1/6 Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker-CRAIT (Force Projection) -

[TaliBane]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I find your two points above to be unpersuasive, since I don't believe Luke would have had spare wings in cargo that were not originally part of his starship. Also, it is plausible that Luke had to cut the wing to fit the doorframe, thereby losing one ID mark.

From what is seen onscreen, I think it is clear that the filmmaker, with two references (the submerged starship and the hut door), was showing that Luke had scuttled his craft, and partially dismantled it. Conclusion? Dude's not going anywhere.

I know that you are disappointed that what was shown onscreen is not as visually striking as what was seen in the artwork for the film, but what was shown was sufficient to convey that Luke had scuttled the craft, meaning that he had no intention of leaving Ahch-To, and no means to do so.

(On a side note: how is everyone pronouncing "Ahch-To"? The way I say it, it sounds like "Botch-toe," but I could be way off base here.)

"not as visually striking"? Wor-gar said it better than me:

But I have to agree that it doesn't look damaged underwater to me at all. Just looks submerged. Deliberate obviously, because making it look like an inoperable wreck would have been really easy.

People keep going around and around on this, but if you as a filmmaker need to get across "wrecked/unusable fighter" in a 2 second shot, you do NOT show what they showed in the movie, which is DEBATABLE what it means. You show a fighter that's missing its wings, crashed/destroyed at the bottom of a cliff - or something like in the artwork.

The artwork isn't more "visually striking" as you say - it is 100% CLEAR that the fighter is unusable. The shot in the movie is NOT CLEAR in this regard. It is therefore deliberate on the part of the filmmakers - there's no way to argue otherwise

It is 100% the Red 5 wing being used for the door. If you watch the movie and freeze frame it when the door is shown you can clearly see the 5 stripes or hash marks. The bottom one has a lot more dirt on it but it is there.

The intent behind the movie is pretty clear, Luke's X-wing is submerged and he used it for parts to make doors and who knows what else on the island. Conclusion the X-wing is toast and he means to stay on the island. There are many more inconsistencies or not clearly explained implications in the OT that easily get overlooked. Why is everyone getting hung up on the X-Wing in TLJ? Don't get me wrong I love that we can have a CIVIL discussion about SW minutiae(especially nowadays with all the negativity) but not sure why this is a thing.

No, in the movie frame there isn't a fifth red/crimson hash mark, clearly visible at least. The door is pretty heavily weathered though, so it's not to say it isn't there but just isn't quite visible as its only shown briefly. The door also has part of the chevron and the fighter shown underwater appears to have its chevrons fully intact, at least on the upper side wings (there are markings on the under wings also.)

It doesn't matter anyway because as I said, the fighter that is submerged only has chevrons, no hash marks. So the door's not from the same fighter.

And... as I mentioned several times, this is a "thing" because it's about whether Luke had the option of flying to Crait, meaning he chooses to do the holo-projection thing instead.


One thing that people also don't seem to get is that... in theory... using brief ("non-fatal") sessions of holo-projection, Luke could in fact literally travel anywhere he wanted in the galaxy to do whatever he needed to do without the need for an x-wing fighter anyway. It's a bit like people needing their car less to drive to the mall because they can shop online.

It does open a few issues though - like Ben in ANH simply doing a 60 second holo-projection to Alderaan (or a series of 60 second holo-projections spread over hours to rest) to alert them that Leia had been captured and that he has the death star plans. BUt then... there wouldn't be an OT.

Thanks. One last shot of Luke's X-Wing in it's "grave" so to speak not only would have clinched the notion that he *had* to project himself (after the big reveal of course) but would have served as a nice curtain call for arguably the second most iconic ship in all of Star Wars.

I hope some fan eventually does that as a CGI shot in one of those "fan edits" - it's an amazingly cool idea. It's the Luke coda that was missing for me and perfect way to tie the plot aspect to a fitting/haunting tribute to Luke and how we remember him best. It could have been quite emotional.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

1. Again, there was never any doubt in my mind that Luke sunk his X-wing, intentionally, and never had any intention of leaving again. Dunno what people are thinking? That he would raise an x-wing from the bottom of a salt ocean ala Yoda? Again I think when people saw that shot, they assumed Luke would do just that by the end, and go into action star mode and save all the new characters...

