LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

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Something like:

Jacob (God) is supreme over the events of the island (omnipotent), yet allows (finite) Smokey (the devil) to orchestrate the finer nuances of "his plan?"

Could this be boiling down to an attempt to answer the age-old question of the problem of evil?

1) God exists

2) Evil exists

3) God either cannot stop evil (impotent) or chooses not to (unloving)

:dunno
 
I think that Jacob does believe in the inherent "goodness" in people and wants to show MiB that people aren't like him [MiB]. While Jacob does want to show this, he doesn't want to interfere lest he prove MiB correct. What Jacob does may make him appear to be "like" MiB, I think he's the polar opposite. MiB wants to corrupt and show Jacob that [humans] are like him, while Jacob wants to bring [humans] to the island and let them show their true nature
 
And saying Jacob doesn't lie? C'mon. You know the entire conversation about Hell was an outright lie.

uh... the entire conversation where he reveals truth and proves to Richard that he is not in fact dead and is not in fact in Hell, and that those were MiB lies?

He manipulates people just like Smokey, and he hasn't shown any unwillingness to kill when it suited his purpose.

No. Jacob has manipulated the candidates no doubt but in the same manner as MiB? Nope, it certainly doesn't seem that way. Jacob wants people to come to their own conclusions, make up their own minds and look within themselves for what is right and wrong. MiB has no such desire. He directly leads and uses their love - Nadia, Juliet, Aaron, Isabella - as a means of control and weapons against them. And name 1 person we have seen or know of that Jacob has murdered by his own hand. We have seen no such action and there are no clues pointing towards Jacob as the killer of the Ajira folks, whereas MiB has murdered dozens. And simply from a common sense stand point, would the man that so savagely killed Eko in cold blood be a "good guy"?

He also shows little concern for the actual candidates beyond whether or not they fulfill his agenda.

You cite King - was Roland 'good' when he allowed Jake to die for his greater purpose of reaching the Tower? Or when he killed the entire town? He did it to fulfill his agenda, and I'd argue he didn't really become 'good' until much later in the books, when the humanity was returned to him with his relationship to the others that were drawn.

exactly like the Old Testament God.

And while Roland is the mystical center of that story, he doesn't quite fulfill the same role Jacob seems to. Still, both men allow others to die, and put them in danger, people they care deeply about, because they must. It's the man in the red shoes or Charlie Pace all over again. Whatever happened, happened.

Does God know the outcome of the Job wager with the Devil before hand? yes, but the play must still be enacted. Just as I believe Jacob knows how the whole shebang will end, or circle back on itself and restart, but it must play out as destiny intends.
 
I'm with Michael. Jacob may be the good guy compared to MiB, but he ain't really a good guy.
 
Out of curiosity, what specific examples do you guys cite as Jacob's "evil doings"?
 
uh... the entire conversation where he reveals truth and proves to Richard that he is not in fact dead and is not in fact in Hell, and that those were MiB lies?

Yep, that was the truth. But he told him that not because it was the truth but because it was the opposite of what Smokey told him. He told Ricard what he needed to to manipulate him to be on his 'side' - look no further than his 'gloating' by having Richard give the white rock to Smokey. What more of a childish 'ha ha' could you need?

Again, I'm not saying he lies ALL the time. Smokey doesn't either - he came to Claire and admitted his own lie about Aaron to her, telling her the truth about Kate taking him. He didn't do this because it was the truth, but because by telling her the truth at this point, he could further manipulate her.

I think the big answer here is that both Smokey AND Jacob are wrong - people aren't inherently good or bad. They are self serving. And both Jacob and Smokey are as well.

No. Jacob has manipulated the candidates no doubt but in the same manner as MiB? Nope, it certainly doesn't seem that way. Jacob wants people to come to their own conclusions, make up their own minds and look within themselves for what is right and wrong. MiB has no such desire. He directly leads and uses their love - Nadia, Juliet, Aaron, Isabella - as a means of control and weapons against them. And name 1 person we have seen or know of that Jacob has murdered by his own hand. We have seen no such action and there are no clues pointing towards Jacob as the killer of the Ajira folks, whereas MiB has murdered dozens. And simply from a common sense stand point, would the man that so savagely killed Eko in cold blood be a "good guy"?

