HBO: The Last of Us

[Asta]

Yeaaaaaaa but at the same time they kinda destroyed the hopeful nature of the first one. It is implied at the end before tlou2 that Ellie knew Joel was lying but she believed him out of her love for Joel.
In the new game she finds out in a very stupid way and pretty much hates him. Also Joel gives his name away in such an easy manner. The whole game story wise is a mess. It tried to hard to be bleak and depressing and destroyed what made the characters good. Abby was a terribly written character who all of sudden we care about her npc dad we kill at the end. She then wins by taking absolutely everything from Ellie (including her fingers and ties to Joel).

meanwhile Abby gets a fresh start while Ellie loses everything she tried fighting for in the first one. The second one destroys that hopeful nature of the first.

so yes I hope that in the hbo series they completely ignore the awful sequel storyline and focus on a better development for the characters and a better death for Joel .

the last of us essentially got its popularity from it being a hopeful story in a messed up world . The second game tried its hardest to kill and destroy everything the characters fought for and who they were.

awful game

TLOU ended with a lie. The seeds for conflict were planted there. For TLOU2 to go any other way would've been a betrayal of that conflict.

The series tried to elevate the video game medium by humanising the characters, even the NPCs who are the usual cannon fodder. None of the main players are perfect. They all make mistakes, and are driven by human emotions that don't always equate with rational choices.

TLOU's atypical ending leads to an even more atypical sequel.

At least the games existed, and no TV series can change the original storyline. They can only create something new, associated only by name.

It was a mess. People hated it. People called it the last jedi of video games. Also the marketing basically lied to you about the story. They killed the franchise horribly. It’s sad cause the first is considered a masterpiece. However gameplay is solid and the environment is detailed. The story is just a mess

Much of the hate stemmed from leaks before the game launched, based on supposition. When people actually experienced the story on release the balance began to swing.

While the original still holds a mighty 9.7/10 on IMDB, the sequel has risen to 8.3/10, which is a lot higher than it was when voters initially tried to destroy it. The voting balance shows there's a lot more love than hate.

The franchise also looks far from dead if they're spending $100 million on a TV series.


Not every story is going to appeal to everyone the same, of course. It's largely dependent upon personal experience how much power certain elements hold.

In a former life I was on my way to a Ph.D in English Literature, after earning a B.A. 1st Class (Honours) in English Literature and History. That journey completely changed the way I saw things, the way I read novels or watched films.

Oddly, Conrad's novella, Heart of Darkness, seems applicable to so many situations, and so much of the literature that followed. It also ended with a lie. Marlow lied to Kurtz' Intended to protect her from the horrible truth, and also because it would be impossible to impart what he'd experienced in that darkness beyond the illusory, protective light of civilization. Essentially we travel alone, because we cannot fully share the feelings we experience from a given situation.

Joel lied to Ellie, because he couldn't bear to lose another 'daughter'. But the truth is still out there, in the darkness. Unlike Kurtz' Intended we get to see Ellie seek the truth beyond the lie, with terrible repercussions.


Historically, video games have tended to make things black and white for the 'heroes'. They're vents for players to let off steam. The challenges are survival and victory, rather than moral conflicts. In that way I see the TLOU series as crossing the boundary between game and film, and finding itself more in the latter category. The acting was certainly worthy of film, and the troubling storyline of the sequel was at odds with game dynamics.

I consumed the games as films, and found the finale of TLOU2 to be powerful. Gut wrenching and sad. As frustrating as Ellie and Joel's journey became, it was preferable to what could've been a bland sell out of the conflicted ending of the original.

 

[ironwez20]

TLOU ended with a lie. The seeds for conflict were planted there. For TLOU2 to go any other way would've been a betrayal of that conflict.

The series tried to elevate the video game medium by humanising the characters, even the NPCs who are the usual cannon fodder. None of the main players are perfect. They all make mistakes, and are driven by human emotions that don't always equate with rational choices.

TLOU's atypical ending leads to an even more atypical sequel.

At least the games existed, and no TV series can change the original storyline. They can only create something new, associated only by name.




Much of the hate stemmed from leaks before the game launched, based on supposition. When people actually experienced the story on release the balance began to swing.

While the original still holds a mighty 9.7/10 on IMDB, the sequel has risen to 8.3/10, which is a lot higher than it was when voters initially tried to destroy it. The voting balance shows there's a lot more love than hate.

