General NBA Discussion

[Darkseed]

I read Beiber was booed by Cavs crowd then he got into a tisk which he lost. Way to represent Cle....

 

[kryptonianmutie]

I believe Neal136 did a phenomenal job describing MJ's legacy and place in the game. However, for a guy who doesn't like to have GOAT conversations, you at least bring compelling names to the table. I'll go over the 3 names you dropped. There are worthy players you can bring into the discussion (not Horry like jedi suggests) but the 3 players you targeted are certainly considered some of the very best.

Let's go to who I feel is the biggest claim to the crown myself...Bill Russel. Russel was a defensive FORCE and rebounding machine like almost no other. That said, he was hardly the focal point of the Celts offense. He averaged a respectable 15 points a game but it's safe to say his biggest impact on the floor was on the defensive side of the ball and rebounding. He won 11 Championships in an era when there were 8 teams in the league and it's obvious to say that the overwhelming talent of that era was on those championship Celtics teams. Just look at all the HOFers on those Celtics team. Russel played with no less than 9 HOFers while wearing a Celts uniform. There is NO QUESTION MJ was the MAN on his Bulls team. He was without a doubt the driving force of his Championship teams in EVERY Finals appearance he made and throughout his Bulls career. That is made clear by the fact that no other Bulls player won Finals MVP during their championship run or league MVP. Anyone who watched MJ's performances during the regular season, playoffs, and Finals knows this. I'll end the conversation with Russel on this note. Russel has repeatedly said publicly that MJ is the GOAT. For a man with 11 rings and playing in the era where he played with others that are considered LEGENDS of the game (most of them were on his team), that's truly a special statement. It certainly means more than some of the clueless peeps that troll these boards.

On to 8 time NBA champ Havlicek. Well, he played in the same era as Russel and even on Russel's team for just about all his titles. He certainly had a higher scoring average and was more of a focal part of the Celtics offense than Russel. He was voted Finals MVP once. He has never won league MVP and averaged just over 20 points a game for his career. He's certainly a great player, but MJ's stats overall are leaps and bounds better than Havlicek's. As far as impact to his team and the league history, this one really isn't close. Besides, Russel played with all the great HOF Celts on his team in that era and he has no problem saying MJ is the best he's ever seen play the game. That's more than good enough for me.

Lastly we have Jabbar. He, like Russel, is a phenomenal player. His longevity and accomplishments in the league are well documented. He lead his Bucks team to a title back in '71 and was named Finals MVP. However, it's no secret that a majority of his success came with the Lakers since he won 5 titles there. The problem is, there's a STRONG argument that could be made for Magic being the man and leader of those great Lakers teams. Magic joined the Lakers in '80. From '75-'79, Jabbar wasn't able to lead his Lakers to a championship. When Magic arrives, Jabbar wins his 1st title with the Lakers, and as a rookie Magic is named MVP of the Finals. Jabbar would go on to win 4 more titles in LA but only win one Finals MVP ('85) during that Lakers team dynasty. Magic on the other hand goes on to be named Finals MVP 3 times during his time with the Lakers. While Jabbar amassed a TON of stats because he was a great player and played so long in the league, MJ's playoff stats and overall PER are better. Look, I know it's been stated before but 6 times Finals MVP leaves no doubt how much MJ meant to the Bulls and what role he played in winning 6 titles. With Jabbar, it can be said he wasn't even the most important player on those Lakers teams. I personally give that nod to Magic.

As for MJ, Neal136 did a fantastic job summing up his impact on the league in his post. There's no point in repeating it. However, I will add this about MJ. His regular season scoring average is 30.1 a game. His playoff scoring average is 33.4 points a game and his Finals average was 33.6 points a game. This is a man who clearly elevated his game when the stakes were higher. His PER allows him to be statistically compared to the greats of the game and NO ONE tops him. You don't have to believe Jordan is the GOAT. However, all the important numbers clearly point to it.

Awesome, well put.

 

[Darkseed]

Awesome, well put.

You read all that.......folks take this **** too seriously....