2. I noticed the door....They show a pretty clear shot of it right before Chewie knocks it in...and people think this didn’t come from that same sunken X-wing? Where did it come from then. Cause I didn’t see to many other X-wings on that island.

3. What difference does it make if its Red-5 or not?

4. Obi Wan or any other Jedi could have Projected.....had they KNOWN about it. Which clearly they either did , and choose not to use it due to the consequences, or more likely were unaware of it, and perhaps Luke learned the trick from the sacred texts...

We never got an explanation as to how and why Obi can become one with the force (force ghost) until late in the PT. So why are all the other Jedi not force ghosting all over the place haunting Vader or training new Jedi?? Well cause its answers in PT that only Yoda knew cause only Qui Gon figured it out????? Thats probably one the most plot forced devices in the entire saga....way worse than Luke learning a new Jedi skill somewhere?? Actually its exactly the same!!!

Again, it just seems some SW fans want everything spoon-fed to them. I bet the will get alot of that exposition in the final chapter.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[momaw]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

4. Obi Wan or any other Jedi could have Projected.....had they KNOWN about it. Which clearly they either did , and choose not to use it due to the consequences, or more likely were unaware of it, and perhaps Luke learned the trick from the sacred texts...

We never got an explanation as to how and why Obi can become one with the force (force ghost) until late in the PT. So why are all the other Jedi not force ghosting all over the place haunting Vader or training new Jedi?? Well cause its answers in PT that only Yoda knew cause only Qui Gon figured it out????? Thats probably one the most plot forced devices in the entire saga....way worse than Luke learning a new Jedi skill somewhere?? Actually its exactly the same!!!

After the PT, I've always assumed that "force ghosting" is in fact the eternal life that Darth Plagueis was seeking albeit not in the fashion he probably assumed it would take. Qui Gon figured it out and passed it onto Yoda, who passed it on to Ben. How Vader got it, I'm not sure. My guess is he finally figured out what Ben was saying when he said "'If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and then found the answer himself. He certainly didn't share it with Palpatine. But that wasn't really important to me so I didn't dwell on it. I suspect it's a secret Luke hasn't shared yet either. So i'm fine with the notion that it and also force projecting isn't a widespread power that any force user knows about or can master. While Kylo had heard of it, I suspect it was more through myth and legend rather than experience.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

One thing that people also don't seem to get is that... in theory... using brief ("non-fatal") sessions of holo-projection, Luke could in fact literally travel anywhere he wanted in the galaxy to do whatever he needed to do without the need for an x-wing fighter anyway. It's a bit like people needing their car less to drive to the mall because they can shop online.

It does open a few issues though - like Ben in ANH simply doing a 60 second holo-projection to Alderaan (or a series of 60 second holo-projections spread over hours to rest) to alert them that Leia had been captured and that he has the death star plans. BUt then... there wouldn't be an OT.

These concerns can be easily remedied. All LFL/Disney would need to do is publish a future reference journal (or some other "canon" book) that describes Force projection this way:

In order to even generate a Force projection of himself, Luke had to transfer a great deal of his life energy onto his projected form. Only the most powerful of Jedi masters could even begin to initiate (much less harness and control) such a transfer. And the act itself has deadly consequences, as dissolving the projection requires the transferred life energy to also dissolve along with it. Knowing that a projection of himself would cost him his life, he carried forward in the hopes of preserving not only the lives of the remaining Resistance members, but also the hope to inspire them to continue their struggle.

Loophole closed; problem solved. (You're welcome, Disney.)

 

[TaliBane]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

1. Again, there was never any doubt in my mind that Luke sunk his X-wing, intentionally, and never had any intention of leaving again. Dunno what people are thinking? That he would raise an x-wing from the bottom of a salt ocean ala Yoda? Again I think when people saw that shot, they assumed Luke would do just that by the end, and go into action star mode and save all the new characters...

