1/6 Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker-CRAIT (Force Projection) -

[Saintv1]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Regarding the X-Wing, my assumption while watching the film was that the distance was too great for Like to fly to Crait in time to make a difference once he decided to help, hence the projection. Now, having seen the production art, I think revealing the X-Wing to be non functional after Luke's deception was revealed would have been a smart move.

As for projection and the first ghosts? It's important to remember that force is pretty fluid. Not all users have the same aptitudes and even a user's own abilities can fluctuate according to their mental or physical state. Other Jedi might not have known it was possible to achieve this projection, or they might not have had the necessary power or skill.

Luke apparently (barring further details) spent the bulk of his Jedi career in a period of galactic peace. This, and the fact that Luke was never really trained as a warrior, implies he could have spent the intervening time exploring other areas of the force. It's possible he was the first (or the first of the modern era) to discover this power.

Further, since the power killed him, it's unclear how practical it would be for people who did use it. I assumed the distance is what killed Luke, but it could be any number of things. Consider that in order to project effectively, one must also be able to remotely see and hear the area being projected to. This requires Luke to clearly, accurately see Crait in complete detail from second to second. This is an extreme extension of the remote viewing powers of Jedi as demonstrated by Yoda and Luke in Empire.

Additionally, for Luke projection to be effective, he had to do things like simulate the effect of the environment on his person. He did it with wind, but not with salt, suggesting that this was a difficult task and Luke had to prioritize what to simulate.

All things considered, projection MUST be an incredibly advanced technique, requiring not just raw power but a great mental effort.

For those reasons I don't think there's any issue with force projection as it affects the rest of the lore.

Force ghosts are another issue, because even in the OT they were a problem. We don't know if these forms have any limitations (in the EU they did, but that's gone) so we have to wonder if Obi-Wan could have been around all the time, giving Luke all the information he needed. Since he didn't do that, either there are limitations to this ability, or its users are making a conscious choice to when to interfere or not.

When Obi-Wan tells Luke he can't help him if Like goes to Bespin, it's interesting. Is it because Vader's presence somehow prevents it? Or is it because Obi-Wan refuses to aid Luke on a path he believes is reckless?

It may be that interacting with the physical world is difficult, or a unique, learned skill. Or it may be that these figures choose not to interfere. I assume the former, since the latter seems a little more problematic when the date of the galaxy is in the balance.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Great post, Saintv1! So many interesting points that I'd like to touch on; but in the interest of time, there's one thing in particular you mentioned that doesn't get brought up much. It isn't related to Force projections or Force ghosts, but I don't think it gets nearly enough consideration when people are debating why/how Luke turns away from everything and goes into exile.

Luke apparently (barring further details) spent the bulk of his Jedi career in a period of galactic peace.

I agree with your interpretation that Luke spent much of his post-ROTJ days in a peaceful era (and he all but spells that out to Rey when he tells her about the "balance" that existed). And this is part of the reason why Luke would feel so much guilt over what happened to his nephew. Not only did he fail to keep young Ben from being corrupted by the dark side of the Force, but he empowered him -and possibly others (the Knights of Ren) - to become an effective weapon for the dark side. All while the galaxy had finally enjoyed peace again.

By deciding to train a new generation of Jedi, Luke opened the door to the same tragic fate that had been his father's. If this happened amidst ongoing war and conflict, it might not be as devastating. But the fact that there was peace in the galaxy (after hard-fought struggles to earn it) is a key part of what would make Luke feel personally responsible for providing a means for that galactic peace to end. Undoing all that had been repaired and earned at great cost. That's not just simple guilt over something personal that won't have broad-reaching implications; that's guilt over something that will contribute to costing people (entire planets even) their lives.

Training a group of kids to learn Jedi powers and abilities, and have some of them ultimately become weapons who serve evil with those Luke-trained powers and abilities - all in a time when there had been peace - is a heavy responsibility. In this context, I think Luke's exile and desire to bring an end to the Jedi (an end to repeating this same cycle) is a reasonable story plot. Plenty of people object to Luke walking away from everything, and I think often mischaracterize the weight/impact of the responsibility and guilt he would've felt.

