would give Jordan 99/100 percent of the credit. Blinded by love for a jerk of a human being called Jordan.

I don't love MJ. I'm from Chicago. I know just how much of an A-hole he can be from 1st hand experience. That doesn't change the fact that MJ was a phenomenal basketball player. Where you and I differ is that 25% of a teams success doesn't equal driving force. I would never say he's responsible for 99% but he counted way more than the 25% you give him credit for.

 

[Royce12]

WWEJedi.. I was a big Jordan fan and I went without having a new favorite player until Lebron. I am now a Lebron fan even though he frustrates the heck out of me sometimes. I think you are overly downplaying MJ. There is a reason why everyone considers Jordan the best ever including former players. It's not just Jordan fans who acknowledge this.

I think you are ignoring lots of his accomplishments like Defensive Player of the Year, 10 time scoring champion, 3 time steals leader, scored 20 or more points in 159 of 179 playoff games, 1st player with 200 steals & 100 blocked shots in a season, only player to ever lead the league in scoring, win MVP and win Defensive player of the year in the same season and he is the only guard in NBA history to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks during a playoff series. That is some very impressive stuff that you dismiss by saying all he owns is PPG and rings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

This thread got popcorn worthy over night. Deez, Filip, Royce, Sara and Ink covered everything. Good job gents.

Nobody said Jordan hit the game winning shot in the playoffs every single time, he wasn't perfect and he didn't do it alone - we all know that. However, there's no disputing how many clutch shots MJ did hit that vaulted him to legendary status. At this moment, I can't think of single one for Lebron - just Ray Allen hitting that killer shot - and he's played in 6 Finals already in his 12th NBA season.

This debate has never been about supporting cast it's been about individual game of MJ & LBJ.

Don't think anyone he is disputing how great a b ball player James is and will continue to be, we are disputing he is better than Jordan

This.

Personally, I don't buy a single player the best of all time thinking. I enjoy both Jordan and James for what they do / did.

James controls the game for 48 mins. which includes the last minutes. The difference being folks accepting him controlling the game "his way" regardless the scenario vs folks expecting him to switch to a raging scoring machine to dominate the game. The later never being his game.

What player (who lost in the finals) suddenly changed their style of play to win? Bryant decide to become a distributor? Duncan or Shaq jump beyond the arc? Of course not...they played their game. I'd expect the same for any player....continue doing what got you to that point win or lose. Unfortunately being a Cavs fan, we endured two losses but I don't fault all that on James style of play. I'd rather have him then not have him....

Agree to disagree I suppose.....

To answer your question What player suddenly changed their style of play to win? the answer is - any great one.

You keep saying Lebron doesn't need to change his game, but you're forgetting he has already. When he came into the league the first few years, he was an absolutely atrocious post up player, completely awful with his back to the rim. His ranged game was mediocre at best as well. Through work and practice LBJ has went from awful in those situations to a threat, a pretty well rounded player which he was not initially. That is change.

Also as Sara noted, if you keep losing in the Finals why wouldn't you change your game? Clearly he isn't happy with the same result so making a change seems to be the common sense approach.

Watching LBJ kick the ball to guys like JR Smith with Finals games on the line is like watching the Seattle Seahawks run a pass play from the NE 2 yd line instead of handing the ball to Marshawn 'Beast Mode' Lynch with the Super Bowl on the line.

 

[filip629]

I agree with you Y4NK. Great players games evolve over time. MJ was a dunking machine early in his career. As he got older, he developed a killer jump shot to supplement his game. He became a much more dangerous player. He could still attack the rim but if you left him alone, his jumper could still do massive damage. However, players like MJ, Bird, Reggie, Magic, Kobe, etc....always had a scorers mentality. They wanted/needed to score. I don't know if LeBron has the ability to change from a facilitator to scorer. It would require him to completely change his game. I'm not sure he could do that. LeBron generally doesn't do well with pressure. The more weight on his shoulders the less comfortable he feels. The players I mentioned above were thrilled to play the game with high stakes. No game was too big or situation too pressue packed. They not only lived for those moments, they welcomed them.

LeBron has a chance to add to his legacy. He's not getting any younger. If he doesn't seize his opportunities soon, it won't be any easier as he gets older. However, to get it done, he'll have to take over games. His style will have to change and he will have to become a much better leader. Oh, and the Cavs have to find a real coach. What LeBron is doing to Blatt is a joke. He'll need someone with a mind for the game and that can command respect. If he keeps undermining his coach, other players will follow his lead. The Cavs are a good team but their chemistry is a mess. That can easily derail future championship aspirations. He has about a 4 year window before his skills start to erode and father time starts creeping in. Let's see what he can do for the Cavs if he doesn't jump ship again looking for an easier route back to the Finals.