The franchise also looks far from dead if they're spending $100 million on a TV series.


Not every story is going to appeal to everyone the same, of course. It's largely dependent upon personal experience how much power certain elements hold.

In a former life I was on my way to a Ph.D in English Literature, after earning a B.A. 1st Class (Honours) in English Literature and History. That journey completely changed the way I saw things, the way I read novels or watched films.

Oddly, Conrad's novella, Heart of Darkness, seems applicable to so many situations, and so much of the literature that followed. It also ended with a lie. Marlow lied to Kurtz' Intended to protect her from the horrible truth, and also because it would be impossible to impart what he'd experienced in that darkness beyond the illusory, protective light of civilization. Essentially we travel alone, because we cannot fully share the feelings we experience from a given situation.

Joel lied to Ellie, because he couldn't bear to lose another 'daughter'. But the truth is still out there, in the darkness. Unlike Kurtz' Intended we get to see Ellie seek the truth beyond the lie, with terrible repercussions.


Historically, video games have tended to make things black and white for the 'heroes'. They're vents for players to let off steam. The challenges are survival and victory, rather than moral conflicts. In that way I see the TLOU series as crossing the boundary between game and film, and finding itself more in the latter category. The acting was certainly worthy of film, and the troubling storyline of the sequel was at odds with game dynamics.

I consumed the games as films, and found the finale of TLOU2 to be powerful. Gut wrenching and sad. As frustrating as Ellie and Joel's journey became, it was preferable to what could've been a bland sell out of the conflicted ending of the original.

Yea I just found it as an absolute waste tbh. And they spend millions of game movies all the time. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. I know the ending was from a lie and Joel was scared of losing her. But the original implied that she went along with it even tho she was skeptical.

I’m the new one Joel seems like a bad guy and Ellie pretty much avoids him. They ruined the strong dynamic in my eyes and destroyed what made the characters great. No character is perfect yes abd the first one already drove home that fact.

also IMDb isn’t a reputable source for games. Maybe try a game scoring site. And look at the sales numbers. They are terrible. People wanted ghost of Tsushima to win everything and said that was the game of the year.
People talked about the last of us well after it came out. Nobody talks about it anymore. The franchise is as dead as the ST Star Wars. The show may revive it again .
The game awards and news sites awarded this game so many rewards showing how biased they can be.
People wanted to say that the story was so “ progressive” but it’s the exact opposite.
Lesbian couple gets beat up by straight whites woman who is buff and manly and eventually comes out on top and wins against the lesbian woman who is now alone and miserable.
But hey Atleast you got your little Asian kid or whatever.
Not so progressive

also imo the ending was a colossal waste of time and trying to be depressing but instead made a beloved character lose everything she loved and destroy the msg of being hopeful and fighting for something in the first. Just an all around terrible ending that doesn’t hold a candle to the first games ending .

 

[Asta]

Yea I just found it as an absolute waste tbh. And they spend millions of game movies all the time. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. I know the ending was from a lie and Joel was scared of losing her. But the original implied that she went along with it even tho she was skeptical.

I’m the new one Joel seems like a bad guy and Ellie pretty much avoids him. They ruined the strong dynamic in my eyes and destroyed what made the characters great. No character is perfect yes abd the first one already drove home that fact.

also IMDb isn’t a reputable source for games. Maybe try a game scoring site. And look at the sales numbers. They are terrible. People wanted ghost of Tsushima to win everything and said that was the game of the year.
People talked about the last of us well after it came out. Nobody talks about it anymore. The franchise is as dead as the ST Star Wars. The show may revive it again .
The game awards and news sites awarded this game so many rewards showing how biased they can be.
People wanted to say that the story was so “ progressive” but it’s the exact opposite.
Lesbian couple gets beat up by straight whites woman who is buff and manly and eventually comes out on top and wins against the lesbian woman who is now alone and miserable.
But hey Atleast you got your little Asian kid or whatever.
Not so progressive

also imo the ending was a colossal waste of time and trying to be depressing but instead made a beloved character lose everything she loved and destroy the msg of being hopeful and fighting for something in the first. Just an all around terrible ending that doesn’t hold a candle to the first games ending .

Any intended 'progressiveness' wasn't key for me. Only that a variety of people were all affected in some way by Joel's decision. If he hadn't acted Ellie would've died and there probably wouldn't have been a sequel. Since he did act it dictated that any sequel would have to deal with the consequences.