It wasn't some simple failure to just "get over" and try to fix. It was realizing that he was allowing the same formula that had torn his family, and helped tear the whole galaxy, apart. It wasn't just about Luke; it was about the whole Jedi concept - about using the Force to empower beings who might ultimately use those powers to serve evil. How would he end that? Not only in the present, but to prevent the repeated cycle in the future? And the fact that there had finally been galactic peace is a key component.

Sorry for sidetracking the Force projection/Force ghost conversation, but the motivation for Luke walking away from everything has been a sticking point for many, and a big reason why some people feel his treatment in TLJ was unjust. I think that particular criticism doesn't get the proper context often enough.

 

[TaliBane]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

The Force ghost manifestation had no on-screen explanation whatsoever until ROTS, when Yoda tells Kenobi that Qui-Gon has discovered how to communicate with the living world from beyond it. If Qui-Gon was the first to learn it (after multiple generations had come and gone), then it's obviously a learned skill - and an elusive (thereby likely difficult to master) one. Add that to that fact that only Jedi seem capable of it (unless Han gets one), and it becomes a Jedi ability. Like a Force projection.

Also, nothing indicates that Luke only died because of the prolonged use of the projection. In fact, Kylo telling Rey that the effort would kill her (after mere seconds) suggests that casting the projection itself is what requires a fatal amount of effort/energy. As I hinted at before (semi-jokingly), the Force projection can be easily defined going forward as being so difficult to even generate in the first place that the effort takes a deadly toll. Luke's holding onto it for so long could also be explained as a sharing of "life energy" between the real and projected versions of him; and when the projection ends, the real version is left drained in the material world. Or, LFL can just leave Force projecting undefined or incredibly vague . . . like Force ghosts.

But I completely agree with you about Yoda's ghost summoning the lightning bolt in the physical world. Bad idea that did indeed open up way too big of a can of worms. I'm still surprised that Johnson didn't understand the implications of that well enough to avoid including it.

This becomes kind of a fan theory version of whack-a-mole.

I thought you might try to "fan theory" it again, so the language I used in my previous post is straight from the semi-official Wookiepedia:

"Such an ability, while very powerful, nonetheless had severe consequences when utilized: prolonged use of the ability would result in the user's death." (Force Projection)

"The effort to create the projection was too much for Luke, and he collapses from exhaustion. With the last of his strength, he climbs up to the cliff... Luke then dies and his body vanishes as he becomes one with the Force." (TLJ synopsis - Wookiepedia)

And why do you need an "explanation" for a force ghost? While it is obviously melded with the Force mythology because it's SW, the force ghost is in essence someone who has died and lives on much like ghosts as commonly understood . It's also obviously an expansion of the idea that people who were close to or important to you (a loved one, a mentor etc) will be always be with you "in spirit." Why do you need ROTS and Qui-Gon and all that junk to explain something that's been deeply felt in the hearts of human beings for centuries including you?

Maybe you're not old enough, but when you are you'll experience it - doing something then remembering a deceased teacher or parent who taught you how to do it, and it's almost them speaking to you again, or you discussing it with them. THAT'S what the origin of a force ghost is - its what makes it emotionally powerful (however, it's NOT your deceased mentor stepping in to lift/burn/alter something in the physical world for you, as shown in TLJ.)

The force projection idea is a totally different construct that is more in the realm of a magician's trick or gag, so it DOES require explanation, and also rules, because it's what kills Luke Skywalker.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

And why do you need an "explanation" for a force ghost? While it is obviously melded with the Force mythology because it's SW, the force ghost is in essence someone who has died and lives on much like ghosts as commonly understood . It's also obviously an expansion of the idea that people who were close to or important to you (a loved one, a mentor etc) will be always be with you "in spirit." Why do you need ROTS and Qui-Gon and all that junk to explain something that's been deeply felt in the hearts of human beings for centuries including you?

