How do you rank the Terminator?

[Toni Plutonij]

Well if you recall it was the same in T2, When arnold went to the biker bar, instead of killing all the bikers(like he killed the punks in the first movie)he simply just tossed them around.

There is a difference. In T2 his objective was to protect John Connor, he didn't have to "bother" to kill anybody, they were no threat, only obstacles.
In T Salvation, Terminators should kill on sight, as their mission is to exterminate humanity.

In first movie he asked for clothes, he probably wouldn't kill anybody if he just got what he asked for, but they attacked him. (well he was attacked in T2 as well, so there is a flaw in my explanation, but T2 isn't as dark movie as T1 was)

 

[ronskimomo]

T1
T2
TS
T3

When I was younger I hated T1 and loved T2, but now I can appreciate the story line in T1 much more. The effects in one are not as good, but they still hold up well.
There should be no doubt that T3 was the worst.

 

[Hume77]

I just don't know, headwrecking stuff. I was going to suggest that due to the time paradox John Connor in 2029 already knows exactly what did and is going to transpire, so he knows sending Reese to 1984 is imperative and that they need to have a T-800 on hand to send to 1995 but does this mean that both time incursions are always destined to play out exactly as they do without deviation?

Ah, but that scenario raises yet another problem: if John knows these things in 2029, why didn't he tell Reese to tell Sarah that she could expect another T800 in 1997, and not to scream "no . . .no . . he'll kill us al, he'll kill us all" when she sees him? Would've been good to give Mom the hands-up, so she knows she can trust him.

It seems to me that there's just no way to make this thing work.

 

[Hume77]

Well if you recall it was the same in T2, When arnold went to the biker bar, instead of killing all the bikers(like he killed the punks in the first movie)he simply just tossed them around.

Good point. I guess that's another slip-up for T2. Although, come to think of it, Arnold did throw Ginger's boyfriend Matt around instead of just snapping his neck in T1.

I guess the real problem with the throwing around in TS, as opposed to the throwing around in T1 and T2 - besides the fact that there was way more of it in TS - was that it killed any sense of drama, terror or tension. I mean, if you KNOW that it doesn't matter if the villian gets his hands on the hero, there's no suspense. In T1, when Arnold punches through the winshield and grabs Sarah's shirt, it's actually scary and tense, because we already saw him ram his fist through a guy's torso. When the torso half of the endo is crawling after Sarah, his hands inches away, it's downright scary. We really believe that our heroine will die if he gets his hands on her. It works very well both as action and horror.

But in TS, we see Terminators get their hands on John Connor so many times and fail to do anything deadly to him, that there is no suspense at all. Who cares if they get their hands on him? They're just going to throw him and he's going to get up fine. He'll grunt and groan but nothing life threatening. It simply didn't work, even as an action flick. Even if I put aside all the stupidness and contradictions, and just turn off my brain and treat it as a mindless action flick, it still sucks because it's BORING. There's no suspense, no tension, no drama, no horror. It fails on every level. There's no "don't think about it too much, it's only a movie." Even if I do that, well, okay, it's still a bad action movie because it's BORING.

The only surprise was when, after getting their hands on John for upteenth time, one T800 actually went and finally punched him in the heart. Well, I guess his neural net is a learning computer after all.

But he must've not hit him that hard because, if memory serves, Marcus jump started John's heart with makeshift shock paddles, didn't he?

And wait. If the whole point of luring John into Skynet was to trap him, why wasn't there a garrison of Terminators waiting, plasma rifles in hand, the moment he entered the building? Why didn't a thousand automated laser beams blast him to smithereens the second he was inside? Why wasn't there a trap door leading to a deep pit with spikes at the bottom? Why'd they let him string together the nuclear power cores first, setting up a bomb that could take out the whole place? Because, like Scott Evil, I just don't get it. Skynet is Dr. Evil, that's why.

 

[a-dev]

Why in hell did Skynet allow Marcus free will to choose whether he'd be a goodie or a baddie? Fine, program him to believe he is human, not a bad strategy - until he locates John Connor - then KILL KILL KILL! None of this 'lead him back to homebase' crap.

The other idiotic part of TS was John Connor letting everyone and his aunty know that Kyle Reese is his dad - even the enemy! "You killed my father Kyle Reese, you tried to kill my mother, Sarah Connor, you will not kill me" I think that was the line...which he says to Marcus...who at the time Connor thinks is an evil Terminator. Bit risky no?

I did like some aspects of T4 though, the T-600s were cool and I sorta liked seeing the future in daylight even if it was 2018 and not 2029.