Joel was struck by tragedy in the prologue of TLOU, and finds meaning again through Ellie as they travel together. His decision at the end is a selfish act, made out of love for Ellie, his surrogate daughter.

Ellie doesn't believe his story, but she needs to in order to find peace. Her eyes and her faint, "Okay", after Joel assures her it was true are unconvincing. She's accepted the story in name only, which gives them a chance to move on.

Joel was in a lose/lose situation but he couldn't have done anything otherwise. To find meaning he had to rob Ellie of hers.

From that moment on their relationship is bound to be strained. So, to me, when TLOU2 picks up it isn't surprising that they've drifted apart, and Ellie is torn up, restless and looking for purpose. Joel's death gives her that purpose, and she pursues Abby regardless of the repercussions, because it occupies her and gives her a chance of forgiving Joel posthumously.

A Part III would be intriguing, to see both Ellie and Abby attempt to rebuild their lives from near destruction.

 

[R_R_X]

Throwing in my two cents in what continues to be a heated debate regarding the second game, I've got multiple posts on the forum about my thoughts on it so I won't explain myself yet again, but I for one can see why both sides think of the story a certain a way, I do not agree with the statement that it's a masterpiece despite how many awards were thrown at the game and I do not agree with the statement it's garbage, I enjoy the game on a technical level, it has by far the best graphics in gaming and I can understand what they wanted to do with the story but I was still left disappointed as it felt they rushed too many things and introduced too many plot conveniences for the sake of some scenes, a lot of the game felt like a waste of time as it introduced worthless side characters that ended up dying like nothing and were utilized as mere plot devices in the case of Jesse for example. I still love Joel and Ellie despite what they did with their characters, it's no surprise the best moments in the game are when they're together since Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson's chemistry just chews up the scenery and it's a damn shame we didn't have more interactions and scenes exploring the downfall of their relationship, I'm sure a third game is already in the works and quite frankly if it's about Abby I'm not buying it, a third game should explore Ellies journey of redemption since that seems like the logical step forward after the bleak and brutal story told in Part II, I just hope the writers can learn from their mistakes and go back to the roots of the first game, and also give us some kind of final interaction between Joel and a younger Ellie but I'm not holding my breath after they deprived us of playing as Joel in the second game and barely gave him an hour of screen time. As far as the series go I've said I don't have much interest in it aside from seeing the pratical effects and the apocalyptic scenery brought to real life, the casting continues to disappoint me and with a release date only for next year the interest that's there will only diminish over time, I wonder if general TV audiences will be so accepting of season 2 if that is ever greenlight and if the writers will change how some things play out so it doesn't seem as rushed and honestly laughably bad, Joel's death being one of these things.

 

[ironwez20]

Any intended 'progressiveness' wasn't key for me. Only that a variety of people were all affected in some way by Joel's decision. If he hadn't acted Ellie would've died and there probably wouldn't have been a sequel. Since he did act it dictated that any sequel would have to deal with the consequences.

Joel was struck by tragedy in the prologue of TLOU, and finds meaning again through Ellie as they travel together. His decision at the end is a selfish act, made out of love for Ellie, his surrogate daughter.

Ellie doesn't believe his story, but she needs to in order to find peace. Her eyes and her faint, "Okay", after Joel assures her it was true are unconvincing. She's accepted the story in name only, which gives them a chance to move on.

Joel was in a lose/lose situation but he couldn't have done anything otherwise. To find meaning he had to rob Ellie of hers.

From that moment on their relationship is bound to be strained. So, to me, when TLOU2 picks up it isn't surprising that they've drifted apart, and Ellie is torn up, restless and looking for purpose. Joel's death gives her that purpose, and she pursues Abby regardless of the repercussions, because it occupies her and gives her a chance of forgiving Joel posthumously.

A Part III would be intriguing, to see both Ellie and Abby attempt to rebuild their lives from near destruction.

Nah. I don’t think he robs her he protects her from dying for a lost cause . He knows a cute probably won’t be possible so he saves her. Again she believed this lie cause she wanted to be happy with Joel but they wanted to change the dynamic so quickly

 

[RandomHero]

Nah. I don’t think he robs her he protects her from dying for a lost cause . He knows a cute probably won’t be possible so he saves her. Again she believed this lie cause she wanted to be happy with Joel but they wanted to change the dynamic so quickly

This literally could not be more wrong. One of the first lines in TLOU2 is "she needed her immunity to mean something, and I took that from her". It's set up in the flashbacks that Ellie struggles with her immunity having meant nothing, and that she was suspicious of Joel because he said there were tons of other immune people, but she never met one.

