Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Don't know what you're talking about, now you're delusional poor thing, *hush* there there.

 

[DGTWoodward]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

"The fact that you possess a sense of morality and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage, and if history has proven anything...
It is that evolution always wins." Faora-Ul

This is my one and only comment on this silly line... This is where we start to fall into the problem of assuming that one single word can mean exactly the same thing in every possible context. The simple truth is that it cannot. Hence 6 pages of cross take the we are engaging in to pass the time until we see more pictures.

It is a badly conceived, written and silly line and here is why,

What...? The escaped Kryptonians don't possess a sense of morality? When did this happen?

Surely the whole film is based on the actions of Zod's (plus by extension Faora) sense of moral outrage. They had to have a sense of morals, their own morality, otherwise how would they have judged that Krypton had stagnated to the point of actual decline. What exactly would they be comparing the old and stagnated Kryptonian society against if it were not their own sense of moral correctness?

Their whole civil was based on their own sense of morality, which stated to them that the whole rest of Kryptonian society was wrong and had taken too many wrong paths to be allowed to continue, hence the (failed) military coup.

For Faora to then say that they have no morals is ludicrous, what she should have said was...

"The fact that you possess Human Values and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage, and if history has proven anything...
It is that evolution always wins." Faora-Ul

...so it now makes perfect sense and even hints at how their sense of Kryptonian values and morals are far superior to the Human races's, and by extension, be allowed to succeed without opposition. It's more like she is making a confident assumption more than an actual comparison.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I still disagree, the word immoral means that they have no morality comparable to the accepted moral code, ergo, acting against such code, that's why the word immoral serves to address individuals who are vicious/not morally correct, they have no comparable morality to Superman at the moment the line was spoken, otherwise, the preservation of the human race would've been in their plans among other things, therefore, opposite moral code could very well mean "no sense of morality".

It's like you said, time and place, context, it's not silly nor badly written.

 

[DGTWoodward]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I still disagree, the word immoral means that they have no morality comparable to the accepted moral code, ergo, acting against such code, that's why the word immoral serves to address individuals who are vicious/not morally correct, they have no comparable morality to Superman in the moment the line was spoken, otherwise, the preservation of the human race would've been in their plans, therefore, opposite moral code could very well mean "no sense of morality".

It's like you said, time and place, context, it's not silly.

But my point was that to them, they are acting morally. They are acting perfectly by their own moral code. Hence, theirs is superior to ours, ergo they can happily get rid if us without any qualms.

Ergo...silly.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

That really doesn't show why is supposed to be silly, I just explained why "no morality" can be perfectly used.

 

[DGTWoodward]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

That really doesn't show why is supposed to be silly, I just explained why "no morality" can be perfectly used.

It's silly because everything they have done has been driven by the own moral code. For her to then say that they have no morals is plain stupid.

I cannot explain it clear than that.


Like I said in my three previous posts...just one post from me on this

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I can't make it any clearer either, their own morality was against both the Kryptonian and Earth's moral code, hence they CAN be called immoral, so it's not stupid and it makes perfect sense, you're looking at the semantics in a very polarizing way.

 

[DGTWoodward]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I can't make it any clearer either, their own morality was against both the Kryptonian and Earth's moral code, hence they CAN be called immoral, so it's not stupid and it makes perfect sense, you're looking at the semantics in a very polarizing way.

This is the whole point my friend, opposing views of morality polarise everything! By your argument, what she should have said then was actually,

"I don't know what you're making such a fuss about, we are morally superior!"

She claimed to be aware of the fact that she had no morals, so your argument is that she knew they were acting criminally and immorally? That's certainly not the vibe I got from Zod. He justified everything he did by his moral code and in his mind was not a criminal.

Your argument says that Faora was just killing people for the enjoyment of it, and she knew it to be so...no morals. No higher purpose (like saving the Kryptonian race) involved at all.

therefore = silly.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Actually no, by my argument the line is fine as it is, still not silly

Faora WAS acting criminally and immorally, it was obvious that she was enjoying toying with her preys and the only glimpse of Zod's personal morality (if you can call it that, since he was "programmed" to protect his people) was the coup and when he said Jor-El that he would sever the bloodlines that led Krypton to it's destruction , the mission afterwards for bringing krypton back and most of their actions and higher purpose were driven by the fact that they were bred to do so, as you know and I'm sure you agree, that morality is a choice, the mission they were carrying out was not a choice, so, in a way, they weren't really acting for their own personal morals (Again, if we can call them morals).

And as for the rest, I still maintain the fact that makes perfect sense to call them immoral.

 

[DGTWoodward]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Actually no, by my argument the line is fine as it is, still not silly

I noticed you skipped the part about her actually only killing and destroying just for the fun of it, becasue she has no morals. No people with higher purposes (like saving your race from total extinction, you know...like your boss) need apply.

And yes of course I'm dealing with semantics, all we have to go on are the words.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I didn't skip I just replied before you modded your post, tis fine now.

And by polarizing, I mean that you're completely ignoring the fact that they CAN be labeled immoral.