 

[a-dev]

As for the T-800s violence levels in T2 versus T1 - this comes up a lot when comparisons are drawn between the films - T2 T-800 was going to kill one of the jocks till John stopped him just in time. Thus as far as I'm concerned theres nothing to be read into him not killing anyone at the bar - he just didn't. Terminators obviously don't think they need to kill everyone they encounter. Its not as though the T1 T-800 killed everyone he came in contact with - the guy in the phonebox he just shoved away, the cop he just rammed against the car and shoved away, the tech noir bouncer he just crushed his hand. He didn't even kill all the punks at the beginning - only one of them as far as we saw and I've never assumed he killed the guy he took the clothes off else we could just as easily assume T2 killed the "you forgot to say please" biker.

 

[snoop101]

There is a difference. In T2 his objective was to kill John Connor, he didn't have to "bother" to kill others, they were no threat, only obstacles.
In T Salvation, Terminators should kill on sight, as their mission is to exterminate humanity.
In first movie he asked for clothes, he probably wouldn't kill anybody if he just got what he asked for, but they attacked him. (well he was attacked in T2 as well, so there is a flaw in my explanation, but T2 isn't as dark movie as T1 was)

In T2 his mission was to protect John connor.

Good point. I guess that's another slip-up for T2. Although, come to think of it, Arnold did throw Ginger's boyfriend Matt around instead of just snapping his neck in T1.

I guess the real problem with the throwing around in TS, as opposed to the throwing around in T1 and T2 - besides the fact that there was way more of it in TS - was that it killed any sense of drama, terror or tension. I mean, if you KNOW that it doesn't matter if the villian gets his hands on the hero, there's no suspense. In T1, when Arnold punches through the winshield and grabs Sarah's shirt, it's actually scary and tense, because we already saw him ram his fist through a guy's torso. When the torso half of the endo is crawling after Sarah, his hands inches away, it's downright scary. We really believe that our heroine will die if he gets his hands on her. It works very well both as action and horror.

But in TS, we see Terminators get their hands on John Connor so many times and fail to do anything deadly to him, that there is no suspense at all. Who cares if they get their hands on him? They're just going to throw him and he's going to get up fine. He'll grunt and groan but nothing life threatening. It simply didn't work, even as an action flick. Even if I put aside all the stupidness and contradictions, and just turn off my brain and treat it as a mindless action flick, it still sucks because it's BORING. There's no suspense, no tension, no drama, no horror. It fails on every level. There's no "don't think about it too much, it's only a movie." Even if I do that, well, okay, it's still a bad action movie because it's BORING.

The only surprise was when, after getting their hands on John for upteenth time, one T800 actually went and finally punched him in the heart. Well, I guess his neural net is a learning computer after all.

But he must've not hit him that hard because, if memory serves, Marcus jump started John's heart with makeshift shock paddles, didn't he?

And wait. If the whole point of luring John into Skynet was to trap him, why wasn't there a garrison of Terminators waiting, plasma rifles in hand, the moment he entered the building? Why didn't a thousand automated laser beams blast him to smithereens the second he was inside? Why wasn't there a trap door leading to a deep pit with spikes at the bottom? Why'd they let him string together the nuclear power cores first, setting up a bomb that could take out the whole place? Because, like Scott Evil, I just don't get it. Skynet is Dr. Evil, that's why.

Im sorry but I dont see how anyone could say that T:S was boring, even if you hated it,it is in know way boring whatsoever. Theres an epic action scene just about every five minutes. Also it was the other way around John jump started marcus's heart.

 

[snoop101]

Why in hell did Skynet allow Marcus free will to choose whether he'd be a goodie or a baddie? Fine, program him to believe he is human, not a bad strategy - until he locates John Connor - then KILL KILL KILL! None of this 'lead him back to homebase' crap.

The other idiotic part of TS was John Connor letting everyone and his aunty know that Kyle Reese is his dad - even the enemy! "You killed my father Kyle Reese, you tried to kill my mother, Sarah Connor, you will not kill me" I think that was the line...which he says to Marcus...who at the time Connor thinks is an evil Terminator. Bit risky no?

I did like some aspects of T4 though, the T-600s were cool and I sorta liked seeing the future in daylight even if it was 2018 and not 2029.

What would it matter? In the beginning of the movie, one of the generals tells John that he is the second on the skynet "hit list" and Kyle Reese is the first. So Skynet already knows.

 

[Hume77]

In T2 his mission was to protect John connor.



Im sorry but I dont see how anyone could say that T:S was boring, even if you hated it,it is in know way boring whatsoever. Theres an epic action scene just about every five minutes. Also it was the other way around John jump started marcus's heart.

OK, my mistake. Who was it that got their heart smashed by an endo-fist? I can't even remember now. I think I may have been asleep by that point.

I gave my reasons why I found it boring. I have to feel as though the villian represents a true threat to the hero. I didn't get that here.

I don't agree about an epic action scene every five minutes. I think maybe I'm just getting old. It seems as though the more explosions a movie has these days, the less interesting I find it.