Joel was a good father before the outbreak. He loved his daughter. When she was taken from him, Joel went to unspeakably dark places, so much so that his own brother gave up on him. Ellie was his path back to humanity. She was the first thing he cared for in two decades and he couldn't let her die.

A cure was entirely possible. Not definite. But possible. The entire story of TLOU2 is the fallout of Joel's decision to save Ellie and all of the people it effected.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

Wonder how they’ll find a way to eff it up

Do a really good season one and **** the bed after that

 

[chrisstbh]

Do a really good season one and **** the bed after that

So basically what they did with the games then. Makes sense.

 

[ironwez20]

This literally could not be more wrong. One of the first lines in TLOU2 is "she needed her immunity to mean something, and I took that from her". It's set up in the flashbacks that Ellie struggles with her immunity having meant nothing, and that she was suspicious of Joel because he said there were tons of other immune people, but she never met one.

Joel was a good father before the outbreak. He loved his daughter. When she was taken from him, Joel went to unspeakably dark places, so much so that his own brother gave up on him. Ellie was his path back to humanity. She was the first thing he cared for in two decades and he couldn't let her die.

A cure was entirely possible. Not definite. But possible. The entire story of TLOU2 is the fallout of Joel's decision to save Ellie and all of the people it effected.

Yes and it fell flat on its ***. Why should we care about a no name character who has zero to no connection to the first. O he was a npc. Eh so what. I know that it was the fallout but what I’m saying is it cheapens the first one and makes it less hopeful. Instead making it a bleak four hopeless ending that utterly defeats the msg of the first.

what fans of the second game don’t seem to get is that even tho it’s a realistic outcome it destroys the impactful ness of the original. Joel found something worth fighting for again , he wasn’t alone anymore. If that meant not saving the world so be it. A cure wasn’t definite. No his actions weren’t right but he loved the girl like his daughter. The first one pretty much is saying that “ yea the world is **** but if you have to die to make it better than me and you will fight together “

now the relationship is broken, no closure, the memory of him is dead, Ellie lost her only connection to Joel and sort of leaves his memory behind in the abandoned house.

story was a mess and a complete disrespect to the original. I’m glad it got panned so hard

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

So basically what they did with the games then. Makes sense.

Every HBO show has tanked at the end

 

[Victοr]

All I'll say is that I was never a fan of the "if you kill them you're just like them!111!" trope. Or the whole "forgive and let go to grow and atone" or whatever. Especially when the MC has just gotten done killing hundreds of nameless mooks, just to get all high and mighty or mopey and introspective when they reach the antagonist. I've always seen it as cheap. I never played TLoUII, as the leaks put me off it (plus, I never bought a PS4). I'm not going to pass judgement on anything else, since I don't have much experience bar the bare-bones summary, but I'm not much for its message.

I'm still reserving judgement on the show itself.

 

[chrisstbh]

All I'll say is that I was never a fan of the "if you kill them you're just like them!111!" trope. Or the whole "forgive and let go to grow and atone" or whatever. Especially when the MC has just gotten done killing hundreds of nameless mooks, just to get all high and mighty or mopey and introspective when they reach the antagonist. I've always seen it as cheap. I never played TLoUII, as the leaks put me off it (plus, I never bought a PS4). I'm not going to pass judgement on anything else, since I don't have much experience bar the bare-bones summary, but I'm not much for its message.

I'm still reserving judgement on the show itself.

Yeah lol if someone went Tiger Woods on my adoptive father right in front of me I wouldn’t let them go after going through hell to hunt them down. Such lazy writing.

 

[Victοr]

Yeah lol if someone went Tiger Woods on my adoptive father right in front of me I wouldn’t let them go after going through hell to hunt them down. Such lazy writing.

If it was a case of just hunting someone down, and in the end you can't pull the trigger or there's some emotional ******** or whatever, I kinda get it. The whole "cycle of violence" and whatever other thing we've seen so many times. But when you've already killed who knows how many people hunting down this one person, then at the end you go "lmao Imma forgive you to stop this cycle and whatevs" then I just find it silly. You're already a mass murderer, do it and finish it. What, someone else will come after you? Wasn't the point that the NPC's backstory came back to bite you? Who knows how many NPCs you've offed at this point? What makes this NPC-turned-MC special?

