I finally trudged into the thread tonight just to see what the reactions were to Sunday's episode. I just got done watching it for a second time and have to say its even more jolting and even more powerful the second time around. But that's because this is the best show on television right now. The reactions have been what I thought they would be--most people are shocked, stunned but entertained beyond the norm like me and so many others. They are seeing great television and are reacting positively to it. The fans of the novels are happy because Ned's death (and the story leading up to it) was treated brilliantly on screen and it had impact, both emotional and spiritual. That's the mark of a masterful adaptation. And then there's the few who decided to waste their time on wiki spoilers that are doing nothing but whining. They should give up and leave it, for good because its only going to get much more crazier and going to take them out of their comfort zones, for good. That's what I love about this story--you have no comfort zone. You are just as vulnerable as the characters to what they experience. That's brilliant storytelling. I'm still awake right now but I'm going to get back to reading a really good book I started last week. It's called A Game of Thrones.
Spoilers *** ( Well I think, I haven't read any of the books and I don't know where everyone is in terms of watching or reading, but I'll just place this here to be on the safe side)
Personally, I am going to disagree. I don't think Ned Stark was particularly brave at the end. I think Stark was a mix of both high character and arrogance. That combination IMHO made him pretty tragic. I don't think Ned Stark was completely naive and completely incapable of playing the "game" of politics, I just don't think he wanted to do it. He had plenty of warning from all directions from multiple people, I think his arrogance prevented him from using the full skill he had or from truly learning what he needed to protect his family.
What about his sons, now thrust into war?
What about his daughters, did he really need someone to remind him, a seasoned soldier whose own father and brother were slaughtered by a mad king, that their lives were at stake too?
What about his men? All those guards and his nanny and the sword trainer ( who might still be alive...) and the 2000 men that Robb Stark sent to the slaughter as decoys and all the people at Winterfell?
IMHO, if Ned Stark really loved his family, he would have realized he was ill suited and said No to King Robert ( What was Robert going to do? Kill his best friend Ned? Ned to could say No regarding an assassination but not No to the job? ) Or if he loved his family, he would have capitulated much sooner. Again, his father and brother were killed while other men did nothing, it's not like he had zero idea of the possible consequences to family.
I think Ned Stark is a good and moral man, I also think he was extremely arrogant. What honor is there in having one daughter on the run, the other held hostage and teetering on death and his son leading an understrength military force with little experience along with his crippled son at home?
But how did he know any of this would happen? What he knew was that his oldest and best friend was asking of him a great honor, and as a man in this world (remember, this is a world driven by a different set of values than ours) his honor was paramount. To say no was craven, even if he loved his family. Look at the both the guards of the wall and the guards of the king - neither are supposed to take any family for that very reason. Duty must always come first, and Ned believed very much in his duty.
But, just as Aemon told Jon, when it came to deciding between that honor and the life of his daughter, he chose his daughter. Being heroic is all about personal sacrifice, and Ned did just that - he sacrificed the most important value he held personally so that his daughter might live.
IMHO, one of the advantages to the TV series for those of us who did not read the book is the storylines are somewhat predictable in nature ( I enjoy GOT and think it's well made and well written and entertaining, but it's still a TV show, it requires set up and payoffs and basic use of "Chekov's Gun", i.e. things are introduced for a reason to help develop later characters or storylines or plot points) IMHO Ned Stark is like Vito Corleone from the Godfather, it requires his death to drive the story forward. ( Sadly, this sort of sets Robb up to be a bit of "Sonny Corleone" as well) Mufasa from The Lion King was also another example of a character that probably had to bite it to drive a story. Wasn't it obvious that Steven Seagal had to die in Executive Decision for the movie to push forward? ( What, it would taken him 55 minutes to storm the plane if he was able to get onto it?) Also something was going to happen to Drogo and the witch would have had to be prominent ( Otherwise why make it a point to introduce the witch character?) Also a health and committed Drogo would make it a short series. He'd invade otherwise and the show and books series would probably be over.
