Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (June 30th, 2023)

[Asta]

Spoiler

It just to me seems like pretty much anyone other than Hitler would be a major plus, especially a scientist like Voller who 1. would have been carefully psychologically vetted (Nazi membership aside...) by the US government to particpate in Apollo, and 2. doesn't come across as the hypnotic meglomaniac former soldier and master manipulator with an apocalyptic vision Hitler was from the very start. Voller's just a villain, bad guy with a plan.

And you're just speculating about the bomb - that's not in the movie - and the reality is, Hitler didn't slow down the development of the bomb or fumble it due to ineptitude, Germany simply lacked the tech/capablity to do it in time. It was a 1945 technology that Germany would have needed in 1944 or earlier.

So the millions you claim it would have saved isn't really supported by what's in the movie. This to me really comes down to Hilter's obsession with the holocaust, and the imperialist campaigns such as Russia which Hitler totally bungled by personally taking over the running of. These were Hitler's obsessive crazies that diminished Germany's war machine and lost them the war, the things that Voller seems to be indirectly referencing.

Spoiler

Killing Hitler might've resulted in more rational minds running the war, which would've made things tougher for the Allies, particularly later in the war.

It might also have prevented the Final Solution and saved a large proportion of the six million Jewish lives lost.

A more rational leader might not even have wasted valuable resources eliminating the Jews, that would otherwise go to the war effort.

But then Hitler largely took power by building on the fear of Jews, which wasn't a long held core belief of his. It was a pragmatic approach since he thanked the Jewish doctor who tried and failed to save his mother's life.

If Hitler hadn't persecuted the Jews for his own ambition, he might've had use of Jewish scientists and developed the Atom bomb first.

Messing with history brings the butterfly effect. Who knows what the outcome will be? It could be better or worse, so stopping Voller is a problematical scenario for the film.

 

[Asta]

Yeah I really liked the authenticity of that opening sequence. Yes, a few somewhat questionable CGI shots of the train part, but fun and thrilling, very Indy.

One thing I wasn't sure on, but I thought there should've been a blackout enforced on the train to protect it from air attack.

Though without the lights the scene would've been quite... black.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I'd say its the second best Indy opening behind Raiders.

That's excellent.

 

[Felinx]

Spoiler

Killing Hitler might've resulted in more rational minds running the war, which would've made things tougher for the Allies, particularly later in the war.

It might also have prevented the Final Solution and saved a large proportion of the six million Jewish lives lost.

A more rational leader might not even have wasted valuable resources eliminating the Jews, that would otherwise go to the war effort.

But then Hitler largely took power by building on the fear of Jews, which wasn't a long held core belief of his. It was a pragmatic approach since he thanked the Jewish doctor who tried and failed to save his mother's life.

If Hitler hadn't persecuted the Jews for his own ambition, he might've had use of Jewish scientists and developed the Atom bomb first.

Messing with history brings the butterfly effect. Who knows what the outcome will be? It could be better or worse, so stopping Voller is a problematical scenario for the film.

Spoiler

I just think peeps might be a bit in denial that our Indy's mission in this movie is indeed to stop a man who is trying to kill Hitler.

And the movie - to me at least - did a pretty poor job trying to convince us that Voller (simply a scientist egghead with a mean streak in both the opening and in 1969) in any alternate universe could have been somehow worse than the man renowned as the most evil person in the entire history of humanity.

 

[Felinx]

That's excellent.

As context, I was never a fan of the River Phoenix sequence (red-faced fat kid, bland Indy stand-in and fakety-fake circus animals and all) and while I'm partial to sizable chunks of TOD and love the costumes of the Obi Wan club and adore Indy in a tux with all the Bond goodness it brings, the opening of TOD does kinda stink. And I don't even remember the gopher-nuked-fridge thing - once and forgotten.

 

[Asta]

Spoiler

I just think peeps might be a bit in denial that our Indy's mission in this movie is indeed to stop a man who is trying to kill Hitler.