What!?? As of Episode III, a Force ghost is NOT merely the spirit of someone who died "much like ghosts as commonly understood." Several generations of Jedi had died before Qui-Gon, yet he was the first to make contact with the living. You don't think that's a relevant aspect of the Force ghost mythology and its definition? That was the genesis of it, as defined by Lucas himself.

Why are you willfully ignoring what you already know? Qui-Gon kick-started Force ghosts. That means that dead Jedi weren't just manifesting these spiritual personas on their own as a natural consequence of dying. It took one Jedi in particular to figure out the ability and teach it to Kenobi, Yoda, and possibly Anakin. You might not like that ROTS changed previous perceptions, but each chapter in the story is part of the larger saga (like it or not). Asserting now that a Force ghost requires no special understanding/ability of how to harness, generate, and sustain it is laughable given what we've known since Episode III in 2005.

Since you seem to consider Wookieepedia as a good source for defining Force abilities, you should probably read the entry there for what a "Force spirit" is. I'll even save you the time; as here's a quote from the entry:

"Through special training, certain beings were able to appear as Force spirits through the Force. The knowledge was open only to those who followed the light side, so the only known individuals with the ability to manifest after death were Jedi. It was made possible by energy from the Living Force flowing into the Cosmic Force. The Force Priestesses, who dwelled on the planet, said to be the origin of the midi-chlorians, taught the skill to Qui-Gon Jinn, the first known Jedi to learn the secret."

You can read the whole entry for yourself here: https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_spirit

This becomes kind of a fan theory version of whack-a-mole.

I thought you might try to "fan theory" it again, so the language I used in my previous post is straight from the semi-official Wookiepedia:

"Such an ability, while very powerful, nonetheless had severe consequences when utilized: prolonged use of the ability would result in the user's death." (Force Projection)

"The effort to create the projection was too much for Luke, and he collapses from exhaustion. With the last of his strength, he climbs up to the cliff... Luke then dies and his body vanishes as he becomes one with the Force." (TLJ synopsis - Wookiepedia)

That second quote actually says that the effort to "create" not "sustain" was too much for Luke, but I'll just concede the point to you because the specifics of what aspect really killed him are pure conjecture, and can be undone in some future film or book (wouldn't be the first time). Either way, nothing changes the fact that both the Force projection and the Force ghost are Jedi abilities that could be used in much the same way to convey messages or distract others. I don't know why you persist in pretending otherwise, but I'm more than happy to keep reminding you that the loopholes and plot criticisms that you've tried to apply to Force projection would have been the case long ago with Force ghosts.

 

[Smash]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

What!?? As of Episode III, a Force ghost is NOT merely the spirit of someone who died "much like ghosts as commonly understood." Several generations of Jedi had died before Qui-Gon, yet he was the first to make contact with the living. You don't think that's a relevant aspect of the Force ghost mythology and its definition? That was the genesis of it, as defined by Lucas himself.

Why are you willfully ignoring what you already know? Qui-Gon kick-started Force ghosts. That means that dead Jedi weren't just manifesting these spiritual personas on their own as a natural consequence of dying. It took one Jedi in particular to figure out the ability and teach it to Kenobi, Yoda, and possibly Anakin. You might not like that ROTS changed previous perceptions, but each chapter in the story is part of the larger saga (like it or not). Asserting now that a Force ghost requires no special understanding/ability of how to harness, generate, and sustain it is laughable given what we've known since Episode III in 2005.

Since you seem to consider Wookieepedia as a good source for defining Force abilities, you should probably read the entry there for what a "Force spirit" is. I'll even save you the time; as here's a quote from the entry:



You can read the whole entry for yourself here: https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_spirit



That second quote actually says that the effort to "create" not "sustain" was too much for Luke, but I'll just concede the point to you because the specifics of what aspect really killed him are pure conjecture, and can be undone in some future film or book (wouldn't be the first time). Either way, nothing changes the fact that both the Force projection and the Force ghost are Jedi abilities that could be used in much the same way to convey messages or distract others. I don't know why you persist in pretending otherwise, but I'm more than happy to keep reminding you that the loopholes and plot criticisms that you've tried to apply to Force projection would have been the case long ago with Force ghosts.