 

[WWEJedi]

I agree with you Y4NK. Great players games evolve over time. MJ was a dunking machine early in his career. As he got older, he developed a killer jump shot to supplement his game. He became a much more dangerous player. He could still attack the rim but if you left him alone, his jumper could still do massive damage. However, players like MJ, Bird, Reggie, Magic, Kobe, etc....always had a scorers mentality. They wanted/needed to score. I don't know if LeBron has the ability to change from a facilitator to scorer. It would require him to completely change his game. I'm not sure he could do that. LeBron generally doesn't do well with pressure. The more weight on his shoulders the less comfortable he feels. The players I mentioned above were thrilled to play the game with high stakes. No game was too big or situation too pressue packed. They not only lived for those moments, they welcomed them.

LeBron has a chance to add to his legacy. He's not getting any younger. If he doesn't seize his opportunities soon, it won't be any easier as he gets older. However, to get it done, he'll have to take over games. His style will have to change and he will have to become a much better leader. Oh, and the Cavs have to find a real coach. What LeBron is doing to Blatt is a joke. He'll need someone with a mind for the game and that can command respect. If he keeps undermining his coach, other players will follow his lead. The Cavs are a good team but their chemistry is a mess. That can easily derail future championship aspirations. He has about a 4 year window before his skills start to erode and father time starts creeping in. Let's see what he can do for the Cavs if he doesn't jump ship again looking for an easier route back to the Finals.

7-13 in final seconds of playoffs game yet he doesn't do well under pressure?

Its funny that this is the third time I mention this stat and everyone is blind to it.

 

[WWEJedi]

This thread got popcorn worthy over night. Deez, Filip, Royce, Sara and Ink covered everything. Good job gents.

Nobody said Jordan hit the game winning shot in the playoffs every single time, he wasn't perfect and he didn't do it alone - we all know that. However, there's no disputing how many clutch shots MJ did hit that vaulted him to legendary status. At this moment, I can't think of single one for Lebron - just Ray Allen hitting that killer shot - and he's played in 6 Finals already in his 12th NBA season.

This debate has never been about supporting cast it's been about individual game of MJ & LBJ.



This.



To answer your question What player suddenly changed their style of play to win? the answer is - any great one.

You keep saying Lebron doesn't need to change his game, but you're forgetting he has already. When he came into the league the first few years, he was an absolutely atrocious post up player, completely awful with his back to the rim. His ranged game was mediocre at best as well. Through work and practice LBJ has went from awful in those situations to a threat, a pretty well rounded player which he was not initially. That is change.

Also as Sara noted, if you keep losing in the Finals why wouldn't you change your game? Clearly he isn't happy with the same result so making a change seems to be the common sense approach.

Watching LBJ kick the ball to guys like JR Smith with Finals games on the line is like watching the Seattle Seahawks run a pass play from the NE 2 yd line instead of handing the ball to Marshawn 'Beast Mode' Lynch with the Super Bowl on the line.

Of course you dont remember any of james big shots. Confirmation Bias at its finest.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

7-13 in final seconds of playoffs game yet he doesn't do well under pressure?

Its funny that this is the third time I mention this stat and everyone is blind to it.

Nobody is blind, you're being a troll and like most trolls you're easily ignored.

You've completely ignored all the rational discussion/commentary here about his game/Mj's game and keep yammering about one statistic nobody cares about b/c anyone with working eyeballs who has watched LBJ in his 6 Finals appearances knows he'd rather pass with the game on the line as opposed to take the shot.

He said so himself, so you making an any other argument is completely asinine.

 

[WWEJedi]

Nobody is blind, you're being a troll and like most trolls you're easily ignored.

You've completely ignored all the rational discussion/commentary here about his game/Mj's game and keep yammering about one statistic nobody cares about b/c anyone with working eyeballs who has watched LBJ in his 6 Finals appearances knows he'd rather pass with the game on the line as opposed to take the shot.

He said so himself, so you making an any other argument is completely asinine.

I forgot people with different views are trolls. Then said people back up views and provide stats and videos, admit that Jordan is great and you still cant comprehend basic information and resort to name calling and ignorant statements. Sad.

Confirmation Bias at its finest, single greatest downfall for most.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

I forgot people with different views are trolls. Then said people back up views and provide stats and videos, admit that Jordan is great and you still cant comprehend basic information and resort to name calling and ignorant statements. Sad.

Confirmation Bias at its finest, single greatest downfall for most.

You don't have a "different view", that would require posting something other than that meaningless statistic you're crying that everyone is ignoring. And the videos you posted confirmed my earlier post, that all you've tried to do since the get go is give every teammate Jordan had all the credit and give him none, all while making every excuse for LBJ's failures imaginable.

Your stat & videos are equally worthless. Keep up the good work.