2. I noticed the door....They show a pretty clear shot of it right before Chewie knocks it in...and people think this didn’t come from that same sunken X-wing? Where did it come from then. Cause I didn’t see to many other X-wings on that island.

3. What difference does it make if its Red-5 or not?

4. Obi Wan or any other Jedi could have Projected.....had they KNOWN about it. Which clearly they either did , and choose not to use it due to the consequences, or more likely were unaware of it, and perhaps Luke learned the trick from the sacred texts...

We never got an explanation as to how and why Obi can become one with the force (force ghost) until late in the PT. So why are all the other Jedi not force ghosting all over the place haunting Vader or training new Jedi?? Well cause its answers in PT that only Yoda knew cause only Qui Gon figured it out????? Thats probably one the most plot forced devices in the entire saga....way worse than Luke learning a new Jedi skill somewhere?? Actually its exactly the same!!!

Again, it just seems some SW fans want everything spoon-fed to them. I bet the will get alot of that exposition in the final chapter.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

1. That is exactly the point I'm making - that the filmmakers decided to make it unclear whether the x-wing could fly or not so "people saw that shot, they assumed Luke would do just that by the end, and go into action star mode and save all the new characters." You seem to be saying that in disagreement, but that's precisely the point I'm making: the shot itself doesn't convey "wrecked/inoperable" regardless of your assumptions.

2. To clarify one more time, the sunken x-wing's markings only has chevrons, no tags. The door shows part of a chevron, as well as tags (4 or 5 depending on what you see) so it isn't from the same x-wing. How Luke got to the island, whether other x-wings came or went over the years, whether it was simply a spare part (it's small enough that it could have been carried,) is unknown. What we DO know is that it did not visibly come from the sunken x-wing because there is no "hole" visible where it was taken, and also the markings don't match.

3. Only because that's what the visual guide said.

4. That's a lot of perhaps-ing. The simple fact is, even LFL/Disney has stayed away from trying to explain the holo-projection thing in books etc (beyond the obvious, face-value stuff you see onscreen) - presumably because it opens cans of worms just like the example I cited.

People have to go all "Luke was the ultimate-super-ultimate Jedi so that's why he could do it" yet there really isn't much that indicates why any other Jedi, Ben included, couldn't have done it during the OT... and it potentially wreaks havoc with OT storylines.

And the very fact that all of this is so unclear to everyone (you included) says a bit of "spoonfeeding" would have actually served a purpose. When fundamental things are completely unclear - no, it's not like "fun conjecture with stuff like in the OT."

After the PT, I've always assumed that "force ghosting" is in fact the eternal life that Darth Plagueis was seeking albeit not in the fashion he probably assumed it would take. Qui Gon figured it out and passed it onto Yoda, who passed it on to Ben. How Vader got it, I'm not sure. My guess is he finally figured out what Ben was saying when he said "'If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and then found the answer himself. He certainly didn't share it with Palpatine. But that wasn't really important to me so I didn't dwell on it. I suspect it's a secret Luke hasn't shared yet either. So i'm fine with the notion that it and also force projecting isn't a widespread power that any force user knows about or can master. While Kylo had heard of it, I suspect it was more through myth and legend rather than experience.

These concerns can be easily remedied. All LFL/Disney would need to do is publish a future reference journal (or some other "canon" book) that describes Force projection this way:

In order to even generate a Force projection of himself, Luke had to transfer a great deal of his life energy onto his projected form. Only the most powerful of Jedi masters could even begin to initiate (much less harness and control) such a transfer. And the act itself has deadly consequences, as dissolving the projection requires the transferred life energy to also dissolve along with it. Knowing that a projection of himself would cost him his life, he carried forward in the hopes of preserving not only the lives of the remaining Resistance members, but also the hope to inspire them to continue their struggle.

Loophole closed; problem solved. (You're welcome, Disney.)

These comments speak volumes about how completely unclear holo-projection is. For a universe that has a Pablo Hidalgo answer and long explanation for everything, they are clearly avoiding this one, letting fan conjecture fill the void.