I don't mind tragedy, but when it comes to stories of revenge and vengeance, I'll always expect the killing blow to be dealt. Punishment can then be dealt or not, depending on the message the creators are trying to send, but I was never big on such cheap forgiveness or moving on or whatever else it's called. Again, I don't know all the details, which is why I'm commenting on just this one part. But when Ellie has killed untold NPCs, then decides to spare the main antagonist, I don't see that as cathartic, introspective or anything else. I just see it as cheap. What, Ellie realises it was all for nothing? It's all nothing? That's the big takeaway? I don't like such stories myself.

 

[chrisstbh]

If it was a case of just hunting someone down, and in the end you can't pull the trigger or there's some emotional ******** or whatever, I kinda get it. The whole "cycle of violence" and whatever other thing we've seen so many times. But when you've already killed who knows how many people hunting down this one person, then at the end you go "lmao Imma forgive you to stop this cycle and whatevs" then I just find it silly. You're already a mass murderer, do it and finish it. What, someone else will come after you? Wasn't the point that the NPC's backstory came back to bite you? Who knows how many NPCs you've offed at this point? What makes this NPC-turned-MC special?

I don't mind tragedy, but when it comes to stories of revenge and vengeance, I'll always expect the killing blow to be dealt. Punishment can then be dealt or not, depending on the message the creators are trying to send, but I was never big on such cheap forgiveness or moving on or whatever else it's called. Again, I don't know all the details, which is why I'm commenting on just this one part. But when Ellie has killed untold NPCs, then decides to spare the main antagonist, I don't see that as cathartic, introspective or anything else. I just see it as cheap. What, Ellie realises it was all for nothing? It's all nothing? That's the big takeaway? I don't like such stories myself.

Yeah it really makes no sense, she’s willing to brutally murder countless people that did nothing to her personally, yet the lets the one person that caused her the most grief live happily ever after.

The Last of Us never needed a sequel.

 

[Victοr]

Yeah it really makes no sense, she’s willing to brutally murder countless people that did nothing to her personally, yet the lets the one person that caused her the most grief live happily ever after.

The Last of Us never needed a sequel.

I get it, her seeing her helpless, starved and tied is supposed to make her feel dirty for trying to kill her, but tough luck, you're already on this road and there's no brakes on this train. She should've killed Abby, brutally. Now, if they wanted to make her feel hollow, and awful or whatever after that, to drive home the point, I get it. But letting her live is just cheap. Just a way to rob you of catharsis and try and make you feel bad. Which I don't get, considering all the dead NPCs already.

 

[Asta]

Yeah lol if someone went Tiger Woods on my adoptive father right in front of me I wouldn’t let them go after going through hell to hunt them down. Such lazy writing.

Through much of the game Ellie had been suffering a psychological break. She was possessed by her mission to avenge Joel's death.

When she's holding Abby under the water Ellie has a sudden memory of Joel, which finally brings her to her senses. On the verge of achieving her goal she has a brief moment of clarity, which turns immediately to overwhelming grief. After all the killing there's a realisation that it was for nothing, because killing Abby wouldn't bring Joel back. Letting her live is akin to holding onto the last shred of her humanity.

It's melodramatic, but it's in a long line of literature on the theme.

At the end Ellie realises that she has become hollow, a shadow of her former self. Abby is likewise, and literally, a shadow of her former self.

T.S. Eliot's poem 'The Hollow Men', which referenced Conrad's Heart of Darkness, identified the "hollow men" as those who recognize their guilt and their broken state, yet fail to fulfil their desires. It's to be morally empty, and without values.

Conrad's stories are filled with men who make mistakes, sometimes responsible for the death of others. Unable to deal with their actions they go to remote places to try and build new lives, to forget the guilt and find meaning again.

Ellie at the end of TLOU2 is beginning that journey to recovery and atonement. A journey that Abby had already begun.

 

[R_R_X]

Through much of the game Ellie had been suffering a psychological break. She was possessed by her mission to avenge Joel's death.

