INCEPTION Discussion Thread (***Spoilers!!!***)

[Maglor]

The entire Mombasa sequence--with the agents chasing Cobb around, the buildings closing in on him as he tries to escape, and Saito miraculously waiting for him on the other side--all feels like a dream to me. It's subtle but it feels like enough of a heightened reality that there are people who interpret it as being dream level one.

There is nothing indisputable about that. Again, from the Dileep Rao interview:

I felt a very dreamlike feeling when Cobb is being chased by the Cobol guys and Ken Watanabe shows up to save him. I mean, squeezing through the wall when they're coming for him, I've had so many nightmares like that.
Archetypes. We all dream in certain ways. Teeth falling out, being chased ... and that stuff is poignant. But the more you explore it, the more you realize that Chris has already thought about it. I think there is a definitive answer, but it's hidden so you have to take time to think about it. But I do think it's real because it's an apostatic act on art itself to suddenly say "Well, none of this happened, and I have no explanation."

Now combine that with Mal's point of view and her leap of faith, and you have plenty of clues within the film that suggest to us that the reality presented to the audience is not reality at all... To say that such an interpretation is too philosophical and that you are "no longer having a discussion about the movie" ignores pretty much every scene with Mal, and a great deal of her dialogue.

The movie presents Mal as crazy. To assume otherwise is without real basis. I can't even argue against it, because the movie speaks for itself on the subject.

I would disagree with the actor's position that there is nothing within the film itself that suggests that "reality" is all a dream. We have one of the characters saying that exact thing!

What character says that? (Not saying no one does, I just don't remember who.)

...you have plenty of clues within the film that suggest to us that the reality presented to the audience is not reality at all.

Any other than the ones you mentioned?

I think that Nolan carefully crafted the film to work with multiple interpretations...

Despite all my bluster, I totally agree with this.

That said, I do believe that he (Noland) knows which interpretation is right.

Right now, I like the idea of Cobb needing to learn to have faith, and let go of his doubts about what is real. In the process, I believe he lets go of his addiction to the dream world. He spins the top and walks away because he has found faith in the real, and he walks into a life of real fulfillment.

 

[tomandshell]

What character says that? (Not saying no one does, I just don't remember who.)

Mal tries to convince Cobb of this before she kills herself. She believes that they are still in a dream and that they need to die in order to wake up and be reunited with their children.

It's probably safe to assume that she was wrong and crazy. But what if she was right? It's an idea explicitly put forward in the film, and although most of the audience disagrees with it, it's interesting to wonder "what if" she wasn't crazy after all.

Of course, if Cobb is dreaming the whole time then the version of Mal that we are allowed to see isn't accurate (and he says this to her face in their final scene together). The audience is shown a crazy version of her because his subconscious wants to reject her ideas and so creates a projection of her that is mad. We, the audience, side with Cobb because he is the hero, but we are seeing Mal through his mind's eye--and that presentation of her is certainly subjective and warped. But that's the only version of her the audience is allowed to see, and so naturally we turn against it. If the entire film is a dream, then there is a reason why Mal seems so crazy--because Cobb's mind is resisting the truth of her ideas and actions.

Now, I'm not convinced that this the correct interpretation of the film. (I don't think that Nolan even wants one single strictly correct interpretation, or he would have made the film differently.) But I do think that it is interesting to contemplate, and I think that pretty much every scene with Mal in it can cause us to think about the nature of reality in this film.

 

[Wake]

Mal tries to convince Cobb of this before she kills herself. She believes that they are still in a dream and that they need to die in order to wake up and be reunited with their children.

It's probably safe to assume that she was wrong and crazy. But what if she was right? It's an idea explicitly put forward in the film, and although most of the audience disagrees with it, it's interesting to wonder "what if" she wasn't crazy after all.

There is a simple and irrefutable piece of logic that speaks to fact that the majority of the film's time in 'the real world' is NOT A DREAM. If we say that Mal escaped the unreal dream world by killing herself in order to be with her children... why doesnt she just shut off the dream-sharing machine or drop the still dreaming Cobb into a bathtub to wake him from his dream to prove to him that they were dreaming? In fact, you can argue that there's no point to her asking him to jump with her, becuz if what she believed was true she could simply turn around and induce Cobb's Kick.