My example stands - Ben Kenobi could have done a series of short holo-projections to Alderaan right from his hut and told them about Leia's capture and the fact he had the DS plans. Yoda could have used holo-projection to aid Luke on Bespin. Thereby short-circuiting entire plotlines in the OT.

Honestly, these are questions I may "confront" Pablo with at some point via Twitter, because honestly - there is nothing written or in the movie that precludes these things from happening.

 

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

With the positioning of the craft as we see it we can’t see all four foils anyway. Logic would dictate it’s one of the bottom foils.

Also, the guide doesn’t say it’s “Red 5”. It says T-65 X-Wing.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

My example stands - Ben Kenobi could have done a series of short holo-projections to Alderaan right from his hut and told them about Leia's capture and the fact he had the DS plans. Yoda could have used holo-projection to aid Luke on Bespin. Thereby short-circuiting entire plotlines in the OT.

And what would keep Kenobi and Yoda from using their Force ghosts the same way as holo-projections? What kept Obi-Wan's ghost from providing the same aid to Luke on Bespin (to use your own example)? Why didn't ghost Kenobi train Luke? Why didn't he use his ghost form to warn Luke of the Wampa? Couldn't Yoda's ghost have helped Luke avoid Palpatine's trap in ROTJ?

Weren't these "entire plotlines in the OT" already open to being "short-circuited" by Force ghosts before Force projections? Why is the TLJ Force projection under a different level of scrutiny than a previous Force ability (ghosts) that can present the same plot holes in the OT?

As a matter of fact, can you please offer me some insight as to why TLJ (or the ST in general) needs to meet a new and higher standard of exposition, explanation, and gap-filling?

Is the Force projection the first Force power that hadn't been seen or explained before? Did Palpatine's Force lightning get explained in ROTJ? And why Vader couldn't/didn't use it?

How did Anakin get a Force ghost without disappearing upon death like Obi-Wan and Yoda? Are the two things connected?

I can't help but perceive the TLJ objections as tinged with a double-standard. Am I wrong?

 

[Saintv1]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Here’s a notion: Obi-Wan may not have had the ability, or the knowledge that it could be done.

 

[Saintv1]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

And what would keep Kenobi and Yoda from using their Force ghosts the same way as holo-projections? What kept Obi-Wan's ghost from providing the same aid to Luke on Bespin (to use your own example)? Why didn't ghost Kenobi train Luke? Why didn't he use his ghost form to warn Luke of the Wampa? Couldn't Yoda's ghost have helped Luke avoid Palpatine's trap in ROTJ?

Weren't these "entire plotlines in the OT" already open to being "short-circuited" by Force ghosts before Force projections? Why is the TLJ Force projection under a different level of scrutiny than a previous Force ability (ghosts) that can present the same plot holes in the OT?

As a matter of fact, can you please offer me some insight as to why TLJ (or the ST in general) needs to meet a new and higher standard of exposition, explanation, and gap-filling?

Is the Force projection the first Force power that hadn't been seen or explained before? Did Palpatine's Force lightning get explained in ROTJ? And why Vader couldn't/didn't use it?

How did Anakin get a Force ghost without disappearing upon death like Obi-Wan and Yoda? Are the two things connected?

I can't help but perceive the TLJ objections as tinged with a double-standard. Am I wrong?

You are correct. If ESB came out today it would be eaten alive by fanboys. ROTJ, too. It would be all “Oh my God, Kershner ruined Star Wars by making the villain Luke’s father!” Etc, etc.

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Still no preorder huh?

 

[Hoody999]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Still no preorder huh?

Haha. No.

But I wish it would turn up to deviate peoples thoughts from a submerged X-Wing [emoji14]

 

[jedijim3002]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Discussion over the movie is getting so boring.

I’d rather see pics of the figure, particularly the headsculpt, so I can decide if I will be getting a figure from the most divisive Star Wars movie in history.

 

[Hoody999]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Discussion over the movie is getting so boring.

I’d rather see pics of the figure, particularly the headsculpt, so I can decide if I will be getting a figure from the most divisive Star Wars movie in history.

In agreeance there.