And the movie - to me at least - did a pretty poor job trying to convince us that Voller (simply a scientist egghead with a mean streak in both the opening and in 1969) in any alternate universe could have been somehow worse than the man renowned as the most evil person in the entire history of humanity.

Spoiler

The problem with the plot is that it isn't one of those black and white save the world scenarios. There's so many variables, and you don't know what the ultimate outcome will be.

Voller has the benefit of hindsight. He might avoid the Final Solution, and he might not have invaded Russia in 1941, but at some point Stalin would no doubt have invaded Germany so that's still a problem to deal with. He would have insisted the British be destroyed on the beaches at Dunkirk, and he'd know where the 1944 landings would take place (unless that changed with him changing history).

He could even advise Japan not to bomb Pearl Harbor in 1941, so as not to bring a reluctant USA into the war at that point.

He could pre-empt everything, and the world might end up like Philip K. ****'s The Man in the High Castle, divided between Germany and Japan.

However, as you wrote, DoD didn't do a very good job of illustrating the world without Hitler.

 

[Raiders March]

Ok, so saw this today. I liked it! The opening flashback is very original 3 and has awesome action and effects for the most part. After this we encounter old Professor Jones, a bit hard to digest as a shell of his former self, but that doesn’t linger for too long before the story kicks off. PWB doesn’t annoy really, but she definitely has a confidence and cockiness not unlike Indy in his prime, so I kind of see it her Mimicking her influencer and possible hero.
Mads as Voller was always going to be a highlight in this, he brings alot to his characters and is never over the top.
I do agree with others that the macguffin is never elaborated on enough to make it truly desirable or dangerous, like past ones have, however what is found with it could have made for an interesting and religious plot point, but really it’s all been done before, hasn’t it. The third act and ending I’ll leave to you to see how you feel about it’s inclusion, it’s certainly fitting and kinda original but I think they may of had a few tries at it before choosing what we get.
So now I’m happy to close the book on Ford’s Indy (I think he is too) and let him put the adventures aside. He will always be my favourite character, and have thoroughly enjoyed sharing in his thrilling story.

Ranking:
Raiders (of course)
Temple
Crusade
Dial ( at least he shoots a gun, but not in a Nepalese guys face)

and
Skull ( don’t hate it at all, but plenty of cheese and cringe)

 

[Mandible]

Just saw a great comment about the Dud of Destiny...

So, let's not leave Indy in the past because it may affect the future, but after thousands of people seeing (and attacking) a plane, it's okay to leave that there (albeit crashed), but after enough that transpired to ask questions about a "flying machine", and study the materials, shapes, etc. That's a monstrous thing/incident to plonk it the past, particularly with (a genius) Archimedes on hand.

Just a truly dumb third act.

 

[Felinx]

Just saw a great comment about the Dud of Destiny...

So, let's not leave Indy in the past because it may affect the future, but after thousands of people seeing (and attacking) a plane, it's okay to leave that there (albeit crashed), but after enough that transpired to ask questions about a "flying machine", and study the materials, shapes, etc. That's a monstrous thing/incident to plonk it the past, particularly with (a genius) Archimedes on hand.

Just a truly dumb third act.

Spoiler

You forgot the Nazi machine-gunning presumably dozens (a hundred or more) of ancient Romans and Greeks - what he hopes to achieve by doing that I have no idea - thereby dropping a butterfly wings bomb through history as tens of thousands of those now-dead soldiers' descendants disappear between 150BC and present day. Indy staying to die there would have changed little to nothing.

It's actually a visually fun sequence (who can have an issue with Romans and Nazis meeting in ancient Greece) but is almost completely non-sensical and more importantly, I can't place the Indy from ROTLA in the same world as this DoD climax, like I can't place gritty-real Gibson Mad Max in the near-fantasy world of Fury Road.