I feel like the whole Force Projection thing was pretty specified in the movie if you pay attention. We don't really need a book of rules or something explaining it. Kylo says in the beginning, "You're not doing this, the effort would kill you" to Rey regarding projection. Luke later does this across the galaxy for an extremely long period of time. He's clearly drained and becomes one with the force. Using the power killed him. It's not the first time we've seen anyone strain to use any kind of force power either, so we know the force can take a toll on people regardless... so I'm not sure why that's suddenly an issue in TLJ. Anyway, as far as it making sense, the movie tells you all we need to know. Hell, TLJ explained the force powers they introduced more than many of the other movies explain any of the ones they introduce. I think ANH is really the only one where they give any kind of explanation for powers.

I'm honestly surprised people are pissed about the Yoda force ghost thing and Luke's projection and becoming one with the force. I mean, outside of him dying or not - the implications of what force ghosts can do are making people upset?

Obi-Wan sits on physical objects, the original script for ROTJ has Yoda and Obi-Wan helping Luke kick ***, etc.. I took Yoda's lighting scene as more of opening up possibilities for ghosts. With Luke becoming one with the force, and also some of the stuff we've seen with that in Rebels, isn't that all a good thing? It gives Luke the opportunity to basically be a guardian for all of the future in the galaxy. I kind of thought part of the point of the projection, given to how parts of it were similar to being a ghost, was to show how effective Luke could be as a ghost. He can still save people, even if he's not really there.

Remember, the majority of the galaxy has no idea he is dead. I think Leia, Rey, and MAYBE Kylo know he's dead. To the rest of the galaxy, he's this legendary figure who keeps popping up and doing these amazing things. He can continue to do that.

 

[SilverStar17]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Was it ever said that Qui-Gon was the first one ever to do it, or that he simply learned/found out how to do it? I seem to recall Yoda in RotS saying the latter.

 

[Smash]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Was it ever said that Qui-Gon was the first one ever to do it, or that he simply learned/found out how to do it? I seem to recall Yoda in RotS saying the latter.

Yeah, it was just that he learned to do it. Something along the lines of "An old friend has learned the path to immortality, your old master"

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I feel like the whole Force Projection thing was pretty specified in the movie if you pay attention. We don't really need a book of rules or something explaining it. Kylo says in the beginning, "You're not doing this, the effort would kill you" to Rey regarding projection. Luke later does this across the galaxy for an extremely long period of time. He's clearly drained and becomes one with the force. Using the power killed him. It's not the first time we've seen anyone strain to use any kind of force power either, so we know the force can take a toll on people regardless... so I'm not sure why that's suddenly an issue in TLJ. Anyway, as far as it making sense, the movie tells you all we need to know. Hell, TLJ explained the force powers they introduced more than many of the other movies explain any of the ones they introduce. I think ANH is really the only one where they give any kind of explanation for powers.

So spot on! Both of the points I put in bold are key. TLJ not only established Force projection on screen, but also established one of the parameters by having Kylo make that statement to Rey. The effort to use the projection would kill her. That keeps it from being a cheap trick that can be used repeatedly. The idea that you can use it multiple times, in short bursts (or whatever), and stay alive has no basis in the film where the ability was established.

And, yes, as you rightly point out, other key Force abilities had been established in previous films without even a hint of explanation. The objections to TLJ's Force projection (which at least was set up with some context earlier in the film) while having no qualms about the ones established in the first two trilogies (without any context in most cases) is baffling to me.

 

[Vortex]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

But back to the first can of worms: very little makes sense about the idea of projection as seen onscreen in TLJ. Consider even the basics: we're told prolonged use of the ability results in the user's death, so you'd think the goal would be to do it for the bare minimum amount of time. Every second that ticks by while you're doing it, could be killing you, right?

