General NBA Discussion
- Thread starter Bodie The Cursed
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Wouldnt it be fun if Lebron went to the finals 10 straight but just never won another title? It would make the confusion of where he ranks among the best so much fun to debate!
I'm a Warriors fan, but if you put LeBron on basically any team in the east he'd be in the Finals. If LeBron loses to the Warriors, he isn't the one to be blamed. He's had very solid games in this series so far, with the only blemish being the turnovers.
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Funny how when he wins he's goat and when he loses it's welp wasn't his fault. What a joke no star has ever been forgiven more than Lebrun
I don't see it that way at all. I'd happily take LeBron on any team. I'd never say he's the GOAT, but he's top-10 for sure. Probably top-5. There is no way I see LeBron surpass MJ. And once again, this isn't coming from a major LeBron fan, I'm a Warriors fan for 30+ years.
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If we want to talk overrated players, I'd start with Harden, Westbrook, and Melo. There are three very overrated players who won't be able to ever lead a team to the finals as the top player on any given team. They are players that put up big numbers, but are worse that the numbers suggest. These are players who don't make other players on their team better. LeBron makes teammates better in a pretty big way. So you can look at the numbers LeBron puts up, plus look at how he makes others around him better...like Magic did.
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Harden and Westbrook play in extremely difficult conferences.melo has never had a supporting cast. I would be willing to bet anything If harden and Westbrook played in the lame east they could easily make one finals appearance. Easily.
Give melo the supporting cast of either Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in that we conference I guarantee you he makes at least one finals appearance.
Conversely if LeBron was in the west I doubt he would make 8 straight finals like has. Plus kyrie and love were both star players before Lebrun so please save the he makes other players better rhetoric for someone just started watching basketball yesterday.
Lebrun is so overrated it's not even funny.
I agree LeBron would have far more issues in the West. I don't think Harden or Westbrook could beat any LeBron team unless they had stacked rosters. Melo had a pretty decent team in Denver.
How many playoff games did Kyrie or Love win prior to playing with LeBron? If they were truly stars, they would have even played a single postseason minute without LeBron. They weren't good enough alone. And Kyrie was playing in the east, so he has no excuse...
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I'm surprised to actual hear people who think LeBron is overrated. I'd agree he was overrated in his first Cavs stint, but he's damn good these days. Historically good. Remember when at one point people actually considered Melo as possibly as good as LeBron?
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Yea, I have been anti-Lebron since the decision but I have to admit, he's definitely top 5 all time in my book at this point. Yes the east has been weak but 7 straight finals is pretty damn impressive. I don't really give him a pass for losing as much as he does though. For one thing, he made the decision to form a super team in Miami so honestly, those finals losses definitely don't get a pass. I get the hate for Durant for joining the Warriors but I don't see how that's worse then Lebron joining Wade and Bosh which was WAY more calculated. At least the rest of the Warriors were built from the draft. I give Lebron some credit for going back to CLE and winning it last year...that was impressive coming back from down 3-1. But he doesn't get a pass for losing this year if it happens...I don't care if the Warriors got Durant.
Yeah, as a Warriors fan I never understood the Warriors hate after getting Durant. Like you said, the Dubs were built pretty much through the draft, and only have one major addition via signing Durant. So I guess you can hate KD, but why are people hating on Steph or Klay? I guess I understand Draymond hate...he's like a modern Rodman or something along those lines.
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BurningRage
Super Freak
If Westbrook and Durant got along better he would've stayed in OKC. It' all on Westbrook.
BurningRage
Super Freak
Celtics - Never beat them
Pistons - Got old and not a great record
Lakers- Not the same team from the 80's and Worthy was horrible.
Magics- Not a great team
Rockets - Never played them in the finals
Sonics - only one real Hall of Famer point guard and if not for Rodman the Bulls don't win in 96. Rodman should have been the MVP.
Suns- Great team? Barkley was a great player.
Pacers - Reggie Miller was good...not great.
Blazers - One star team
Knicks - One star team
Jazz - Very good team with two Hall of Famers.