 

[Felinx]

Ok, so saw this today. I liked it! The opening flashback is very original 3 and has awesome action and effects for the most part. After this we encounter old Professor Jones, a bit hard to digest as a shell of his former self, but that doesn’t linger for too long before the story kicks off. PWB doesn’t annoy really, but she definitely has a confidence and cockiness not unlike Indy in his prime, so I kind of see it her Mimicking her influencer and possible hero.
Mads as Voller was always going to be a highlight in this, he brings alot to his characters and is never over the top.
I do agree with others that the macguffin is never elaborated on enough to make it truly desirable or dangerous, like past ones have, however what is found with it could have made for an interesting and religious plot point, but really it’s all been done before, hasn’t it. The third act and ending I’ll leave to you to see how you feel about it’s inclusion, it’s certainly fitting and kinda original but I think they may of had a few tries at it before choosing what we get.
So now I’m happy to close the book on Ford’s Indy (I think he is too) and let him put the adventures aside. He will always be my favourite character, and have thoroughly enjoyed sharing in his thrilling story.

Ranking:
Raiders (of course)
Temple
Crusade
Dial ( at least he shoots a gun, but not in a Nepalese guys face)

and
Skull ( don’t hate it at all, but plenty of cheese and cringe)

I'd agree with that ranking, though I find little to really love in Crusade. Temple is a bit of a mess but there's some great Indy visuals (Indy himself looks his best in TOD as someone just said) and vibe. To some degree Indy is a one-film classic franchise, almost as if George Lucas only made ANH then sold out to Disney.

But oddly, there is a decent amount to like in DoD, it just has a structural foundation of popsicle sticks and its sometimes fun or interesting elements are cemented together with velveeta cheese.

 

[Gipetto0812]

Saw the movie today and overall liked it quite a bit. I don’t delve too much into these types of conversations so all I’ll say is I really didn’t care Phoebe Waller Bridge and her sidekick at all. The movie would’ve been better without those two and funner if instead it was just Indy by himself going on this one last adventure to save the world while gaining help from all his old friends along the way. We sorta got that but instead we had Phoebe Waller Bridge taking up all the extra screen time that could’ve been used for more time with the old friends in better scenes.

Enjoyed the opening and ending. Opening felt very Indiana Jones as others have mentioned.

My Ranking is:
ToD
ROTLA
TLC
DoD
KOTCS

I do find my liking of TLC and DoD to be about equal though. When I was younger, I found TLC quite boring and have only grown to appreciate it more as an adult

 

[a-dev]

Spoiler

You forgot the Nazi machine-gunning presumably dozens (a hundred or more) of ancient Romans and Greeks - what he hopes to achieve by doing that I have no idea - thereby dropping a butterfly wings bomb through history as tens of thousands of those now-dead soldiers' descendants disappear between 150BC and present day. Indy staying to die there would have changed little to nothing.

That reminds me

Spoiler

of Star Trek First Contact where no one was at all concerned about all the people killed when the Borg travelled to 2063 and started bombing the site of Earth's first Warp-capable ship. By the end of the movie, sure they had ensured that humanity's first warp flight went ahead thus leading to First Contact with the Vulcans and thus leading to the Federation and Starfleet being formed - but what about the descendants of all those no name people that otherwise weren't supposed to die. The Enterprise crew could return to the future and find that swathes of people they knew (or knew of) no longer exist. This is all assuming a single timeline scenario as opposed to alternate timelines.

 

[lordnastrond]

Spoiler

Implying, obviously of course not - he's the movie's villain after all - but... surely any alternative to the real-world outcome of Hitler and the holocaust he was obsessed with carrying out (likely to the detriment of the military goals that Voller seems more focused on) has to be better, right? I'd take a tightly-wound but mild-mannered rocket scientist over a hypnotic-to-the-masses maniac soldier hell-bent on genocide right from the start.

They obviously toss in that on-the-nose junk concerning Voller and the black waiter guy to set up he's racist, but similar conversations likely occured in that same era involving regular Americans (and ironically it's even a logic that people like Farrakhan wouldn't exactly disapprove of - that no matter what, the guy's more African than American regardless of where he's born), so it's sort of meaningless.