 

[yongkykun]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I must say that I agree with DGTWoodward on the matter. She says

"The fact that you possess a sense of morality and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage, and if history has proven anything...
It is that evolution always wins."

Which implies that she does NOT have any sense of morality whilst her superior, Zod, clearly tries to moralize his actions throughout the movie. So it's quite contradictory. And I also don't like how the word evolution is used. Morality (altruism) has been proven time and again as the reason why most social creatures like some mammals (i.e. us) still live to this day. So, again, that quote, while cool, is nothing but gobbledegook.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I respect both of your opinions yet I disagree, completely.

I already explained numerous times why it's perfectly suitable to say "no morality".

And Also, further back, explained how we often ignore our moral code to our convenience both as society and individuals and how different societies have different moral codes and I add to that, that there are dissidents to their own society's moral codes.

It sounds cool and it's well written.

 

[bandito]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I must say that I agree with DGTWoodward on the matter. She says

"The fact that you possess a sense of morality and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage, and if history has proven anything...
It is that evolution always wins."

Which implies that she does NOT have any sense of morality whilst her superior, Zod, clearly tries to moralize his actions throughout the movie. So it's quite contradictory. And I also don't like how the word evolution is used. Morality (altruism) has been proven time and again as the reason why most social creatures like some mammals (i.e. us) still live to this day. So, again, that quote, while cool, is nothing but gobbledegook.

Yes, altruism are not limited to social mammals, but higher organisms in general which includes birds and reptiles as well. Altruism would be part of Morality (but not encompassing it entirety), as Altruism could also be used as a reason for Krytonians would want to wipe out humanity.

Altruism does in fact affect the evolution of the species.... though mostly would reduce the fitness of the species though it does ensure the survivability of the species in a social setting, give and take, pros and cons...

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

At the very least, Faora's statement directly contradicts her superior officer's stated motivation. Maybe she as an individual, really, truly meant it that she doesn't have a sense of morality. Maybe she really just likes killing for killing's sake, not to serve any greater good.

But Zod, her commanding officer, on the other hand really believes what he is doing is right. Sure, maybe not from the general humankind point of view of what is morally right (aka, our specific sense of morality---after all, humans would be the victims), but definitely from his point of view. Throughout the movie, Zod is not killing just to kill (until the ending, anyway)

Zod truly believes that he is doing the right (moral) thing...from his point of view, for his people. If Faora doesn't feel the same way, fine, but she should have said "I" instead of "we".

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alFr55dM7b0[/ame]

 

[Chronos1919]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

At the very least, Faora's statement directly contradicts her superior officer's stated motivation. Maybe she as an individual, really, truly meant it that she doesn't have a sense of morality. Maybe she really just likes killing for killing's sake, not to serve any greater good.

But Zod, her commanding officer, on the other hand really believes what he is doing is right. Sure, maybe not from the general humankind point of view of what is morally right (aka, our specific sense of morality---after all, humans would be the victims), but definitely from his point of view. Throughout the movie, Zod is not killing just to kill (until the ending, anyway)

Zod truly believes that he is doing the right (moral) thing...from his point of view, for his people. If Faora doesn't feel the same way, fine, but she should have said "I" instead of "we".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alFr55dM7b0

I disagree. It's explained that Kryptonians are being breed for a specific purpose. Zod's purpose is to defend Krypton and its people. With no people to defend Zod has no purpose. I think his major motivator is his genetic engineering and his sense of duty, not morals.

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I disagree. It's explained that Kryptonians are being breed for a specific purpose. Zod's purpose is to defend Krypton and its people. With no people to defend Zod has no purpose. I think his major motivator is his genetic engineering and his sense of duty, not morals.

So the bred Kryptonians are robots? Their purpose in life is encoded into their DNA, yes, but that's clearly not their only motivator. If it was, Jor-El and Lara wouldn't be able to resist their "coding" and have a natural childbirth. Once Zod was clearly defeated by Kal-El and he had no possibility of saving his people, he was without purpose right? So, why does he want to keep fighting? There is no hope of rebuilding Krypton. What is he fighting for at that point?

 

[yongkykun]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I disagree. It's explained that Kryptonians are being breed for a specific purpose. Zod's purpose is to defend Krypton and its people. With no people to defend Zod has no purpose. I think his major motivator is his genetic engineering and his sense of duty, not morals.

You've just proved my point there. They use genetic engineering to make their own people live as drones which is saying that they do not evolve thus proving me earlier point that Feora's quote is just cool sounding and nothing more. Besides, Supe's the only one evolving in the movie.

 

[bandito]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

You've just proved my point there. They use genetic engineering to make their own people live as drones which is saying that they do not evolve thus proving me earlier point that Feora's quote is just cool sounding and nothing more. Besides, Supe's the only one evolving in the movie.

Assuming Kryptonians' gametes recombination works like human's.... One specific recombination (Generation 1) does not encompass "Evolving" or evolution.... A superior hybrid maybe more appropriate term for Kal-El (assuming he's more superior).

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Don't know what you're talking about, now you're delusional poor thing, *hush* there there.

Are you still kidding around - or are you being a deliberate smartarse now?