So... WHY does Luke stop for a nice chat with Leia? That makes NO SENSE. Think about it - if he didn't stop to chat to her... it would have cut down his force projection time by 1/3 so it's possible he wouldn't have died. So... he wouldn't have had to say goodbye to her.

Jake's entire goal throughout the film was to die and the film never explained to us that he changed his mind. Thus he was a suicidal loon and achieved his goal.

 

[Rudimus]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

The last 4 Clone Wars episodes(up til now) touch on force ghosts & Liam Neeson reprises his role as Qui-Gon to train Yoda. It also has some projection type force use & they specify that in order to communicate with each other via force you had to have a previous force connection.

 

[TaliBane]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

What!?? As of Episode III, a Force ghost is NOT merely the spirit of someone who died "much like ghosts as commonly understood." Several generations of Jedi had died before Qui-Gon, yet he was the first to make contact with the living. You don't think that's a relevant aspect of the Force ghost mythology and its definition? That was the genesis of it, as defined by Lucas himself.

Why are you willfully ignoring what you already know? Qui-Gon kick-started Force ghosts. That means that dead Jedi weren't just manifesting these spiritual personas on their own as a natural consequence of dying. It took one Jedi in particular to figure out the ability and teach it to Kenobi, Yoda, and possibly Anakin. You might not like that ROTS changed previous perceptions, but each chapter in the story is part of the larger saga (like it or not). Asserting now that a Force ghost requires no special understanding/ability of how to harness, generate, and sustain it is laughable given what we've known since Episode III in 2005.

Since you seem to consider Wookieepedia as a good source for defining Force abilities, you should probably read the entry there for what a "Force spirit" is. I'll even save you the time; as here's a quote from the entry:



You can read the whole entry for yourself here: https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_spirit

What I was trying to say to you is that force ghosts as seen in the OT are relatable and deeply felt - we all understand the idea that people we love/admire live on within us, and that the dead may live on in some way we don't understand. It's what makes Ben's "ghost" really deeply powerful to us. It stays with us.

People (and yes, Wookiepedia) go on about some force master from the pre-whatever era who blah-blah-blahed the force ability - it's all just fan gibberish in the bigger picture. The ONLY thing that matters long-term is what speaks to us as human beings. And the point I made is that you may say that force ghost and projection are Jedi "abilities" but what I'm saying is that they are different because the ghost aspect is emotionally/mythically relatable (proven by the OT's enduring power) while the projection thing is an abstract, emotionally unrelatable magician's trick without clear rules that just so happened to kill Luke (the reason TLJ was INCREDIBLY divisive.)

Again, I'm talking about what RESONATES to us as human beings, in our hearts, not some "in-universe" rule about powers that fans can debate.

So from a human experience and emotional perspective, a force ghost works powerfully, but the projection thing is more just a plot device - a "twist" that also happens to kill Luke. It's the reason why nobody was like "huh?! Oh, so Ben's voice is suddenly talking to Luke after he's died?!! And now he's appearing as a ghost to Luke?! wtf?!!" It grew organically from the deeply held idea of a mentor living on after death. Whereas look at the bewilderment and anger that greeted the projection thing from day one.

That second quote actually says that the effort to "create" not "sustain" was too much for Luke, but I'll just concede the point to you because the specifics of what aspect really killed him are pure conjecture, and can be undone in some future film or book (wouldn't be the first time). Either way, nothing changes the fact that both the Force projection and the Force ghost are Jedi abilities that could be used in much the same way to convey messages or distract others. I don't know why you persist in pretending otherwise, but I'm more than happy to keep reminding you that the loopholes and plot criticisms that you've tried to apply to Force projection would have been the case long ago with Force ghosts.

Just concede the point and leave it at that. You said "nothing indicates that Luke only died because of the prolonged use of the projection" and you were wrong.

The following points are proven:

1. The length of the projection is what kills you, so had Luke not stopped to talk to Leia, extending his projection time by maybe 1/3, he could have survived (and therefore wouldn't have had to say goodbye.)