 

[WWEJedi]

It is funny with all this PER talk how LeBron has the second highest PER of all time only to Jordan.... yet none of the LeBron haters mention that.

Or how through age 31 LeBron has better stats than Jordan and only one less title.... but more Finals appearances.

You Jordan fans must be getting pretty worried.

 

[user 1190]

It is funny with all this PER talk how LeBron has the second highest PER of all time only to Jordan.... yet none of the LeBron haters mention that.

Or how through age 31 LeBron has better stats than Jordan and only one less title.... but more Finals appearances.

You Jordan fans must be getting pretty worried.

But how many seasons had both played? Jordan was from an era where players actually went to college.

 

[sarakawa]

It is funny with all this PER talk how LeBron has the second highest PER of all time only to Jordan.... yet none of the LeBron haters mention that.

Or how through age 31 LeBron has better stats than Jordan and only one less title.... but more Finals appearances.

You Jordan fans must be getting pretty worried.

Absolutely no one is worried

 

[jstep13]

Exactly, quality over quantity. Like I said before, after LBJ gets his 6th title (in 30 Finals) then they'll have something to talk about but I'll take 6-0 record over 6-27 record any day of the week.

 

[WWEJedi]

Lets say LeBron gets four titles in a row, MVP of each Final, he would then be 6-4 in the finals, 6 MVPs. He would pick up another MVP award, all star nods, all NBA selections, and pass MJ in points.

How many of you would still argue that MJ was GOAT?

 

[kryptonianmutie]

I grew up a Lakers fan but I was always in awe of how Jordan played and his skywalking abilities. There was reason we called him"Air Jordan"and he lived up to that name. I hated him and the Bulls for awhile when they beat my team in the finals but after he retired the first time and came back I really began to appreciate how great he really was. Having seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Lebron all since they were rookies my eye test just says that Jordan is the greatest. It's subjective, I know, but it is what it is.

 

[Darkseed]

I grew up watching Bird / Magic / Dr J..saw Jordan get drafted watched him progress....I personally hold him accountable for the state of the current NBA (good or bad based on perspective).... Listened to analyst at the time critique his game like Kobe, Lebron, Melo.....dominates the ball....players stand around and waiting to see what he does....taking too many shots ...etc.....same people forget all the criticism and proclaim the greatest ever.....I blame Spike Lee and the wanna be like Mike adds for brainwashing people.....just kidding...sorta.

 

[user 1190]

Lets say LeBron gets four titles in a row, MVP of each Final, he would then be 6-4 in the finals, 6 MVPs. He would pick up another MVP award, all star nods, all NBA selections, and pass MJ in points.

How many of you would still argue that MJ was GOAT?

The problem is the 4. We all know MJ could have easily had more than 6 had he not taken that time off.

 

[jstep13]

I grew up watching Bird / Magic / Dr J..saw Jordan get drafted watched him progress....I personally hold him accountable for the state of the current NBA (good or bad based on perspective).... Listened to analyst at the time critique his game like Kobe, Lebron, Melo.....dominates the ball....players stand around and waiting to see what he does....taking too many shots ...etc.....same people forget all the criticism and proclaim the greatest ever.....I blame Spike Lee and the wanna be like Mike adds for brainwashing people.....just kidding...sorta.

Well if you're a CLE homer, I get why you would be bitter...the Shot, The Shot II...so much promise with Ehlo, Daughtery, Price etc only to fall short when MJ came to town. For others who don't hold a bias either way. He's GOAT. LeBron will never ever never be. That's it end of story.

 

[filip629]

It is funny with all this PER talk how LeBron has the second highest PER of all time only to Jordan.... yet none of the LeBron haters mention that.

Or how through age 31 LeBron has better stats than Jordan and only one less title.... but more Finals appearances.

You Jordan fans must be getting pretty worried.

I'm shaking in my boots with fear over your ignorance. For the record, go look back at my posts. I was the first one who said ironically enough, LeBron has the second best PER in the league history. You know what he does not have? The highest regular season scoring average in League history, the highest playoff scoring average in League history, the highest Finals scoring average in League history, 6 NBA titles, 6 Finals MVPs, and finally...the title of GOAT.

