How do you rank the Terminator?

[Hume77]

Yeah, but you're forgetting, they're from the future so it WOULD be an instant loss, to them.

But how would it be any loss, instant or otherwise, if the T800 never finds her? Mind you, I still think he WOULD have found her even without Reese's intervention, but you did put forth the theory that he NEVER would have found her without Reese.

So . . . under the "No Reese, no findy Sarah Connor" theory, they send the T800 before Reese, the T800 fails to find Sarah, and the resistance doesn't lose, instantly or otherwise. Then they send Reese, so the T800 finds her, but still he fails as the events of the film unfold.

Mind you, I don't really believe the theory, because I think the T800 would have found her anyway, eventually. It's what he does. It's all he does. You can't stop him. He'll wade through you, and . . .

 

[a-dev]

Nice quoting!

Yeah, he would have found her since she wouldn't have known to 'stay off the grid'. However if Reese didn't come through he wouldn't have to worry anyway since John Connor wouldn't be born. If only Skynet knew that killing Kyle Reese would have been just as effective as killing Sarah! Thats whats ridiculously stupid about T4 - Skynet does know about Reese....and lets him live.

 

[Hume77]

But he did find Sarah without Reese's intervention - she just wasn't home. Even if Sarah hadn't rang home to say she was at Tech Noir, T-800 would likely have gone through their stuff to find a photograph confirming that Ginger was not Sarah and then just waited for the real Sarah to come home.

Right. I said that at the end of post #411. It's why I don't really believe the no-Reese/no find Sarah Connor theory. However, if that theory did hold, it's a way around the problem that DiFabio put forward.

DiFabio's problem - which I agree IS a problem, and it's a very astute observation - is that once you send a Terminator back in time, the gig is up. The resistance can't send a protector back soon enough. The resistance would have had to send the protector FIRST for him to do any good. There's no such thing as "well, the resistance sent a protector back in time before the Terminator was able to find Sarah." The resistance can't do anything before the Terminator does because the resistance is in the future and the Terminator is in the past.

But that theory necessarily assumes that, absent any help from a protector, the Terminator WILL find and kill Sarah Connor. And that assumption, given how relentless a Terminator is, and how difficult they are to defeat even with a protector, is a safe assumption IMO.

However, DiFabio turns this assumption on its head by suggesting that the T800 never would have found Sarah if Reese hadn't come along.

 

[Hume77]

Nice quoting!

Yeah, he would have found her since she wouldn't have known to 'stay off the grid'. However if Reese didn't come through he wouldn't have to worry anyway since John Connor wouldn't be born.

Insert face palm by Hume77. You're right. Completely forgot about that.

 

[DiFabio]

No, no Hume I said "perhaps". I'm just playing devil's advocate. Yes, Sarah would most likely die but since there isn't a story about it who knows?

What if she came across other resources? She may or may not have been that helpless without Reese. She was, after all a warrior without the guidance of Reese in one possible 1984. Maybe being hunted by an unknown assassin (the T-800) would make her lose it and become this military psycho.

I'm just saying, that's all. One thing I think we can all agree on is that, had Reese not gone through time and Sarah was indeed terminated by the T-800, it would have not been at Tech Noir.

Mind you, I don't really believe the theory, because I think the T800 would have found her anyway, eventually. It's what he does. It's all he does. You can't stop him. He'll wade through you, and . . .

. . . get crushed by a hydraulic press at the hands of Sarah Connor.

 

[a-dev]

I think we're all preaching to the converted here. Basically its all a bit confusing and there are holes but the films are great fun as they are....except for T3 and T4.

 

[DiFabio]

I still think the films (Terminator and T2) are perfect with holes. I can suspend my disbelief even if it doesn't make sense. Just don't tell me that it ALL makes sense.

 

[Macularius]

1) Alls good except from Skynet's point of view - the whole operation is an utter waste of time. Sending a Terminator to kill Sarah connor in 1984 has clearly made no difference whatsover. John connor remains alive, a month later, a hundred years later, to send Kyle Reese through the time portal after-the-fact and the resistance still wins. Wow, ___k load of use that was, says Skynet.