When she's holding Abby under the water Ellie has a sudden memory of Joel, which finally brings her to her senses. On the verge of achieving her goal she has a brief moment of clarity, which turns immediately to overwhelming grief. After all the killing there's a realisation that it was for nothing, because killing Abby wouldn't bring Joel back. Letting her live is akin to holding onto the last shred of her humanity.

It's melodramatic, but it's in a long line of literature on the theme.

At the end Ellie realises that she has become hollow, a shadow of her former self. Abby is likewise, and literally, a shadow of her former self.

T.S. Eliot's poem 'The Hollow Men', which referenced Conrad's Heart of Darkness, identified the "hollow men" as those who recognize their guilt and their broken state, yet fail to fulfil their desires. It's to be morally empty, and without values.

Conrad's stories are filled with men who make mistakes, sometimes responsible for the death of others. Unable to deal with their actions they go to remote places to try and build new lives, to forget the guilt and find meaning again.

Ellie at the end of TLOU2 is beginning that journey to recovery and atonement. A journey that Abby had already begun.

I can see what they were going for but to me there's still a massive case of ludonarrative dissonance and that's really why the story fails, at least for me, that and the pacing and structure which is atrocious. The whole game I'm mudering countless NPCs and dogs that had nothing to do with Joel's murder, fans of the story like to justify these murders by saying Ellie and Abby were just defending themselves against bad people which is extremely hypocritical since the point the game drives forward is nobody is bad or good, and the other and most moronic reason I've seen is gameplay isn't canon, which then what the **** is the point of this game?

The actions of both protagonists are disgusting to say the least, Abby being the worst for me since she slaughters people she's been living with for years, in a section that's supposed to mirror Joel's hospital massacre yet manages to be 10 times worse as these NPCs call out Abbys name in dismay as she slaughters her friends for a kid she met ONE day ago, it all just falls incredibly flat, Neil Druckmann wanted to replace Joel and Ellie with Abby and Lev and he wasn't subtle about it all with the constant scenes mirroring their relationship, the difference is Joel and Ellie's journey spanned the course of a year, we played as them the whole game, we lived in their skin and grew to love them much like they did one another.

You know why TLOU2 fails in that aspect? Almost nobody mentions Lev when discussing this game, he was supposed to be Abby's Ellie but truth is he was just another forgettable character to be added to the pile of worthless characters TLOU2 introduced, the first game managed to make every character memorable, Tess, Bill, Marlene, Henry and Sam, even tho they had little screentime I still connected with all of them more than I did with anyone in Part 2, and it feels like the characters they brought back were butchered and degraded for nothing, Ellie ends up a shell of her former self absolutely alone and abandoning her last ties to Joel, Tommy ends up a cripple whom becomes a massive *** egging on Ellie to go hunt Abby again, Maria was just there and of course Joel was completely wasted as a character, acting as a mere catalyst for the story they wanted to tell.

I know you love the story and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact you didn't play the game so you don't expirience the ludonarrative dissonance us players do, what's sad is I believe the concept of this story could've been successful with everyone had it been written better, structured better, explored Joel and Ellie's downfall more and had they not forgotten they were doing a game, not a movie, I hate to sound like a know it all but as someone who briefly took a writting course I feel they could've written something much better and juggled it with the gameplay appropriately, the way it is, it's rushed, poorly structured and a waste of time for a lot of it, so harking back to the show I wonder if with new writers involved can restructure and rewrite some things of the second game's story that will actually make it work but I'm not holding my breath seeing how a lot of HBOs works have taken a nose dive in quality and writting after the first season and also, and I hate to be that guy haha, but Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey are not my Joel and Ellie, Naughty Dog was actually working on a short movie exploring the events before Part 2 dropped that explored what happened with Joel and Ellie, they ended up cancelling it and it's a damn shame because I would give anything to see more interaction between the two characters that made TLOU what it is, or more accurately, what it was.

 

[Asta]

I can see what they were going for but to me there's still a massive case of ludonarrative dissonance and that's really why the story fails, at least for me, that and the pacing and structure which is atrocious. The whole game I'm mudering countless NPCs and dogs that had nothing to do with Joel's murder, fans of the story like to justify these murders by saying Ellie and Abby were just defending themselves against bad people which is extremely hypocritical since the point the game drives forward is nobody is bad or good, and the other and most moronic reason I've seen is gameplay isn't canon, which then what the **** is the point of this game?