My guess on Jon Snow, based on the current set up, is he's part Tarygarean. Ned Stark's character construction is too rigid, too arrogant, too morally upright to cheat on his wife. He's like the less bright version of Lucious Vorenus from Rome. Why would he lie to his wife and kingdom and family for? Well it means Snow must be part Stark ( Ned tells him he has Stark blood, but that could mean many things and still be true) And it was evident that the Tarygarean children were slaughtered after the Mad King fell, so Ned Stark would have motive and reason to believe that anything other than deception would mean the death of Jon Snow as an infant. And Ned Stark has shown that he will surrender his "moral code" when a Stark child's life is in danger and he realizes it. ( Sometimes it appears it takes him quite some time to realize it)
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Excellent analysis. Actually, I don't believe that we have any idea on Jon yet in the books (I haven't read all four), but there are some theories. And yes, it's pretty obvious that something is up with his heritage, and it's not all that it seems. Exactly what that might be is pretty up in the air, but one theory that's pretty well supported is (and technically this isn't a spoiler, since it's just a widely held guess, but I figured I'd encase it just the same)
The real reason Robert hated the Targaryans so much is that the son, Rhaegar (I can't remember his spelling either) and Ned's sister were actually in love, and Rhaegar stole her from Robert, breaking Robert's heart. The way he 'killed' her, as Robert has claimed, is in childbirth. Jon is actually the son of her and Rhaegar (therefore having the Stark blood), and she made Ned promise to take her as his own bastard and keep it secret.
Again, as far as I know the books haven't yet revealed the any of this yet.
My guesses on other things, based on my viewpoint of setup/payoff
- Tywin Lannister is going to have to eat it eventually to create breathing room for the Lannister children to develop, find other storylines. Clearly the massive conflict between his midget outcast son will be his undoing.
- Robb, IMHO, is as good as dead before the end of the series. I suspect the development of his jilted whore loving caddy/buddy ( Theon?) and the setup of his arranged marriage foreshadows it. ( In a world where alliances are brokered through marriage, that promise he made to cross a single river is going to bite him in the ass later)
Theon is definitely a character to keep an eye on. Cat doesn't trust him, that's for sure, and he certainly does love violence. I think they've done a great job with hiis character so far this season.
- Dany obviously is going to hatch those three dragon eggs and rebuild herself an army to invade, just not very fast, otherwise the series would end pretty quickly ( As it appears the Mothraki are superior in military terms)
Let's not forget though that if the Khal dies, all those Dothroki are going to have little interest in Dany, her son and anything else that has to do with her. The Dothroki people as a whole are not going to follow a woman.
- Jon Snow will eventually take over the Nightwatch, with his "Samwise" as the heavy set facilitator/broker for his rule. In order to legitimize Snow, he's going to have to marry into a power base to be a formidable future character. My guess is Dany down the road.
Interesting, but I'm not seeing it. I'm only 2/3rds through the second book, but I suspect that the Night's Watch is going to take a heavy hit when the eventual winter comes with all it's nastiness.
- Joffery is not going away anytime soon. But in order for the series to continue, he can't stay on the throne forever, otherwise there is no battle for the throne to last seven books. He's gotta last long enough to encourage war with the surviving Baretheons and Starks. He's either going to discover his true father or he's not. A dead Joffrey creates no conflict for his midget uncle, his real father, Sansa and his mom to understand she didn't have the control over him that she thought. I suspect though when those conflicts are exhausted, then Joffrey is going to have to get his ticket punched. ( I sort of feel for the actor who plays him, Joffery is a really one dimensional character and they picked the most punchable teenage face they could find. I mean he even surpasses Bradley Cooper and Adam Scott for actors who have faces that just scream ********* that needs to get hit by a brick)
They certainly cast him well. I don't think war between the Baratheons and Starks is all that critical a piece, but war between the Baratheons and the Lannisters - now there's a big issue. I think Joffrey's most important role now is to be an annoyance to the rest of his family and the council.