 

[filip629]

Lets say LeBron gets four titles in a row, MVP of each Final, he would then be 6-4 in the finals, 6 MVPs. He would pick up another MVP award, all star nods, all NBA selections, and pass MJ in points.

How many of you would still argue that MJ was GOAT?

When LeBron sleeps.....

Sometimes I dream
That he is me
You've got to see that's how I dream to be
I dream I move, I dream I groove
Like Mike
If I could Be Like Mike
Like Mike
Oh, if I could Be Like Mike
Be Like Mike, Be Like Mike
Again I try
Just need to fly
For just one day if I could
Be that way
I dream I move
I dream I groove
Like Mike
If I could Be Like Mike
I wanna be, I wanna be
Like Mike
Oh, if I could Be Like Mike

 

[filip629]

The problem is the 4. We all know MJ could have easily had more than 6 had he not taken that time off.

If not for the senseless murder of his father, MJ and the Bulls were definitely in a position to add 2 more rings to their total. MJ was certainly closer to the possibility of adding rings during those 2 years than James is at this point in his career and the foreseeable future. This doesn't even take into account the lockout after MJ won his 6th title. He went out on top his last year with the Bulls. Who's to say they couldn't have won it one more time if there wasn't a lockout and they stayed together? Bron will be 32 at the end of this year. He probably has about 4 to 5 years before father time starts catching up to him, and if he stays in Cleveland, I can't see Bron winning 4 titles in that window of time. I would think he's gonna have to abandon ship and join a star studded team like he did in Miami to get a shot at 4 more rings. Also, if he gets to the Finals, there's no guarantee he'll win it. His track record so far hasn't exactly been stellar in that department. Unless of course, we actually count all the imaginary titles jedi likes handing out to him.

 

[Darkseed]

Well if you're a CLE homer, I get why you would be bitter...the Shot, The Shot II...so much promise with Ehlo, Daughtery, Price etc only to fall short when MJ came to town. For others who don't hold a bias either way. He's GOAT. LeBron will never ever never be. That's it end of story.

No bitterness....it's a game. Not from Cle simply root for the"state" team.

If you'd re-read the your post "end of story", "deal with it", "James will never ever be" ..kinda screams bias from an unbiased source. I've never questioned anyone's greatness nor stated (James) or anyone is superior simply not buying the term GOAT. I get a lot fans have the need to belong and latch onto "winners" it's part of the pack mentality and it's fine. You and the Jordanarres can post, post in support of one another argue with me until cows come home but what is the true end of story .....I am a grown man who doesn't require the support of popular opinion to make a choice....I chose not to buy the term GOAT....deal with it. See what I did there ....

 

[Darkseed]

Lets say LeBron gets four titles in a row.?

We all know MJ could have easily had more than 6 had he not taken that time off.

How does one know what cannot be proven or yet to be proven? Hell...what if....Iverson practiced......could this conversation be null and void

 

[sarakawa]

How does one know what cannot be proven or yet to be proven? Hell...what if....Iverson practiced......could this conversation be null and void

While we disagree on GOAT, you do seem much more sensible than Jedi I'll give you that

 

[Darkseed]

While we disagree on GOAT, you do seem much more sensible than Jedi I'll give you that

you have fans and fanatics.....I am a fan...life is much richer then success or failure of any person or team

 

[user 1190]

When LeBron sleeps.....

Sometimes I dream
That he is me
You've got to see that's how I dream to be
I dream I move, I dream I groove
Like Mike
If I could Be Like Mike
Like Mike
Oh, if I could Be Like Mike
Be Like Mike, Be Like Mike
Again I try
Just need to fly
For just one day if I could
Be that way
I dream I move
I dream I groove
Like Mike
If I could Be Like Mike
I wanna be, I wanna be
Like Mike
Oh, if I could Be Like Mike

We all know that. He has wanted to be him since day one and is a large part of his insecurity.