The actions of both protagonists are disgusting to say the least, Abby being the worst for me since she slaughters people she's been living with for years, in a section that's supposed to mirror Joel's hospital massacre yet manages to be 10 times worse as these NPCs call out Abbys name in dismay as she slaughters her friends for a kid she met ONE day ago, it all just falls incredibly flat, Neil Druckmann wanted to replace Joel and Ellie with Abby and Lev and he wasn't subtle about it all with the constant scenes mirroring their relationship, the difference is Joel and Ellie's journey spanned the course of a year, we played as them the whole game, we lived in their skin and grew to love them much like they did one another.

You know why TLOU2 fails in that aspect? Almost nobody mentions Lev when discussing this game, he was supposed to be Abby's Ellie but truth is he was just another forgettable character to be added to the pile of worthless characters TLOU2 introduced, the first game managed to make every character memorable, Tess, Bill, Marlene, Henry and Sam, even tho they had little screentime I still connected with all of them more than I did with anyone in Part 2, and it feels like the characters they brought back were butchered and degraded for nothing, Ellie ends up a shell of her former self absolutely alone and abandoning her last ties to Joel, Tommy ends up a cripple whom becomes a massive *** egging on Ellie to go hunt Abby again, Maria was just there and of course Joel was completely wasted as a character, acting as a mere catalyst for the story they wanted to tell.

I know you love the story and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact you didn't play the game so you don't expirience the ludonarrative dissonance us players do, what's sad is I believe the concept of this story could've been successful with everyone had it been written better, structured better, explored Joel and Ellie's downfall more and had they not forgotten they were doing a game, not a movie, I hate to sound like a know it all but as someone who briefly took a writting course I feel they could've written something much better and juggled it with the gameplay appropriately, the way it is, it's rushed, poorly structured and a waste of time for a lot of it, so harking back to the show I wonder if with new writers involved can restructure and rewrite some things of the second game's story that will actually make it work but I'm not holding my breath seeing how a lot of HBOs works have taken a nose dive in quality and writting after the first season and also, and I hate to be that guy haha, but Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey are not my Joel and Ellie, Naughty Dog was actually working on a short movie exploring the events before Part 2 dropped that explored what happened with Joel and Ellie, they ended up cancelling it and it's a damn shame because I would give anything to see more interaction between the two characters that made TLOU what it is, or more accurately, what it was.

I think the core problem is that this kind of story is at odds with the nature of a video game. I probably did enjoy it more because, as you wrote, I experienced it as a long film (or a series).

The amount of killing in this kind of game is usually ridiculous, to the point where the player is desensitized to the rampant violence. You kill to progress, and none of the enemies are real.

TLOU2 challenges that concept, not only by forcing the player to see the world from both sides of the coin, but in humanising the NPCs. Even the dog turned out to be a pet. It surely works better when you're a passive viewer, as if it were a film you had no control over.

The only way I can rationalise the violence in TLOU2 is to accept the utter brutality of the world. And the only way to rationalise Ellie's murderous rampage is to accept that her psychological break was so great that she was truly no longer herself. She was possessed by a dark rage. She was living with PTSD, which is characterised by flashbacks, nightmares, repetitive and distressing images or sensations. Her goal of killing Abby was an attempt to exorcise the demon.

The series feels like it ought to form a trilogy. The second part of a trilogy is often characterised by putting the protagonists into crisis or dark places, as with The Empire Strikes Back.

If Druckmann was channelling Conrad then the third part would have Ellie go to some far off place where nobody knows her. A place where she can come to terms with what she's done, and atone - probably by risking her life to help someone, because in death she might find the meaning that she lost when Joel rescued her.

Lev had been that person for Abby.

 

[R_R_X]

I think the core problem is that this kind of story is at odds with the nature of a video game. I probably did enjoy it more because, as you wrote, I experienced it as a long film (or a series).

The amount of killing in this kind of game is usually ridiculous, to the point where the player is desensitized to the rampant violence. You kill to progress, and none of the enemies are real.

TLOU2 challenges that concept, not only by forcing the player to see the world from both sides of the coin, but in humanising the NPCs. Even the dog turned out to be a pet. It surely works better when you're a passive viewer, as if it were a film you had no control over.

The only way I can rationalise the violence in TLOU2 is to accept the utter brutality of the world. And the only way to rationalise Ellie's murderous rampage is to accept that her psychological break was so great that she was truly no longer herself. She was possessed by a dark rage. She was living with PTSD, which is characterised by flashbacks, nightmares, repetitive and distressing images or sensations. Her goal of killing Abby was an attempt to exorcise the demon.