Moreover the spinning top FALLS several times during the movie. So THIS must be REALITY OR the device (as proof of reality) is broken and the last shot is meaningless... in fact the totems themselves become meaningless

Ultimately, the only part of the movie that remains ambigious is everything AFTER Cobb goes into limbo with Ariadne and Saito. It could be argued that everything past that point is a dream limbo state. Since we never see Cobb come out thru each successive layer of dream levels... he merely wakes up in the airplance

 

[Darth Caedus]

There is a simple and irrefutable piece of logic that speaks to fact that the majority of the film's time in 'the real world' is NOT A DREAM. If we say that Mal escaped the unreal dream world by killing herself in order to be with her children... why doesnt she just shut off the dream-sharing machine or drop the still dreaming Cobb into a bathtub to wake him from his dream to prove to him that they were dreaming? In fact, you can argue that there's no point to her asking him to jump with her, becuz if what she believed was true she could simply turn around and induce Cobb's Kick.

Moreover the spinning top FALLS several times during the movie. So THIS must be REALITY OR the device (as proof of reality) is broken and the last shot is meaningless... in fact the totems themselves become meaningless

Ultimately, the only part of the movie that remains ambigious is everything AFTER Cobb goes into limbo with Ariadne and Saito. It could be argued that everything past that point is a dream limbo state. Since we never see Cobb come out thru each successive layer of dream levels... he merely wakes up in the airplance

First, they tell you why she can't just shut off the machine; his mind is in so far deep, there is no kick, there is no waking up unless you do it yourself. If she turned off the machine, he would be in a "coma" state and his mind would be lost.

Second, I believe the top falls several times during the film because Cobb is in limbo and his subconscious controls everything accept Cobb himself. We know from Fischer, that your own subconscious can fill-in-the-blank for the person who's dreaming and I think that's what it did to Cobb.

Third, I do agree with you that everything is ambigious after Cobb goes into Limbo with Ariadne/Saito, but I don't think it was meant that way, I think it was meant to shorten the film time. Cobb waking up from each successive dream layer would be redundant because we already saw others do it.

 

[CelticPredator]

The Mombasa scene felt like a dream...because you wanted it to be. That's something Nolan implanted in your head. From the moment Cobb enters the Dream State with Yusef, in that room full of old people, he goes to the restroom to "wake up". Get back to reality. He tries to spin the top, but Satio statles him, and thus causes him to not be able to spin the top.

Your mind goes into a "Hmm...what if.." mode. It was the idea Nolan Incepted you with. But is it correct or not? I dont know. I dont think it was a dream. Its not like Cobb did anything too crazy. He was being chased.

Now if he was jumping off rooftops and had perfect aim....

It's a wild theory..but I have to go with Dileep on this one. If it was all a dream, the film would be pointless.

 

[SwedishHeat]

Moreover the spinning top FALLS several times during the movie. So THIS must be REALITY OR the device (as proof of reality) is broken and the last shot is meaningless... in fact the totems themselves become meaningless

Part of the problem is Cobb gives us the rules of the real world vs the dream world, but he is an unreliable narrator. As Arthur reminds Ariadne, Cobb does things he tells others not to do, he misleads his entire team as to the depth of his attachment to Mal, he asks Ariadne if Fischer changed anything in the maze. Cobb repeatedly breaks the rules he sets up. Are there any rules at all?? Is Cobb just inventing rules to keep control over his team members because he's lost control of everything else??

We can't trust Cobb to know that the spin or stop of the top dictates whether we're watching the real world or the dream world. Further, the top wasn't his totem, it was corrupted. Arthur and Ariadne are protective of their totems, they don't let anyone else know how it feels.

 

[CelticPredator]

Good point...but that's pushing it. He established rules, but he had to break rules because there was no time. Things were changed. Sometimes he'll break a few here or there...but seeing how the totem works of the others...lets just not delve into that.

Then the movie makes no sense whatsoever...and we're back at the confusing start.

 

[SwedishHeat]

It's a wild theory..but I have to go with Dileep on this one. If it was all a dream, the film would be pointless.

I was thinking one of the points of debate, the controversial issue, coming away from the film was, if you couldn't tell the difference between the dream world and the real world, and you could attain happiness in the dream world that you couldn't in the real world, would you stay in the dream world, or would you refuse simply because it wasn't real??

If the movie was all a dream, this "point" is still affected by the movie.

 

[CelticPredator]

Oh yes. The point is. And the end is the part that should be questioned...not the entire film.

The entire film being a dream is just a cop out...the ending however, it's almost poetic. He decides to leg go of the idea that his world "might" be false, and just go with it.

 

[tomandshell]

Part of the problem is Cobb gives us the rules of the real world vs the dream world, but he is an unreliable narrator.

This is what makes the movie so interesting to me. We see and experience so much through Cobb, but as you point out, he might not be a reliable narrator. Almost every interpretation of the film depends upon our acceptance of Cobb, his dreams and memories and statements. But what if all that can't be trusted?