 

[Hume77]

As for the T-800s violence levels in T2 versus T1 - this comes up a lot when comparisons are drawn between the films - T2 T-800 was going to kill one of the jocks till John stopped him just in time. Thus as far as I'm concerned theres nothing to be read into him not killing anyone at the bar - he just didn't. Terminators obviously don't think they need to kill everyone they encounter. Its not as though the T1 T-800 killed everyone he came in contact with - the guy in the phonebox he just shoved away, the cop he just rammed against the car and shoved away, the tech noir bouncer he just crushed his hand. He didn't even kill all the punks at the beginning - only one of them as far as we saw and I've never assumed he killed the guy he took the clothes off else we could just as easily assume T2 killed the "you forgot to say please" biker.

That cop was also at the mall taking pictures of the T800 after the T1000 threw him through a glass window in T2. Remember? Same actor.

 

[snoop101]

OK, my mistake. Who was it that got their heart smashed by an endo-fist? I can't even remember now. I think I may have been asleep by that point.

I gave my reasons why I found it boring. I have to feel as though the villian represents a true threat to the hero. I didn't get that here.

I don't agree about an epic action scene every five minutes. I think maybe I'm just getting old. It seems as though the more explosions a movie has these days, the less interesting I find it.

It was Marcus. The only thing I think that couldve made it much better IMO besides choosing Mcg as a director, would be to have more character development.

 

[a-dev]

What would it matter? In the beginning of the movie, one of the generals tells John that he is the second on the skynet "hit list" and Kyle Reese is the first. So Skynet already knows.

Good point. But that just highlights yet another hole - why didn't Skynet just kill Reese? Plus, how does Skynet know in the first place?

I think it would have been far better and more dramatic if John and only John knew that Kyle Reese is his dad, Skynet doesn't know, and he tells no one.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

In T2 his mission was to protect John connor.

Yeah, that's what I meant to write, don't know how I came up with the wrong word, must have been thinking about something else as I was typing.

 

[snoop101]

Good point. But that just highlights yet another hole - why didn't Skynet just kill Reese? Plus, how does Skynet know in the first place?

I think it would have been far better and more dramatic if John and only John knew that Kyle Reese is his dad, Skynet doesn't know, and he tells no one.

I agree. I think skynet knows who Reese is because he successfully made it back to 1984. And there was recorded tapes of him when he was being interrogated by the police. So maybe skynet had access to these tapes. IDK really, just a theory.

 

[snoop101]

Yeah, that's what I meant to write, don't know how I came up with the wrong word, must have been thinking about something else as I was typing.

Its all good, you just had me confused for a second

 

[Hex]

Why didn't Skynet just send back a Terminator to infiltrate one of the nuclear weapons equipped military bases and destroy LA?

 

[DiFabio]

However, that's just a little too cute, isn't it? They brought their captured and reprogrammed T800 with them into Skynet's base when they "smashed their defense grid"? They must have, because they didn't have time to go back to base and get him. That would take awhile, and while they were doing that the machines could have been sending Terminator after Terminator back in time.

I'll tell you what's cute, time traveling in general in the Terminator universe.

Forget T3 and Salvation for a second, they suck. But how about Terminator and T2? How exactly does time travel work?

It doesn't.

WARNING: MAY NOT LOOK AT FILMS THE SAME WAY AGAIN

Okay, we all know the story. Skynet sends the T-800 back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor. Then John Connor sends Reese back to save Sarah and himself.

So wait. Skynet obviously sends back the T-800 FIRST right (you see where I'm going)? So how does sending Kyle back AFTER save Connor?

If you're thinking that, "oh Kyle just goes to a time before or around the T-800 arrives" well, that doesn't make sense. Skynet sending the T-800 back would INSTANTLY make John Connor toast. I doubt it's like Back to the Future where you fade away or some ____ like that and if that is the case, skynet has the advantage, he changes things FIRST.

It would be instant death. Skynet sends back the Terminator, BOOM things change. Kyle went in after it, doesn't make sense.

Now add T2 to the mix. Skynet sends back the T-800 and T-1000 to eliminate the Connors. So then John and Co. after seeing the time travel logs or whatever decide to send Reese back AND go into the vault to reprogram a T-800 AND send it back? That's going to take some time AND DURING that time THE T-800 AND T-1000 ARE ALREADY BACK IN TIME.

So that means, the timeline in which the General John Connor wins is secure and whatever happens outside that timeline, doesn't matter which makes the story irrelevant. Skynet can win in another universe and it will have no bearing or consequences to THIS current John and Resistance that won the war. So why bother sending anyone back to protect alternate versions of yourself since it doesn't matter (and if it does matter, again, SKYNET would win instantly since it sent them back FIRST)?

DILEMMA?

Nah, they're just movies, and damn good ones at that (well, just the first two obviously). But it's ALL "cute" Hume.