The way I look at it, Jordan literally had the best teams in every finals. Do they win against the Rockets in 95? The Bulls with Jordan couldn't even beat the Magics. Yes, he wasn't the same, but his playoff numbers and percentages in every category were better than in the following years, meaning he never got better as a player, hence he needed a better team to beat the Magics the next year, so no he and the Bulls wouldn't have won against the Rockets, because they weren't good enough to beat the Magics. Jordan and the Bulls were dominant for sure, but I think people like to embellish his competition....in retrospect, but at the time, I remember one of the complaints was how water down the NBA was when compared to the 80's, which ironically only five teams played in the finals in 10 years. Most of the teams Jordan faced never even went back to a finals, except the Jazz.
The only criticism I have against Lebron, is the Dallas meltdown, but other than that, he's played against teams with multiple future Hall of Famers in the finals, and his teams are often the underdog, which is interesting considering people call his teams "super teams."
As far as the whole "GOAT" talk, Lebron is not allowed to pass Jordan as the "best," IMO. By that I mean, there is nothing Lebron can do in the next 5 years to change people's perception of him and Jordan. If in 14 season he hasn't made it clear that he might be better, then no achievement or stat will do it, because people will always find a way to diminish his accomplishments. It doesn't help that MJ has always been above stats, rings, and I guess...logic
People talk about Lebron achieving more rings, more this and that in order to pass MJ, but what's interesting is that MJ never had to achieve more than other players to be seen as the best. Back in 1993, when MJ had just 2 rings, many...including myself, considered him the "GOAT", in fact he was on the cover of Newsweek magazine that year, and the title of the article was "The Greatest of All Time ", which is interesting because Magic Johnson at that time, at age 31, had been to the finals 9 times, with 5 rings, 3 final MVP's, 3 season MVP's, and a post season avg of 20-PPG, 12 reb, and 8 Assists. Yet people, myself included, didn't compare Jordan to Magic. Jordan was great no doubt, and his skills and athleticism were amazing, but so were the dunks, his style of play, and marketing, so I think he came along at the right time as the NBA was becoming more popular and global, and MJ was the complete package. It's impossible to compete with that. I don't know if he's really the GOAT anymore, but he was by far the best in the 90's.
Again, this will be a case of agree to disagree. I'm looking at MJs career as a whole while playing for the Bulls. The Celts were awesome early in MJs career, as were the Pistons and Lakers. Also, getting out of the East was a dog fight. You may not think much about the Knicks or the Pacers back then but those were tough/competitive teams to get around and they were quality playoff teams for years.The loss against Orlando had 2 issues. MJ not being right because of his retirement (and his dad's murder) and the loss of Grant to Orlando. Once the Bulls picked up Rodman to replace Grant, they were obviously a more complete and rounded team. It didn't hurt that MJ had a complete year under his belt and rounded back into basketball form. Obviously, they had a historic season that year and beat the Sonics. As for Houston, we'll never know. The murder of MJs dad denied us of possibly 2 incredible Finals. Does Grant leave if MJ doesn't retire? Do the Bulls replace him with Rodman right away if he does? Is MJ focused because of his dad's murder? Either way, I'm not ready to say the Bulls would lose to the Rockets during their trips to the Finals. I believe the Knicks were actually up 3-2 and blew the last 2 games of the Finals and Hakeem just schooled Shaq and Orlando the next year. That doesn't happen with an MJ lead Bulls team. Bottom line though, we'll never know. I'll sum up today's NBA as best as I can. 3 straight years of Cavs vs Warriors with a likely 4th to come. One playoff loss combined leading to the Finals by both teams this year. No other NBA teams ascending or talented enough to challenge the Cavs or Warriors in the immediate future. So, if you think the level of competition is better now than it was during MJs run...well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I think it's more of...here's another superstar bailing on his team because he can't win a ring so he can join a super talented team and coast to a title. I don't blame the Warriors for signing the best player they could during free agency. I blame Durant for leaving an already talented team and not wanting to compete for a title. Personally speaking, I see way more hate for KD than I do for GS. GS is going to compete for titles with or without KD. It's not like GS needed KD to get over the hump and win a ring....it's actually the other way around. I think peeps want to see GS lose strictly so KD doesn't get a ring.
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Neal136
MCU Whore
And with all of that being said, KD is playing out of his mind so far in the Finals. He isn't messing around.
Darth Madden
You Are A Tooooooy!!!
I have no problem with GS signing him. It's a smart move, but yeah it's pretty sad on KD's part. Enjoy the ring they didn't need you to get.
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