The series feels like it ought to form a trilogy. The second part of a trilogy is often characterised by putting the protagonists into crisis or dark places, as with The Empire Strikes Back.

If Druckmann was channelling Conrad then the third part would have Ellie go to some far off place where nobody knows her. A place where she can come to terms with what she's done, and atone - probably by risking her life to help someone, because in death she might find the meaning that she lost when Joel rescued her.

Lev had been that person for Abby.

That's the very reason some people did not like playing the game, it felt like it was manipulating the player to feel a certain way about each character by having Ellie butcher dogs and countless people, while Abby pets dogs and fights the sadist cultists, all while telling us these people are just survivors like the player but it doesn't feel that way, no matter how many names are thrown around by random NPCs, especially when the last faction you fight are a bunch of piece of **** slavers that torture people for fun, as I said, there's a massive gap between their message and the actual game, violence begets violence yet I do notthig but kill people and dogs the whole time, the only moments of levity are flashbacks that are sparse and don't really progress the story in the present.

I can't rationalise Ellies trajectory in the game but I can see where they were going with it, I feel they should've balanced her gameplay more, because it's really just killing, solving puzzles, more killing and then guitar mini games, and as far as her PTSD, it feels it's only related to Joel and not the countless people she murdered, I think it would've been a genius idea if in the PTSD sequence when Ellie is going down the stairs of the chalet she saw all the NPCs she killed in Seattle (inspired by MGS3 obviously), it would drive home their message and show how truly affected by her actions she was, but it didn't feel that way at all.

RDR2 for example executes the idea of someone struggling with their actions of violence better, Arthur Morgan had been an vicious outlaw his whole life, the gameplay reflects his state of mind but also allows the player to influence some of his actions, when he is diagnosed with tuberculosis, the player is put on a spot, where do we go from here? Do we continue to be a vicious outlaw or do we try to do some good before Arthur checks out? The story directly influences the player, makes them question their actions and gives them the option to seek closure and redemption, in fact the final chapter has a lot of side quests the player can look for that have Arthur helping strangers, including those he wronged earlier in the game, all the while Dutch, his mentor and leader, keeps trying to pull him down a dark path of more worthless violence, that's why a lot of people loved the story of RDR2 it gives the player agency over what road Arthur ultimately chooses and doesn't force them to get redemption, and I do have problems with that game too but what I'm saying is it executed the same ideas TLOU2 presented way better, at least in my opinion.

And I also have to touch on the fact Ellie mentions in her journal her last talk with Joel and it's the memory of that that makes her spare Abby, why did she need to go on the hunt for Abby again and get herself almost killed to reach whatever conclusion she reached at the end? The game should've stuck to the idea her and Joel never got to have that moment she desperately needed, throwing that there in the end, even tho I did love the scene, feels disingenuous and makes the whole journey based on the lie that she hated Joel up until his death.

I feel like the series has to end on a third game as well, reason being TLOU2 put the narrative in a box with it's message, it won't make sense to have one or two more games of Ellie killing people to reach some goal, so I agree that Part 3 needs to follow Ellie on her road to redemption and end her story, and have Abby in it as a side character with maybe a small playable section, I still find her and Lev's relationship to be too rushed for it to work in an organic manner, and her quest for revenge is pratically effortless compared to what Ellie goes through so the parallels don't make sense to me, especially since Abby actually murdered Joel and a bunch of other people and seemed pretty much unaffected mentally by those acts as opposed to Ellie who seemed to be in a constant state of depression up until the very end of the game, which is why I hope TLOU3 offers her and the player the agency to go seek that redemption, I'm curious how do you think a third game will play out? For me a perfect and ambiguous ending like the first 2 games would see Ellie eventually join forces with Abby and sacrifice herself for a cure, finding her closure and then ending the game with a sweet flashback of her and Joel leaving the question of wether or not a cure was made up to the player's interpretation, but I'm sure it won't happen like that seeing how Joel now seems to be hated by his creators and a portion of the fanbase, go figure.

 

[ironwez20]

Yeah lol if someone went Tiger Woods on my adoptive father right in front of me I wouldn’t let them go after going through hell to hunt them down. Such lazy writing.

Thank you!!!! Like wtf was that?