LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!
- Thread starter Darklord Dave
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just curious... how old are you?
No offense, but I've found the younger set tends to focus only on that onion peel layer of storytelling.
Memnoch
Lt. Vulture
And if you guys are waiting for only Island lore.. you won't get all your answers. This last season has been said to be very character driven much like the first one was. If the characters dont want or need an answer to something we aren't going to get it.
One thing though... Did she really say those last few things to Hurley that Hurley told Richard?
Something Sexy
Super Freak
25, and I LOVE deep story. I will take deep story and character development over action ANY day but for some reason with LOST it never clicked with me. The island/fantasy/lore is what clicked with me first and got me watching the show.
Oh I know, in fact I pretty much had that feeling from the start and then I read all the interviews with the creators and BAM. I find that to be a major cop out in my opinion.
I think she did, I think they just didn't want to keep repeating it.
lcummins
Universal MODster
I think so... she said several things that Hurley didn't actually repeat to Richard, but I think it was supposed to be implied that he did.
It was a good episodes and a lot of answers (and more questions! 
) but...
I did like Richard's story-line but his acting wasn't necessarily great IMO...
I have a few problems with last night's episode and also a lot of questions...
- First, Richard's acting was over the top Telemundo style...
at moments I was waiting for Conando to appear... sorry...
and for most people this isn't a big deal but he has this heavy Cuban accent yet he's playing a Spaniard.
- I also got the Ghost vibe from Hurley/Isabella channeling... and that wasn't good
- The Black Rock would've been smashed into pieces when hitting the statue... yet it lands almost in one piece...
- I wonder, if the Slave/Prisoner-recruiter is taking them to the New World (America as a continent):
a) Why do they need to speak English?
b) Going from Spain to America via the Pacific Ocean?...
c) Unless they were in fact heading to the Island on purpose and if so why?
Overall not my favorite episode, I was a bit disappointed with some details but it did deliver tons of info and answers!!
7 more to go!
) but...I did like Richard's story-line but his acting wasn't necessarily great IMO...
I have a few problems with last night's episode and also a lot of questions...
- First, Richard's acting was over the top Telemundo style...
at moments I was waiting for Conando to appear... sorry...
and for most people this isn't a big deal but he has this heavy Cuban accent yet he's playing a Spaniard.
- I also got the Ghost vibe from Hurley/Isabella channeling... and that wasn't good
- The Black Rock would've been smashed into pieces when hitting the statue... yet it lands almost in one piece...
- I wonder, if the Slave/Prisoner-recruiter is taking them to the New World (America as a continent):
a) Why do they need to speak English?
b) Going from Spain to America via the Pacific Ocean?...
c) Unless they were in fact heading to the Island on purpose and if so why?
Overall not my favorite episode, I was a bit disappointed with some details but it did deliver tons of info and answers!!
7 more to go!
Yes. Correct.
Yeah that's what I thought too. My oldest didn't think so, so I wanted to see what you guys thought.
Memnoch
Lt. Vulture
Two problems. 1. it's been established that the Island can move. Remember all the chalk marks in the Lamppost station? and 2. They weren't coming from Spain, per se, but the Canary Islands. Also, most English speakers cannot pick up the differences in Spanish accents, just the way it is. I don't think the island exists on this plane. I think it's slightly out of sync or something like that. Remember Hawking said they need to pass through a certain window to get back? And they had to have exact coordinates for the sub and ship to come back and forth?
There were Cuban and Mexican accents. Only the doctor spoke with a Spainish one and no it didn't bother me at all.
Might as well wonder why Richard was sold into British slavery in 1867 when slaving was outlawed in 1833 or why Isabella had a modern catch on her necklace. I let minor bloopers and continuity errors like those slide as fixating on them only spoils the show. Only one that bothered me was that they had previous established that The Black Rock was thought to be lost at sea following its departure from Portsmouth, England, March 22, 1845 and the ledger was discovered in 1852.
And I wonder if MiB must be stabbed with Jacob's knife as Jacob was killed by the MiB's knife? Stupid Dogen gave Sayid the wrong knife.
lcummins
Universal MODster
Not necessarily... with enough force (like from a wave) and the right angle, it could smash through it and land in the jungle relatively unharmed.
Who says the Island was in the Pacific during the Black Rock adventure???
Michael Crawford
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Some current thoughts...
Hurley isn't talking to dead people...he's talking to Jacob, acting as dead people. Once Jacob was killed, they flipped: Smokey is now got his human self back as Locke and can't switch anymore, and Jacob is now ethereal and can take on the appearance of the dead. He manipulated Richard again, using his wife, just like Smokey tried to do all those years before. There's a reason it was in the same episode His wife telling them they'd all end up in Hell was the sure giveaway that it was Jacob - that's the same speil he used before.
Jacob's willingness to lie was pretty evident last night as well. When he attacks Richard, he demands to know who he is and acts as though he doesn't know why he's there...then later tells Richard (and we know) that he brought the ship to the island. I can guarantee that Richard's name is on the wheel or cave ceiling. He also told Richard that the island was keeping Smokey trapped, yet it appears that it's Jacob that's doing it, not the island. Or perhaps more importantly, the island was just the cork in his example, and the bottle was Jacob.
If we assume that both Jacob and Smokey are lying to everyone at least 90% of the time (hence the whole Hell thing with Richard last night) to avoid revealing their true motivations, how do we glean any truth? From their conversations with each other. We can probably assume they have no real need to lie to each other.
That does tell us that Smokey really does want off the island, and has for at least the last 150 years. We also know that prior to that, there is some sort of ongoing 'game' (for lack of a better word), since they use the black and white stones to show who's ahead at any one point (and there was a white and black one on the balance in the cave, obviously to indicate agreement that they were in balance at the time). Also indicating the game like situation is the two separate 'offices', with the cave serving as Smokey's and the lighthouse as Jacob's. They have been tasked with this ongoing objective - Jacob selects candidates to prove humanity is good, Smokey sets up traps and tricks to prove they are all corruptible.