2. With Yoda's ghost's newfound abilities - able to hit/hurt Luke with his cane and also summon lightning and burn physical things - he should have been able to appear as a ghost during Luke's battle with Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ and saved Luke and killed the Emperor.

And the Wookiepedia details support the idea that:

1. Ben could have briefly force-projected to Alderaan right from his hut on Tatooine to tell them about Leia being captured and having the DS plans

2. Yoda could have done a force projection to Bespin to help save Luke in his battle with Vader in the same way Luke appears on Crait

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Just concede the point and leave it at that. You said "nothing indicates that Luke only died because of the prolonged use of the projection" and you were wrong.

The following points are proven:

1. The length of the projection is what kills you, so had Luke not stopped to talk to Leia, extending his projection time by maybe 1/3, he could have survived (and therefore wouldn't have had to say goodbye.)

2. With Yoda's ghost's newfound abilities - able to hit/hurt Luke with his cane and also summon lightning and burn physical things - he should have been able to appear as a ghost during Luke's battle with Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ and saved Luke and killed the Emperor.

And the Wookiepedia details support the idea that:

1. Ben could have briefly force-projected to Alderaan right from his hut on Tatooine to tell them about Leia being captured and having the DS plans

2. Yoda could have done a force projection to Bespin to help save Luke in his battle with Vader in the same way Luke appears on Crait

Amazing. You, more than anyone for the last 20 pages of this thread, have repeatedly pointed out how the only thing that matters is what is shown/explained on screen. Now you want to authoritatively define what kills a Jedi who uses a Force projection by relying on off-screen resources. What is it in the movie that tells us that Luke could have lived had he cut the projection off sooner?

What is your interpretation of Kylo telling Rey that the effort to project herself (totaling less than a single minute at that point) would kill her? How does that context fit your definition that Luke could have survived the Force projection by not stopping to talk to his sister?

And what is it again that would have prevented Kenobi's Force ghost from saving Luke on Bespin in the scenario you describe for Yoda in your last point?

And what foundation are you using to determine how long you can maintain a Force projection to reach across the galaxy to convey a message to Alderaan? Since you've often repeated that only what's given to us on screen actually matters, and I clearly missed that specific clarification every time I've watched TLJ, could you just be kind enough to tell me what it is on screen (not some "fan theory stuff" as you say) that gives you such an authoritative sense for Force projection parameters that would keep the Jedi user living?

 

[Smash]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Just concede the point and leave it at that. You said "nothing indicates that Luke only died because of the prolonged use of the projection" and you were wrong.

The following points are proven:

1. The length of the projection is what kills you, so had Luke not stopped to talk to Leia, extending his projection time by maybe 1/3, he could have survived (and therefore wouldn't have had to say goodbye.)

2. With Yoda's ghost's newfound abilities - able to hit/hurt Luke with his cane and also summon lightning and burn physical things - he should have been able to appear as a ghost during Luke's battle with Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ and saved Luke and killed the Emperor.

And the Wookiepedia details support the idea that:

1. Ben could have briefly force-projected to Alderaan right from his hut on Tatooine to tell them about Leia being captured and having the DS plans

2. Yoda could have done a force projection to Bespin to help save Luke in his battle with Vader in the same way Luke appears on Crait

You're reaching really hard with these.

1. First off... The act of projection is what kills you, not the length. Nowhere is it indicated that it's the length that does it, the only thing that's indicated is that it's the act itself. Even if it had anything to do with duration, we have no idea how long the threshold is. But from the information we have, it's about the act.

2. What if Yoda just learned these abilities while he was a force ghost? Just like how Qui Gon wasn't instantly a force ghost in eps 2-3? It takes them time to learn things as spirits too. If you want to go down this line of thinking of "well why didn't the just do that thing in the past if they can do that!!!" then how come Vader doesn't just look at a picture of who he wants to kill and force choke them through time/space if he can choke people through video? Why doesn't anyone just bring everyone back from the dead if Palpatine knows about the power to stop people from death being an existing thing? Hell, why doesn't Luke just force choke Palpatine if he does it in ROTJ? Why doesn't Vader just do this?