 

[snoop101]

I'll tell you what's cute, time traveling in general in the Terminator universe.

Forget T3 and Salvation for a second, they suck. But how about Terminator and T2? How exactly does time travel work?

It doesn't.

WARNING: MAY NOT LOOK AT FILMS THE SAME WAY AGAIN

Okay, we all know the story. Skynet sends the T-800 back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor. Then John Connor sends Reese back to save Sarah and himself.

So wait. Skynet obviously sends back the T-800 FIRST right (you see where I'm going)? So how does sending Kyle back AFTER save Connor?

If you're thinking that, "oh Kyle just goes to a time before or around the T-800 arrives" well, that doesn't make sense. Skynet sending the T-800 back would INSTANTLY make John Connor toast. I doubt it's like Back to the Future where you fade away or some ____ like that and if that is the case, skynet has the advantage, he changes things FIRST.

It would be instant death. Skynet sends back the Terminator, BOOM things change. Kyle went in after it, doesn't make sense.

Now add T2 to the mix. Skynet sends back the T-800 and T-1000 to eliminate the Connors. So then John and Co. after seeing the time travel logs or whatever decide to send Reese back AND go into the vault to reprogram a T-800 AND send it back? That's going to take some time AND DURING that time THE T-800 AND T-1000 ARE ALREADY BACK IN TIME.

So that means, the timeline in which the General John Connor wins is secure and whatever happens outside that timeline, doesn't matter which makes the story irrelevant. Skynet can win in another universe and it will have no bearing or consequences to THIS current John and Resistance that won the war. So why bother sending anyone back to protect alternate versions of yourself since it doesn't matter (and if it does matter, again, SKYNET would win instantly since it sent them back FIRST)?

DILEMMA?

Nah, they're just movies, and damn good ones at that (well, just the first two obviously). But it's ALL "cute" Hume.

I dont understand your logic.

 

[Hume77]

I'll tell you what's cute, time traveling in general in the Terminator universe.

Forget T3 and Salvation for a second, they suck. But how about Terminator and T2? How exactly does time travel work?

It doesn't.

WARNING: MAY NOT LOOK AT FILMS THE SAME WAY AGAIN

Okay, we all know the story. Skynet sends the T-800 back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor. Then John Connor sends Reese back to save Sarah and himself.

So wait. Skynet obviously sends back the T-800 FIRST right (you see where I'm going)? So how does sending Kyle back AFTER save Connor?

If you're thinking that, "oh Kyle just goes to a time before or around the T-800 arrives" well, that doesn't make sense. Skynet sending the T-800 back would INSTANTLY make John Connor toast. I doubt it's like Back to the Future where you fade away or some ____ like that and if that is the case. Skynet has the advantage, he changes things FIRST.

It would be instant death. Skynet sends back the Terminator, BOOM things change. Kyle went in after it, doesn't make sense.

Now add T2 to the mix. Skynet sends back the T-800 and T-1000 to eliminate the Connors. So then John and Co. after seeing the time travel logs or whatever decide to send Reese back AND go into the vault to reprogram a T-800 AND send it back? That's going to take some time AND DURING that time THE T-800 AND T-1000 ARE ALREADY BACK IN TIME.

So that means, the timeline in which the General John Connor wins is secure and whatever happens outside that timeline, doesn't matter. Skynet can win in another universe and it will have no bearing or consequences to THIS current John and Resistance that won the war. So why bother sending anyone back to protect alternate versions of yourself since it doesn't matter (and if it does matter, again, SKYNET would win instantly since it sent them back FIRST)?

DILEMMA?

Nah, they're just movies, and damn good ones at that (well, just the first two obviously). But it's ALL "cute" Hume.

This is all true but as I said in an earlier post, the very premise of the first movie is ridiculous. It's ridiculous because time travel itself raises the sort of logical problems that you just raised.

HOWEVER, I can suspend my disbelief for an absurd premise as long as the film doesn't ask me to suspend my disbelief again and again. I'm fine with an absurd premise IF the rest of the story remains internally consistent. (Think of how many great stories I'd be missing out on if I didn't.) My problem is with stories that violate their own internal logic. I don't question how they can time travel, and I don't question why nothing dead will go.

But if suddenly something dead CAN go and there is no explanation as to why the rule has suddenly changed - especially when that rule was only in place to secure a necessary story element i.e. that they not have ray guns that would have stopped a Terminator in seconds and therefore made a very short movie - well . . . that's just bad storytelling.

So: absurd premise OK if good storytelling thereafter; but a lot of internal consistencies is bad storytelling. IMO.

 

[DiFabio]

T-1000 takes a human form and Skynet equips it with the same cloned flesh that the T-800 sports.

T-1000 goes through with living skin and viola, T-1000 in 1995. During the chaos or maybe RIGHT after shape shifting the flesh is gone.

There you go.