What went wrong with their ongoing game? Let's go back to this idea that only one of them can be truly 'human' at one time. Maybe the crazy mom created that situation, maybe they are a split personality, and only one personality can be in control of the humanity at a time. And maybe they used to share it - i get to be human for awhile, you get to be human for awhile. But maybe at some point Jacob decided he was going to be the human. He gets to leave the island, he gets all the benefits of a truly physical self. He screws Smokey, forcing him to remain ethereal. In that state, Smokey can never again leave the island.
Remember that while Jacob tells Smokey he'll never let him leave the island as long as Jacob is alive, he doesn't say why. No comment about Smokey being evil, or hurting the world, or maybe...just because Jacob knows he'll never come back, leaving Jacob locked in the state he has smokey in now. Personally, I think that at the end we're going to feel for old smokey and hate Jacob.
BTW, other people may have already had this revelation, but it hit me last night that the Others didn't get their name from Dharma or any other group on the island - they got it from Jacob. Jacob can't interact with the candidates in his living form (probably one of the rules, like you can't kill the candidates directly), and there appears to be other things he can't do (like protecting the candidates from various threats)...therefore, he needs 'others' to do these things for him. Therefore, he refered to his group of followers as the 'Others', and it stuck.
Hurley isn't talking to dead people...he's talking to Jacob, acting as dead people. Once Jacob was killed, they flipped: Smokey is now got his human self back as Locke and can't switch anymore, and Jacob is now ethereal and can take on the appearance of the dead. He manipulated Richard again, using his wife, just like Smokey tried to do all those years before. There's a reason it was in the same episode
His wife telling them they'd all end up in Hell was the sure giveaway that it was Jacob - that's the same speil he used before.Jacob's willingness to lie was pretty evident last night as well. When he attacks Richard, he demands to know who he is and acts as though he doesn't know why he's there...then later tells Richard (and we know) that he brought the ship to the island. I can guarantee that Richard's name is on the wheel or cave ceiling. He also told Richard that the island was keeping Smokey trapped, yet it appears that it's Jacob that's doing it, not the island. Or perhaps more importantly, the island was just the cork in his example, and the bottle was Jacob.
If we assume that both Jacob and Smokey are lying to everyone at least 90% of the time (hence the whole Hell thing with Richard last night) to avoid revealing their true motivations, how do we glean any truth? From their conversations with each other. We can probably assume they have no real need to lie to each other.
That does tell us that Smokey really does want off the island, and has for at least the last 150 years. We also know that prior to that, there is some sort of ongoing 'game' (for lack of a better word), since they use the black and white stones to show who's ahead at any one point (and there was a white and black one on the balance in the cave, obviously to indicate agreement that they were in balance at the time). Also indicating the game like situation is the two separate 'offices', with the cave serving as Smokey's and the lighthouse as Jacob's. They have been tasked with this ongoing objective - Jacob selects candidates to prove humanity is good, Smokey sets up traps and tricks to prove they are all corruptible.
What went wrong with their ongoing game? Let's go back to this idea that only one of them can be truly 'human' at one time. Maybe the crazy mom created that situation, maybe they are a split personality, and only one personality can be in control of the humanity at a time. And maybe they used to share it - i get to be human for awhile, you get to be human for awhile. But maybe at some point Jacob decided he was going to be the human. He gets to leave the island, he gets all the benefits of a truly physical self. He screws Smokey, forcing him to remain ethereal. In that state, Smokey can never again leave the island.
Remember that while Jacob tells Smokey he'll never let him leave the island as long as Jacob is alive, he doesn't say why. No comment about Smokey being evil, or hurting the world, or maybe...just because Jacob knows he'll never come back, leaving Jacob locked in the state he has smokey in now. Personally, I think that at the end we're going to feel for old smokey and hate Jacob.
BTW, other people may have already had this revelation, but it hit me last night that the Others didn't get their name from Dharma or any other group on the island - they got it from Jacob. Jacob can't interact with the candidates in his living form (probably one of the rules, like you can't kill the candidates directly), and there appears to be other things he can't do (like protecting the candidates from various threats)...therefore, he needs 'others' to do these things for him. Therefore, he refered to his group of followers as the 'Others', and it stuck.
Interesting theories Michael. I don't agree with any of them, but interesting none the less. I don't see Jacob as a liar, just that he leaves out much and isn't a direct "this is wtf is going on" kind of guy. Some people can be told in the back of a cab, others need a magical lighthouse.
I don't see Jacob as a liar, just that he leaves out much and isn't a direct "this is wtf is going on" kind of guy. Some people can be told in the back of a cab, others need a magical lighthouse.
lcummins
Universal MODster
Michael may be on to something though... LOST is all about "misdirection"! It wouldn't surprise me to see a flip with Jacob and the MiB... I mean, good wearing white and evil wearing black! Way too predictable for LOST!!!
Didn't Miles tell Ben that Jacob mis-judged him or something to that effect?
lcummins
Universal MODster
Maybe he was "ready to die" and it was time for the next candidate, but with Richard, he still had a lot of work to do?
Do the actions and demeanor of MiB scream "good guy"? murdering dozens of people, acting from a place of selfishness and personal gain. Really? I know Lost is all about twists but c'mon. Since so much of this show is Stephen King inspired, it would be like Randall Flagg from The Stand or Dark Tower becoming the good guy, it just doesn't wash. We are nearing the end and things must become clearer not more murky. The show is complicated enough for the average viewer, I don't think they're headed in an even muddier MiB is actually the good guy and hero direction.
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