Spoiler

It just to me seems like pretty much anyone other than Hitler would be a major plus, especially a scientist like Voller who 1. would have been carefully psychologically vetted (Nazi membership aside...) by the US government to particpate in Apollo, and 2. doesn't come across as the hypnotic meglomaniac former soldier and master manipulator with an apocalyptic vision Hitler was from the very start. Voller's just a villain, bad guy with a plan.

And you're just speculating about the bomb - that's not in the movie - and the reality is, Hitler didn't slow down the development of the bomb or fumble it due to ineptitude, Germany simply lacked the tech/capablity to do it in time. It was a 1945 technology that Germany would have needed in 1944 or earlier.

So the millions you claim it would have saved isn't really supported by what's in the movie. This to me really comes down to Hilter's obsession with the holocaust, and the imperialist campaigns such as Russia which Hitler totally bungled by personally taking over the running of. These were Hitler's obsessive crazies that diminished Germany's war machine and lost them the war, the things that Voller seems to be indirectly referencing.

A note on the villains plan versus history

Spoiler

Actually after a certain amount of time the Allies stopped trying to assassinate Hitler as they found his erratic behaviour, childish petulence and control freak tendencies were massively undermining the German war effort - this is actually why Hitler's generals tried to kill him in Operation Valkyrie, not out of a desire to stop the war, negotiate, or stop the Holocaust but because they wanted to win.
Hitler was just the voice of the movement, and as odd as it may seem, he was one of the less extreme minds in the party - Himmler for example was far more extreme in his hatred of the Jews and other ethnic minorities and his insane magical thinking (literally, the man believed only dark magic would win them the war, he spent a fortune on digging an enormous hole in the ground because he believed he would contact a subterranean race of aryan giants who would fight for the Germans).
The Holocaust happened because Hitler wanted it to, for sure, but it also happened because the entire party wanted it to happen. Hitler or Voller you would still have a Holocaust.
Germany invaded Russia because it had to.
One, because Stalin was clearly preparing to do the reverse and Hitler knew that he had to do it before Stalin had fully prepared for invasion, two because the entire Nazi ideology demanded it for lebensraum and a fanatical belief that the slavs were the lowest form of humanity, and finally because they would have lost the war if they didnt.
Following the Surrender of France, Hiter knew he had to force Britain to surrender or negotiate otherwise he would lose the war, he couldn't invade the island (Operation Sealion was a pipedream, they had no chance of defeating the Royal Navy with the Kriegsmarine and even Hitler knew it - his entire invasion force would have been slaughtered long before they landed on a single beach, and the island had been turned into a fortress), the Battle of Britain was an utter failure, and the British just wouldn't come to the negotiating table and the Nazis knew they were running out of time with the British Empire mobilizing. The German High Command came to the conclusion that the British would have no choice but to surrender once the Soviet Union was defeated and even if for some reason they didn't with the sheer resources of the Soviet Union under their control they would be able to more effectively wage war on Britain and its Empire.
The Nazis knew that so long as the British were not defeated their losing the war was inevitable, so in order to defeat the far more difficult and dangerous enemy of Britain they decided to attack and defeat the comparatively easy to invade Soviet Union who they both planned to invade eventually anyway and who they believed would be relatively easy to conquer.
Obviously they were wrong.
Voller wouldn't have (couldn't have) stopped the Holocaust because it was the will of the party. Most he could have done is kick the can down the road until the war was won.
Likewise he couldn't have not invaded Russia otherwise he would lose the war
So these events still happen, but because of Voller's hindsight he would be far more dangerous and these actions more successfull.
So yeah, overall I think its for the best he doesn't succeed.

 

[choombaz]

Not KOTCS terrible but nothing particularly great about it either. I would rank it fourth best (behind ROTLA, LC, TOD), the opening is probably third best behind ROTLA and TOD, the ending is second worst behind KOTCS.