The whole thing has to work on a single linear basis or else why would either party bother with time travel at all?
The only way it can work on this basis is if Reese - not the T-800 - goes through first, and in his role as merely 'protector' he does nothing to change the course of events. He simply awaits the T-800's arrival and thats when the action starts.

2) If it is linear time how can all be good since in 2029, 1984 and everything that takes place in that year, was 45 years ago? When the T-800 arrived in 1984 it, and all of its actions, became part of the past while the actions of the human resistance wouldn't happen until 2029 and, as a result of the T-800 in 1984, couldn't happen at all.


Not trying to ruin the film or anything, I'm just having good clean drunk fun

I'm sorry, but, none of that is really making sense. As long as reese gets there in time before the terminator does, it doesn't matter who gets sent through first.

 

[Hume77]

No, no Hume I said "perhaps". I'm just playing devil's advocate. Yes, Sarah would most likely die but since there isn't a story about it who knows?

What if she came across other resources? She may or may not have been that helpless without Reese. She was, after all a warrior without the guidance of Reese

You're talking about things she hasn't done yet in the past tense. It's driving me crazy.

Look, she didn't ask for this "honor" and she doesn't want it. Any of it!
*pouts*

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

I like T2 more than the others

 

[sky_captain]

T2 was a pivotal movie for me, growing up. I was 12 when it came out. Grew up on a lot of Arnie movies and action movies in general, but T2 was always special to me.

The first Terminator just doesn't have the same love in my heart, hence why I'm not buying any new HT figures released from it.*

*I say that, even owning John Connor V1 and Marcus Wright from Salvation.

 

[a-dev]

I'm sorry, but, none of that is really making sense. As long as reese gets there in time before the terminator does, it doesn't matter who gets sent through first.

I was drunk when I wrote that so that particular post may not make much sense but the point Difabio and I are making very much does.

The fundamental problem is if it doesn't matter when the resistance sends Kyle Reese back through time...if it doesn't matter how long they dilly dally about after the T-800 has already gone through...what has Skynet achieved? Sending a Terminator back to kill Sarah Connor has obviously not done a damn thing to change 2029 since John Connor is still there, ready to send Kyle Reese through. Skynet's plan is completely pointless if the resistance not only has the ability to respond but seemingly can do so at their own leisure, whenever they feel like it.

 

[sky_captain]

Skynet doesn't seem smart enough to realize what a 'paradox' is.

Super-computer, my butt!

 

[a-dev]

At the very least time travel doesn't seem to work like Skynet expects or hopes it to.

 

[Hex]

Why not travel back and get Sarah when she was a child then.

 

[a-dev]

Apparently Skynet didn't have enough information about Sarah because 'a lot of stuff got lost in the war', it only knew the city she lived in as of 1984. It had to rely on the T-800s detective work to find and kill any Sarah Connor it could and hope one of them was the Sarah Connor. So killing her as a child wasn't an option or probably anyone else further back on the family tree.

 

[Russell1982]

This whole discussion of time travel in the terminator films is both hurting my brain and fascinating me. I'd never really thought too much about it before, at least not in this much depth. But i just had to mention something, some of the theories are reminding me of bill and teds' excellent adventure, believe it or not. Just where they say "i'll have to remember to go back in time and leave the keys here" then he reaches over and picks them up. Showing that as soon as you go back in time to do something it happens, if that makes sense. So as soon as skynet sent back the t 800 sarah connor would be dead to them (assuming it succeeded). This actually made sense in my head but when i started typing, i became confused again. Arghhh.

PS The first film is my favourite by far, T2 is the one i fell in love with as a kid but as i got older i leaned more toward the first one. Just love the darker, more thriller/horror type aspect as opposed to the big action block buster feel to the second. Still great though. I have no interest in 3 or 4 as they were both huuuge let downs.

 

[Warden]

T1 is a great film, but T2 is one of the greatest of all time in any genre.

It is right at the top of the tree in both Sci-fi and Action movies.

 

[Fason]

T2 is a great film, but T1 is one of the greatest of all time in any genre.

It is right at the top of the tree in both Sci-fi and Action movies.

There

 

[Reaktwon]

Why not travel back and get Sarah when she was a child then.

Hahaha! That's funny and true.