For example, I find Mal to be one of the more interesting characters in the film--yet we never meet her in the "real world." The version of her that we see is a projection of his subconscious. You can argue that we get a glimpse of her during the flashback. But strictly speaking, I would suggest that the flashback is not even reality, but a cinematically visualized version of the story that he is telling to Ariadne. It is a story told about a memory, and the story (as well as the memory that it is based on) can be flawed, exaggerated, misrepresented, incomplete, subjective and biased. We assume that Mal was crazy because the version of Cobb's subconscious that masquerades as Mal acts crazy, and the story that he tells Ariadne about Mal fits the description as well. But again, all we see and hear about Mal comes through the filter of Cobb's conscious and unconscious memories, and forming a definitive view of the character is impossible based on what the film gives us.

 

[Darth Caedus]

Oh yes. The point is. And the end is the part that should be questioned...not the entire film.

The entire film being a dream is just a cop out...the ending however, it's almost poetic. He decides to leg go of the idea that his world "might" be false, and just go with it.

I don't think it would be a cop out, it's about Cobb's journey and how his subconscious showed him a way to finially overcome his own "guilt" about his wife. If the film was or wasn't a dream, I honestly don't think it matters; which is one of Cobb's points throughout the film.

 

[CelticPredator]

Eh. I disagree. The ending is fine if they went that way...but it's clear he was not dreaming.

 

[tomandshell]

If we say that Mal escaped the unreal dream world by killing herself in order to be with her children... why doesnt she just shut off the dream-sharing machine or drop the still dreaming Cobb into a bathtub to wake him from his dream to prove to him that they were dreaming?

Maybe she did, but he was in so deep that he was lost forever, and the entire movie is what is happening in his mind while he is lying in a coma in the real world.

The movie starts in limbo. Then it jumps without warning or explanation into a dream. Then it turns out that was really a dream within a dream. Then we jump out of that and end up on a train. At that point, some people in the audience apparently decided that we were most assuredly in the real world, and everything we saw could be implicitly trusted. I didn't. After the movie started the way it did, I never really settled down and assumed anything about the reality of what I was seeing, and I think that Nolan probably structured the first several minutes of the film that way on purpose. He pulls us onto a narrative train that's moving ahead full steam and challenges us to figure out what's going on and try to keep up.

The two most jarring jump cuts in the film are (1) at the very beginning where we switch from Cobb and Old Saito in limbo to their younger versions in what we later surmise is dream level two, and (2) the jump (again) from Old Saito and Cobb in limbo to the airplane. I am just suggesting that it's possible that we never left limbo through the entire film. Like a dream, it shifts from limbo to two hours of dreams and memories and then back again at the conclusion. He is in limbo on the beach, and then his mind takes him on a journey that leads him to accept the choice of settling down with his children at peace. The limbo bookends are very significant to me and say a great deal about the fat chunk of story that is presented between those two scenes. However, whether the ending is real or not, the story ends with Cobb walking away from the top and embracing his children. That's a satisfying conclusion for me regardless of how we choose to interpret its meaning.

 

[CelticPredator]

I just think that's too silly. We have no evidence supporting the theory that Mal is awake, and Cobb is not. That's too out there. We knew it was real up until they got on the plane. After that, it's fair game.

 

[tomandshell]

We knew it was real up until they got on the plane. After that, it's fair game.

I won't say that I knew anything was real, definitively. The film starts in limbo, and I think Nolan did that on purpose. You assume we leave limbo at some point. I'm suggesting that maybe we don't.

If this was supposed to have a clear cut and obvious interpretation, the film wouldn't have started in limbo and ended with a cut to black on a spinning top. It's great that the film has inspired different interpretations and I hope that thirty years from now people are still debating it as much as those who still disagree on whether or not Deckard was a replicant and how that can change the entire meaning and implications of Blade Runner.

 

[CelticPredator]

You could also say it's Cobb remembering all the events that led him to that moment. Remember, he was eating, had no clue what happend...then Satio reminded him about the top...MEMORY!!

 

[tomandshell]

You could also say it's Cobb remembering all the events that led him to that moment. Remember, he was eating, had no clue what happend...then Satio reminded him about the top...MEMORY!!

Stepping aside from all the theorizing, in terms of the movie's structure--yes, I believe that the entire movie is a flashback showing everything that happened leading up to that moment in limbo. And I also feel that we do ultimately step out of the dream and into reality once the story hits the train. But it's not that often that a movie is this complex and open to interpretation, and I'm really enjoying all of the different theories.

 

[CelticPredator]

I enjoy some...but not the zany ones like Mal was still alive, and Cobb is the one in limbo...that's just silly.

 

[EXOTICLEX]

what if at the end of the credits it showed the top fall....that would have been the way to end it imo

 

[EXOTICLEX]

or if it showed it spinning for another 10 or 15 seconds