 

[Asta]

A note on the villains plan versus history

Spoiler

Actually after a certain amount of time the Allies stopped trying to assassinate Hitler as they found his erratic behaviour, childish petulence and control freak tendencies were massively undermining the German war effort - this is actually why Hitler's generals tried to kill him in Operation Valkyrie, not out of a desire to stop the war, negotiate, or stop the Holocaust but because they wanted to win.
Hitler was just the voice of the movement, and as odd as it may seem, he was one of the less extreme minds in the party - Himmler for example was far more extreme in his hatred of the Jews and other ethnic minorities and his insane magical thinking (literally, the man believed only dark magic would win them the war, he spent a fortune on digging an enormous hole in the ground because he believed he would contact a subterranean race of aryan giants who would fight for the Germans).
The Holocaust happened because Hitler wanted it to, for sure, but it also happened because the entire party wanted it to happen. Hitler or Voller you would still have a Holocaust.
Germany invaded Russia because it had to.
One, because Stalin was clearly preparing to do the reverse and Hitler knew that he had to do it before Stalin had fully prepared for invasion, two because the entire Nazi ideology demanded it for lebensraum and a fanatical belief that the slavs were the lowest form of humanity, and finally because they would have lost the war if they didnt.
Following the Surrender of France, Hiter knew he had to force Britain to surrender or negotiate otherwise he would lose the war, he couldn't invade the island (Operation Sealion was a pipedream, they had no chance of defeating the Royal Navy with the Kriegsmarine and even Hitler knew it - his entire invasion force would have been slaughtered long before they landed on a single beach, and the island had been turned into a fortress), the Battle of Britain was an utter failure, and the British just wouldn't come to the negotiating table and the Nazis knew they were running out of time with the British Empire mobilizing. The German High Command came to the conclusion that the British would have no choice but to surrender once the Soviet Union was defeated and even if for some reason they didn't with the sheer resources of the Soviet Union under their control they would be able to more effectively wage war on Britain and its Empire.
The Nazis knew that so long as the British were not defeated their losing the war was inevitable, so in order to defeat the far more difficult and dangerous enemy of Britain they decided to attack and defeat the comparatively easy to invade Soviet Union who they both planned to invade eventually anyway and who they believed would be relatively easy to conquer.
Obviously they were wrong.
Voller wouldn't have (couldn't have) stopped the Holocaust because it was the will of the party. Most he could have done is kick the can down the road until the war was won.
Likewise he couldn't have not invaded Russia otherwise he would lose the war
So these events still happen, but because of Voller's hindsight he would be far more dangerous and these actions more successfull.
So yeah, overall I think its for the best he doesn't succeed.

Spoiler

Russia was a problem that would have to be dealt with at some point. Stalin wasn't prepared in June 1941 and Germany attacked while on a high from their early success with Blitzkrieg.

German hubris gave way to the reality of the massiveness of Russia and its seemingly endless supply of cannon fodder. They would never have been able to subdue it without the atom bomb, which is what Voller would've been seeking to acquire at the earliest opportunity. It's hindsight that makes Voller potentially more dangerous than Hitler, along with his knowledge of what mistakes to avoid.

The other side of the coin is that the holocaust could've been avoided in order to pour more resources into actually winning the war.

In 1940 the Nazis were still playing with the idea of forced resettlement (the Madagascar Plan), and the Final Solution wasn't formulated until 1942.

Most Nazis, and Germans in general, would probably have backed the softer approach if it was the will of their Fuhrer. Having read the Nuremberg Trials Archive, it was evident that even the staunchest of Nazis became sickened by the reality of the things they were being ordered to do.

There's a record of a communication from an SS Einsatzgruppen officer requesting more troops so that he could rotate them more frequently, because his men were becoming too distressed by the nature of their activities. Even Himmler supposedly vomited in August 1941 after witnessing a demonstration of a mass-shooting of Jews in Minsk. That prompted him to look for other means of murder, including gas vans, at a demonstration of which he apparently turned pale.

This is all pretty dark and disturbing for a silly popcorn movie though, and it's better not to dwell on it. Yet it's central to the plot: what kind of world would Voller create? How many would be saved, or how many more would die under his leadership?