Force powers are never 100% solid with rules and can/cannots the way George and everyone else wrote them. And again, with Yoda he probably had not learned how to do that yet because he literally doesn't even become a ghost until the end of ROTJ.

Your seconds points:

1. He would have died. And he probably didn't know how. From what we know, Luke is the only one who has learned the power of projection. Not sure how this is hard for you to grasp. Why doesn't Maul or Anakin use force lighting? Well, because they hadn't learned the power. It's possible that some characters might learn things others do not. Gasp.

2. Again, no he could not. A. There's nothing to suggest Yoda ever learned that power, again Luke is the only one we know can do it. The only other person that is aware of it is Kylo, who likely only knows of it because of Luke. B. Even if he did, he'd die - and why would Vader care? Luke didn't interact with anything as a projection, hence the word projection. He knew he would emotionally throw off Kylo and be able to stall, that's why he did it. Yoda popping up on Bespin wouldn't be able to do ****, and Vader could care less.

None of that stuff you listed is proven, but rather reached out of wanting to believe the power doesn't make sense lol.

I find it hilarious that some fans keep wanting new stuff in movies, and then when we get a new power you go "WELL WE'VE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE SO IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE"

Like it or not, who gives a ****. But stop listing things as proven and trying to get other people to "concede" just because you don't like them pointing out why the things you're saying are truths are never even mentioned nor suggested.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Talibane..

You need to watch the last 3 episodes of The Clone Wars.

Specifically the last one “Sacrifice”
https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sacrifice

Besides being a great bit of storytelling, bridging the gaps between AOTC and ROTS, its VERY clearly explaining force ghosts and where the power comes from.

I doubt it will change your mind about FP and TLJ concerning Luke, but its very instructive of how Jedi should act with the force.

I also HIGHLY recommend “Rebels” season 3 ....heck all of the show actually, its far from “children’s” show as many suggests. It actually is more dark than much of TPM and AOTC, with better characters and story. It also expands on a ton of stuff that went on in PT , OT and even ST.....

Its worth a watch, especially to see Asoko , Vader, Leia, Lando, Greedo, Obi wan R2 and 3po in stories that accentuate the movies in a great way....




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

There's nothing to suggest Yoda ever learned that power, again Luke is the only one we know can do it. The only other person that is aware of it is Kylo, who likely only knows of it because of Luke.

I think an aspect of TLJ that doesn't register with a lot of people is that Kylo Ren is actually the first character shown to Force project on screen, not Luke. It was Snoke's doing of course but Kylo was a full-on Force projection in Rey's hut, even to the point of making physical contact with her fingers. That's why in my mind Leia really did feel Luke's hand and kiss at the end of the film.

 

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I think an aspect of TLJ that doesn't register with a lot of people is that Kylo Ren is actually the first character shown to Force project on screen, not Luke. It was Snoke's doing of course but Kylo was a full-on Force projection in Rey's hut, even to the point of making physical contact with her fingers. That's why in my mind Leia really did feel Luke's hand and kiss at the end of the film.

I thought that was evident as well, in the moment you reference as well as the water on his glove when he talks to Rey while she's under the Falcon in the rain.

 

[Saintv1]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Great post, Saintv1! So many interesting points that I'd like to touch on; but in the interest of time, there's one thing in particular you mentioned that doesn't get brought up much. It isn't related to Force projections or Force ghosts, but I don't think it gets nearly enough consideration when people are debating why/how Luke turns away from everything and goes into exile.



I agree with your interpretation that Luke spent much of his post-ROTJ days in a peaceful era (and he all but spells that out to Rey when he tells her about the "balance" that existed). And this is part of the reason why Luke would feel so much guilt over what happened to his nephew. Not only did he fail to keep young Ben from being corrupted by the dark side of the Force, but he empowered him -and possibly others (the Knights of Ren) - to become an effective weapon for the dark side. All while the galaxy had finally enjoyed peace again.