The figure looked very near completion. Headsculpt pics from Jc Hong should be next. Maybe we'll get something next week. This week was a bust.

 

[Username]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

2. To clarify one more time, the sunken x-wing's markings only has chevrons, no tags. The door shows part of a chevron, as well as tags (4 or 5 depending on what you see) so it isn't from the same x-wing. How Luke got to the island, whether other x-wings came or went over the years, whether it was simply a spare part (it's small enough that it could have been carried,) is unknown. What we DO know is that it did not visibly come from the sunken x-wing because there is no "hole" visible where it was taken, and also the markings don't match.

It only means that it was from the underside.
We know Luke must have gotten there in THAT x wing. He’s the only Jedi who flew one and he’s the ONLY person on the island. We also know that NO-ONE else knew he was there except the small piece of the map. So it only points to the fact the door came from a part of the x wing we can’t see. The bottom wings.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

This discussion about the X Wing is hilarious. The intent behind it is so clear. Luke came to the island to die, he says it himself. Submerged x wing + salvaged wing door on hut(obviously from the underside so we the audience can still tell it’s an x wing from the wavy profile) = it’s Lukes x wing.

Now to give another example of this same thing. The OT Falcon has an astounding # of changes from film to film, markings and entire landing structures change. Does that mean that Han has 2 Falcons or they are not the same ship? Obviously not, but it is forgiven because it’s the OT.

Now let’s get back to this figure.

 

[Khev]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I agree that assuming that the dilapidated old X-Wing foil in Luke's doorway came from the dilapidated X-Wing under the waves is simple common sense (though I certainly didn't recognize his door as such until it was pointed out after I'd seen the film.)

I also agree that Force projecting raises no more narrative challenges than Force ghosts. In fact the earlier draft excerpts of ROTJ from the Annotated Screenplays showed just how much Lucas and Kasdan were struggling with trying to figure out just how involved the ghosts of Yoda and Ben should be in Luke's final confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. In fact one draft even had Yoda's ghost deflecting an attack from the Emperor!

Lucas seemed to settle on the idea that being a ghost is a limited thing that requires lots of skill and concentration and that eventually a Jedi's time as a ghost will be spent and they become one with the Force and that manifesting too often will quicken that process. Obviously Yoda appearing in TLJ goes against that but it's not like George ever spelled it out on film one way or another.

The only way Force projecting could have been an issue would have been if Luke survived TLJ. Because then it would beg the question as to why doesn't he just keep doing it (in limited measure so as not to die) repeatedly to harass the remaining top brass of the FO until they are vanquished. Now that question can be directed at his ghost instead, lol.

The only thing in these new films that has struck me as not really gelling with my understanding of the OT was the system to system communication in Rogue One. Jyn's mom called Saw Gerrera who was assumedly on another planet and then later Cassian and K-2 were able to communicate with Alliance HQ on Yavin all the way from Eadu. I never really got the impression that that was possible in the OT hence the need for messages to be delivered in person or on disk. If sending communications across hyperspace was a thing in the OT then you think that Han could have either called the Alliance for help after the Star Destroyers dumped their trash or at the very least he could have reached out to Lando much sooner than waiting until he was in Cloud City airspace so to speak.

Then again when Leia arrives on Yavin in ANH General Dodonna acts like they've already heard about Alderaan so maybe such communication was always possible *shrugs*. Who knows but as with many of these issues I find it's best not to scrutinize too much and just enjoy the adventure.

 

[RTFLYER]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Wtf happened to this thread???

 

[vito81]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Wtf happened to this thread??? ��

Now, it's the holy bible of Ach-to.

 

[Cagoda]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Wtf happened to this thread???

Force ghost Yoda came down and started a dumpster fire.

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Here’s a notion: Obi-Wan may not have had the ability, or the knowledge that it could be done.

Maybe Luke found Force projection in the ancient Jedi texts. The ones he read, anyway.

Also, people are overanalysing the X-wing (no kidding!) I believe it was meant to appear unflyable when we saw it. When Luke appears on Crait, we’re supposed to think “How did he get here?” or “Did he somehow salvage that X-wing?”