The answer for Indy may be to stick with the devil you know. Prevent history from changing. Though that all falls apart when an aeroplane joins the siege of Syracuse in 212 BC and attacks the participants with weapons from the future. Then to top it off Indy wants to stay in 212 BC, which would disrupt history no end.

This part of the film felt like a wild flight of fancy, akin to some of the wilder moments of KOTCS.

 

[a-dev]

and I am just soooo sick of these rage-baity Youtubers who promote themselves as free thinkers yet seem to exist in their own echo chambers.

Yeah you'd think if they were truly free thinkers they'd disagree with eachother from time to time but without fail they always have the same opinions and views in their respective videos and in their get-togethers. Their idea of free thinking is seemingly just to be anti-woke. You notice it's the same outside of movie-dom and pop culture topics. 'Free thinkers' who always seem to have entirely predictable views on any given subject, like there's a prescribed set of views you must adhere to. And without irony they accuse others of being sheep. It's hilarious.

 

[Felinx]

Yeah you'd think if they were truly free thinkers they'd disagree with eachother from time to time but without fail they always have the same opinions and views in their respective videos and in their get-togethers. Their idea of free thinking is seemingly just to be anti-woke. You notice it's the same outside of movie-dom and pop culture topics. 'Free thinkers' who always seem to have entirely predictable views on any given subject, like there's a prescribed set of views you must adhere to. And without irony they accuse others of being sheep. It's hilarious.

You could insert "leftist radicals" in your paragraph and change "anti-woke" to "anti-establishment" and it would the same 50 years ago (ironically, the era DoD is set). It's just reversed now - leftism, which many call woke, is the establishment now, mostly because many of those same young radicals are now senior in academia, politics, entertainment and news media. It's the reason we see everything from the 60s and 70s depicted with rose colored glasses - the "establishment" always controls the narrative, and the fringe (back then, underground movements, today on media like YT) fights however it can. The dynamic is starting to change as those leftist power players start to age out - its a cycle. But the rigid dogma (literally what the Chinese called "political correctness") you're pointing out is the same on either side, with minimal variance (trans activism vs radical feminism being a rare example currently.)

 

[wormlander]

Stop with the trolling and keep things civil.

This is your only warning.

Thread cleaned.

Did I miss all the fun again?..

 

[wormlander]

But it’s a prequel and we know the ending already.

Or do we

Maybe he pulls a Tarantino...

 

[The Buffinator]

Spoiler

It just to me seems like pretty much anyone other than Hitler would be a major plus, especially a scientist like Voller who 1. would have been carefully psychologically vetted (Nazi membership aside...) by the US government to particpate in Apollo, and 2. doesn't come across as the hypnotic meglomaniac former soldier and master manipulator with an apocalyptic vision Hitler was from the very start. Voller's just a villain, bad guy with a plan.

And you're just speculating about the bomb - that's not in the movie - and the reality is, Hitler didn't slow down the development of the bomb or fumble it due to ineptitude, Germany simply lacked the tech/capablity to do it in time. It was a 1945 technology that Germany would have needed in 1944 or earlier.

So the millions you claim it would have saved isn't really supported by what's in the movie. This to me really comes down to Hilter's obsession with the holocaust, and the imperialist campaigns such as Russia which Hitler totally bungled by personally taking over the running of. These were Hitler's obsessive crazies that diminished Germany's war machine and lost them the war, the things that Voller seems to be indirectly referencing.

Spoiler

Yes I admit I’m speculating about the atomic bomb, but it was obvious that Voller’s goal was similar to Hitler’s (Germany as the world’s superpower), he just felt Hitler was ultimately the wrong man for the job. Hence his ominous comment to the room service waiter early on - “You didn’t win the war; Hitler lost it.” And if he’s going to go back and eliminate Hitler & his costly military decisions, his sabotaging the Manhattan Project as well (leading to Germany developing the bomb first) doesn’t seem like too much of a stretch.