By deciding to train a new generation of Jedi, Luke opened the door to the same tragic fate that had been his father's. If this happened amidst ongoing war and conflict, it might not be as devastating. But the fact that there was peace in the galaxy (after hard-fought struggles to earn it) is a key part of what would make Luke feel personally responsible for providing a means for that galactic peace to end. Undoing all that had been repaired and earned at great cost. That's not just simple guilt over something personal that won't have broad-reaching implications; that's guilt over something that will contribute to costing people (entire planets even) their lives.

Training a group of kids to learn Jedi powers and abilities, and have some of them ultimately become weapons who serve evil with those Luke-trained powers and abilities - all in a time when there had been peace - is a heavy responsibility. In this context, I think Luke's exile and desire to bring an end to the Jedi (an end to repeating this same cycle) is a reasonable story plot. Plenty of people object to Luke walking away from everything, and I think often mischaracterize the weight/impact of the responsibility and guilt he would've felt.

It wasn't some simple failure to just "get over" and try to fix. It was realizing that he was allowing the same formula that had torn his family, and helped tear the whole galaxy, apart. It wasn't just about Luke; it was about the whole Jedi concept - about using the Force to empower beings who might ultimately use those powers to serve evil. How would he end that? Not only in the present, but to prevent the repeated cycle in the future? And the fact that there had finally been galactic peace is a key component.

Sorry for sidetracking the Force projection/Force ghost conversation, but the motivation for Luke walking away from everything has been a sticking point for many, and a big reason why some people feel his treatment in TLJ was unjust. I think that particular criticism doesn't get the proper context often enough.

A great point.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I think an aspect of TLJ that doesn't register with a lot of people is that Kylo Ren is actually the first character shown to Force project on screen, not Luke. It was Snoke's doing of course but Kylo was a full-on Force projection in Rey's hut, even to the point of making physical contact with her fingers. That's why in my mind Leia really did feel Luke's hand and kiss at the end of the film.

I don't know if you mean by this that Leia doesn't know that Luke isn't really there. To that point, I would suggest watching the video clip below, starting at the 16:08 mark. The video is a discussion with Leland Chee, Pablo Hidalgo, Matt Martin, and Rayne Roberts from Lucasfilm. They talk about the intangibility of Luke's projection and how Leia knew he wasn't really there. Luke's projection was different than what Snoke was doing to connect Kylo and Rey.

 

[Khev]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I don't know if you mean by this that Leia doesn't know that Luke isn't really there. To that point, I would suggest watching the video clip below, starting at the 16:08 mark. The video is a discussion with Leland Chee, Pablo Hidalgo, Matt Martin, and Rayne Roberts from Lucasfilm. They talk about the intangibility of Luke's projection and how Leia knew he wasn't really there. Luke's projection was different than what Snoke was doing to connect Kylo and Rey.

I know that it's "canon" that Leia knew Luke was a projection but I don't really put a lot of stock in what any member of the Story Group says. To me if they weren't writing the script, directing the shots, or acting in them then they are little more authority on what happened than you or I. And I do know that Rian himself has said that Leia didn't feel his touch and knew he was a projection but my gut tells me that it's a personal retcon that he has made in his mind since filming the scene.

Mark and Carrie's hands clearly touch, you see his fingers press into her skin, and if he was really incorporeal then that was pretty bad scene blocking. Imagine watching The Sixth Sense and noticing that Bruce Willis was obviously touching his wife throughout the film. That would have been a huge cheat and I think it holds true for TLJ as well. If Luke's body couldn't be felt then they shouldn't have had the actors make contact in real life. Plus they already set precedent twice previously by showing Kylo Ren feeling the rain drops and touching Rey's hand which I think ties directly to Luke's contact with Leia.

"Come on Khev are you really going to disagree with the *director* on this one?" Yep! Just like I call BS on Ridley Scott's claims that Deckard was a replicant.

 

[LipSmack]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

^these guys fighting over such a trash movie, my view the movie did nothing to communicate anything well, so anyone can be right, just wait for abrams to fix it all and see where it all settles then.

Guess theres no updates on this figure yet?