How do you rank the Terminator?

[a-dev]

Same materials and components, I'm sure the T-800 would have been able to rework it into a lefty.

 

[Hume77]

Why bother though? What is the advantage of using future guns that aren't of that time? How is he going to fit a future plasma rifle in him or carry it around?

Well one advantage is that he is immediately armed once he gets to 1984 and can go right to killing Sarah Connor.

If he can walk around with concealed shotguns and machine guns, he can find a way to conceal a plasma rifle. Anyway, concealment didn't seem to be an issue for him. At one point, he's walking through the hallway with the guns in plain view.

I'm still finding the notion that the T1000 can be covered with living tissue, but guns can't be, troublesome. I understand that guns aren't the same size and shape as Arnold, but then neither is the T1000, really. They are similar shapes because they are both humanoid, but I don't see why you can't pile a bunch of guns into an empty shell of humanoid shaped metal and then put flesh on it.

BTW, I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am. This whole debate is good fun.

 

[Hume77]

I always wondered why he didn't repair himself and continue protecting John, too. I guess James wanted a bit of a tear jerker at the end, though.

I always thought it had to do with the re-setting of his switch so that he could learn new things that he hadn't been programmed with ("and not be such a dork all the time").

He was programmed to protect John, and in the beginning, that directive was executed narrowly and literally, as any machine would do.

When his neural net learning computer was taken off of "read only" he began to think and learn for himself. Remember, Dyson said that his supercomputers had the capacity to "think like we do" and learn like we do in a deleted scene. (But Skynet sets the switch to read only when they go out into the field, because it doesn't "want them to do too much thinking.")

Throughout this learning process, John was lecturing him about the value of human life.

So as the T800 learned to think independently, he remained true to his original directive and programming to protect John, but figured out how to execute this programming more creatively and broadly . . . he learned that to protect John in a broader sense, a less literal but more meaningful sense, he had to prevent the war from happening at all. That would do more to protect John, broadly speaking, that anything else he could do. Also, he learned that protecting John meant not only saving John's life, but protecting the things that John values and holds dear, such as human life.

Hence, as Sarah said, "a machine, a Terminator, learned the value of human life."

 

[a-dev]

I'll tell you what's cute, time traveling in general in the Terminator universe.

Forget T3 and Salvation for a second, they suck. But how about Terminator and T2? How exactly does time travel work?

It doesn't.

WARNING: MAY NOT LOOK AT FILMS THE SAME WAY AGAIN

Okay, we all know the story. Skynet sends the T-800 back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor. Then John Connor sends Reese back to save Sarah and himself.

So wait. Skynet obviously sends back the T-800 FIRST right (you see where I'm going)? So how does sending Kyle back AFTER save Connor?

If you're thinking that, "oh Kyle just goes to a time before or around the T-800 arrives" well, that doesn't make sense. Skynet sending the T-800 back would INSTANTLY make John Connor toast. I doubt it's like Back to the Future where you fade away or some ____ like that and if that is the case, skynet has the advantage, he changes things FIRST.

It would be instant death. Skynet sends back the Terminator, BOOM things change. Kyle went in after it, doesn't make sense.

Now add T2 to the mix. Skynet sends back the T-800 and T-1000 to eliminate the Connors. So then John and Co. after seeing the time travel logs or whatever decide to send Reese back AND go into the vault to reprogram a T-800 AND send it back? That's going to take some time AND DURING that time THE T-800 AND T-1000 ARE ALREADY BACK IN TIME.

So that means, the timeline in which the General John Connor wins is secure and whatever happens outside that timeline, doesn't matter which makes the story irrelevant. Skynet can win in another universe and it will have no bearing or consequences to THIS current John and Resistance that won the war. So why bother sending anyone back to protect alternate versions of yourself since it doesn't matter (and if it does matter, again, SKYNET would win instantly since it sent them back FIRST)?

DILEMMA?

Nah, they're just movies, and damn good ones at that (well, just the first two obviously). But it's ALL "cute" Hume.

https://sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57531&page=54

Check out page 54 onwards, we had loads of fun but mindbending discussion about this stuff!

Silent Surfer had a few cool ideas like how the T1 T-800 was not in fact Skynets first attempt to change the past, that actually the T-1000 was, followed by the TX and only after these had failed did they attempt to stop John Connor from ever having been born by sending a T-800 to 1984.

 

[DiFabio]

I just read it all. Some ____ doesn't make sense.

 

[Reaktwon]

Yeah, some of it doesn't seem right. But it's all possible if you imagine things that way.

 

[EVILFACE]

I just read it all. Some ____ doesn't make sense.

Even from the start the T1 Terminator failed because it was sent back in time. If it killed Sarah there would be no need to send it back in time to begin with.

The only way it works is if sending the T1 back creates a alternate timeline ala Back to the Future II.

 

[DiFabio]

True.

____ing going back in time. Someone needs to go in the DC section, NOW and educate Maglor in the Terminator universe.

 

[a-dev]

Silent surfers main refutation of Difabio's and my point about 'instantaneous death' for John Connor once Skynet got a machine back to 1984 was that the only thing that matters is what happens at the earliest point in time...thus 1984. And in 1984 there was Reese and the T-800 where the former was successful. I thought I understood and bought it at the time but obviously I didn't because I still find myself puzzling over it.

 

[DiFabio]

Yeah, because it doesn't make sense.

Silentsurfers said something like the Resistance could wait a few months or even a year before attempting to stop the T-800/Skynet.

A month? A year? How about never? I don't see how Skynet sending a Terminator back in time to kill Sarah Connor would even matter to the original adult John Connor. It wouldn't unless he somehow sent Kyle at the same time as the T-800 (example, Kyle runs after the T-800 in the time displacement field).