- Cat Stark is a dead woman walking IMHO. She was too foolish to either help or protect her husband ( Cersei might be a sociopath, but at least she doesn't make her situation worse, well besides let her brother wreck her in the pooper) and I suspect that's just enough to get you killed. She also drove away Jon Snow, the only person who seemed to have any potential for real military leadership and competence. If my guesses on Snow's paternity are true, then she's also guilty of not being able to read between the lines. Mike Corleones mother died for effect in Godfather Part II, I suspect Cat Stark will have to die the same way, to change some dynamic in her children's maturity.
I'd agree that she's largely one of the more foolish characters. I'm not a fan of her either in the books or the show, since she claims to trust no one yet seems to fall for their crap on a regular basis. She did handle the Frey's deftly, but she tends to cause more issues than she helps.
I would have had a lot more respect for Ned if he picked a side and stuck on it. If his honor meant that much to him, then he should have let his family die too. Or he should have surrendered everything if his family meant more than his pride and dignity.
Yes, but that was the entire point of Aemon's speech to Jon. He managed to do what you say - choose honor over his family. And yet you can plainly see the regret. There's no real 'win', only regrets and pain either way.
Well, Cersei had nothing to do with it. She completely intended for Ned to take the Black - that's why Yoren is there in the crowd in the first place. Everyone except Joffrey (and someone else too had to be in the know, otherwise why was Ice available for Payne to use?) assumed Ned was headed to the Wall. Let's also not forget that Ned didn't choose to die, he chose to be disgraced.
I doubt it now. I suspect that if we get a second and third series - let's say things go well and the third series completes two years from now - there will be a tremendous amount of pressure on George to get the sixth and seventh books wrapped up, and a far, far greater amount of money being waved in his face to do so as well.
If we don't get that far, then yea, be prepared for a long wait.
One thing I found in reading the first 100 or so pages in the book when compared to the show that bugs me a little
Is that in the book Ned's wife tells him it's his duty to leave and serve the king. In the show she is the one constantly saying how he shouldn't leave.
It's probably minor in the long run. But a night and day difference IMO.
One thing I found in reading the first 100 or so pages in the book when compared to the show that bugs me a little
Is that in the book Ned's wife tells him it's his duty to leave and serve the king. In the show she is the one constantly saying how he shouldn't leave.
It's probably minor in the long run. But a night and day difference IMO.
another thing I'm a bit confused on is why did Cersei seem to care if Ned's life was spared and became part of the Night's watch. Surely she had no love for Ned and he knew her little secret, surely for own sake he was better off dead.
another thing I'm a bit confused on is why did Cersei seem to care if Ned's life was spared and became part of the Night's watch. Surely she had no love for Ned and he knew her little secret, surely for own sake he was better off dead.
If Ned had been kept alive and sent to the Wall, there would have been a better chance to end the fighting between the Lannisters and the Starks without more bloodshed, but now a full-scale war is almost unavoidable.
another thing I'm a bit confused on is why did Cersei seem to care if Ned's life was spared and became part of the Night's watch. Surely she had no love for Ned and he knew her little secret, surely for own sake he was better off dead.
What they said - let's not forget that the real threat to the Lannisters is not the Starks, but the Baratheons. Cersei knows this, and didn't want to add the Starks to the list of people that would be looking to kill them. Now however, war on both sides is inevitable.
The most frustrating thing about this series is how short the season was. That hour flew by, and now we have to wait almost a year for it to start again.
At least I can go ahead and read the book (possibly books) now.
Am I the only one that really has no interest in Conan's wife's storyline? The entire season when it cut to her I was just wondering about what was going on across the sea. The guy protecting her was the only one in the storyline I was interested in.