But nope, Kyle goes in after, under Connor's supervision and orders. Which means when the T-800 went through (while Kyle was preparing or whatever) Connor was fine.

 

[Macularius]

Well one advantage is that he is immediately armed once he gets to 1984 and can go right to killing Sarah Connor.

If he can walk around with concealed shotguns and machine guns, he can find a way to conceal a plasma rifle. Anyway, concealment didn't seem to be an issue for him. At one point, he's walking through the hallway with the guns in plain view.

I'm still finding the notion that the T1000 can be covered with living tissue, but guns can't be, troublesome. I understand that guns aren't the same size and shape as Arnold, but then neither is the T1000, really. They are similar shapes because they are both humanoid, but I don't see why you can't pile a bunch of guns into an empty shell of humanoid shaped metal and then put flesh on it.

BTW, I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am. This whole debate is good fun.

You would probably have trouble getting the sack of guns and the terminator to appear in the same place at exactly the same time.

 

[Macularius]

Yeah, because it doesn't make sense.

Silentsurfers said something like the Resistance could wait a few months or even a year before attempting to stop the T-800/Skynet.

A month? A year? How about never? I don't see how Skynet sending a Terminator back in time to kill Sarah Connor would even matter to the original adult John Connor. It wouldn't unless he somehow sent Kyle at the same time as the T-800 (example, Kyle runs after the T-800 in the time displacement field).

But nope, Kyle goes in after, under Connor's supervision and orders. Which means when the T-800 went through (while Kyle was preparing or whatever) Connor was fine.

They could wait one hundred years; as long as they send somebody back before the T-800 got to sarah all's good.

 

[DiFabio]

Okay, I'm John Connor.

Skynet just sent a killer Cyborg to kill my mother in the year 1984.

I'm still here. Nothing has changed, I'm fine. I'm talking to my men and still exist while Skynet on the other hand is a smoldering waste.

Why would I need to send someone back to protect me if I still exist and my enemy is destroyed? ESPECIALLY if it's been years since the defeat of Skynet and the departure of the T-800?

 

[Hume77]

Three different timelines?

First timeline, John is fine, talking to his men and still existing while Skynet is a smoldering waste.

Second timeline. the T800 killed John Connor because he went through first. When he went back in time and killed Connor, this set up the parallel universe.

But over in the first timeline, the first universe, John Connor is still alive and well and Skynet is beaten. That John Connor sends back Kyle Reese . . .

. . . creating a third timeline where Kyle Reese defeats the T800 (and James Cameron catches it on film). This timeline splits off from the second timeline.

Plausible (within the realm of science fiction, at least)? I'm not sure myself, and I haven't read the other thread.

 

[Hume77]

No, wait, on second thought, how would the John Connor in the first timeline manage to get Kyle Reese into the past of the second timeline? You're right, it makes no sense, unless you can skip over to different timelines. Can you?

 

[a-dev]

The problem is if changing the past does not affect the timeline that you exist in, but just creates a different timeline which you don't get to experience...whats the point? Thus, unless Skynet does not realise that this is the outcome of changing the past, what does it think it has to gain from the time travel strategy?

 

[Unclechopchop]

T2
T1
The rest don't count because something that sucks that bad shouldn't even be considered

 

[DiFabio]

The problem is if changing the past does not affect the timeline that you exist in, but just creates a different timeline which you don't get to experience...whats the point? Thus, unless Skynet does not realise that this is the outcome of changing the past, what does it think it has to gain from the time travel strategy?

Yep exactly.

Best way to sum up time travel in the Terminator films is,

"It messes with your head."

 

[a-dev]

They could wait one hundred years; as long as they send somebody back before the T-800 got to sarah all's good.

1) Alls good except from Skynet's point of view - the whole operation is an utter waste of time. Sending a Terminator to kill Sarah connor in 1984 has clearly made no difference whatsover. John connor remains alive, a month later, a hundred years later, to send Kyle Reese through the time portal after-the-fact and the resistance still wins. Wow, ___k load of use that was, says Skynet.

The whole thing has to work on a single linear basis or else why would either party bother with time travel at all?
The only way it can work on this basis is if Reese - not the T-800 - goes through first, and in his role as merely 'protector' he does nothing to change the course of events. He simply awaits the T-800's arrival and thats when the action starts.

2) If it is linear time how can all be good since in 2029, 1984 and everything that takes place in that year, was 45 years ago? When the T-800 arrived in 1984 it, and all of its actions, became part of the past while the actions of the human resistance wouldn't happen until 2029 and, as a result of the T-800 in 1984, couldn't happen at all.


Not trying to ruin the film or anything, I'm just having good clean drunk fun

 

[Hume77]

The problem is if changing the past does not affect the timeline that you exist in, but just creates a different timeline which you don't get to experience...whats the point? Thus, unless Skynet does not realise that this is the outcome of changing the past, what does it think it has to gain from the time travel strategy?

The same thing Biff Tannen sought to gain when he gave his younger self that Sports Almanac.

How about they do a story where Skynet builds a machine to crossover from one timeline to another? They could explain to us that that was Skynet's ultimate goal (in dabbling with time travel) all along - to create a timeline where other defeated Skynets could go after losing. That would be a lot better than TS and it would add some logic to the story.

Hell they could make Skynet into an extra dimensional being such that the same Skynet experiences all timelines simultaneously. Or Skynet could create devices to turn itself into such an extradimensional being, and the human resistance has to stop it before Skynet succeeds because if Skynet wins in one timeline, it wins in all of them. The writers could pass it off as having always been Skynet's ultimate goal in creating time machines in the first place.

If they're going to create movies out of fan fiction like they did with TS, they may as well do something interesting premise-wise.