We have seen Jacob manipulate people in exactly the same manner as Smokey. Case in point - Jack and Sawyer. Smokey shows Sawyer his name on the ceiling, knowing that for Sawyer this will piss him off and win him over. Jacob shows Jack his name on the wheel, knowing this will feed his need to be important, and win him over.

As to killing with his own hand - you're cutting a fine thread here. Killing through others or killing through neglect doesn't resolve you of responsibility. You mention Nadia - who stopped Sayid on that street corner, saving him but killing her? I may be mis-remembering, but it sure seems like it was Jacob. And why? Because it fit his plan - not because he cared about Sayid or Nadia.

I think it's also important that killing hasn't been Jacob's job in this little 'game'. It's Smokeys. We haven't seen people killed off by Jacob because that's not what he needs to do. Smokey kills off extras when they either don't serve the game's purpose, or when they are no longer useful.

I have no doubt it's possible that Jacob is a god-like figure and Smokey is a devil-like figure. It just seems a tad too black and white for this show - or for it to be all that interesting. It's a very pedestrian story, and one that doesn't lend itself well to hidden plots and secrets. For example, the others stories you cite - especially the Dark Tower series - there isn't any ambiguity about good and bad, and the motivation of said characters isn't ever in question. On Lost, that's not the case. The motivations and backstory of Smokey and Jacob are a key piece of the unanswered questions, and I think the answer that Jacob is a good guy trying to contain the evil that is Smokey is just too...pedestrian.

On an unrelated note...sort of...I predict that we get a big Jacob/Smokey flashback episode in the fourth to last show, with a big showdown in the 3rd and 2nd (they'll want to start the showdown just prior to the big finale to drive even bigger ratings), with the final hour wrapping up how the outcome effects all the characters and brings the timelines back together.
 
Out of curiosity, what specific examples do you guys cite as Jacob's "evil doings"?


Some people might see spying and manipulation as "evil"... what about when he distracted Sayid when he probably knew full well what was about to happen to Nadia?

EDIT: Michael beat me to it! :lol
 
The Judeo-Christian God is "evil" by that definition. :D

To say God is evil or a murderer because puppies die or cancer exists is wrongheaded, imo. But such is the age old debate of why God created evil or allows it to exist.

Yep, that was the truth. But he told him that not because it was the truth but because it was the opposite of what Smokey told him.

There is nothing in the show to prove this. Just individual interpretation. Obviously each side wants to recruit, but the difference is MiB is willing to lie, kill and promise the return of lost love. Jacob has not engaged in those tactics.

Again, I'm not saying he lies ALL the time.

or ever. ;)

Again, no clear example of him outright lying about anything has been presented.

Jacob bestows life, while MiB death. Light and dark seem better definitions than good and bad, as light and dark, life and death, are both necessary and define and balance each other. But as the corruptibility of man's nature is at the heart of the wager and MiB actively preys upon self interest while it seems Jacob appeals to self sacrifice, the good and evil definitions may apply. It all comes back to "live together or die alone", that is self interest for the benefit of the one vs self sacrifice for the benefit of many.
 
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The Judeo-Christian God is "evil" by that definition. :D



There is nothing in the show to prove this. Just individual interpretation.



or ever. ;)

Again, no clear example of him outright lying about anything has been presented.

Jacob bestows life, while MiB death. Light and dark seem better definitions than good and bad, as light and dark, life and death, are both necessary and define and balance each other. But as the corruptibility of man's nature is at the heart of the wager and MiB actively preys upon self interest while it seems Jacob appeals to self sacrifice, the good and evil definitions may apply. It all comes back to "live together or die alone", that is self interest for the benefit of the one vs self sacrifice for the benefit of many.

Maybe that just means he's really goood at it.

As for your question about Jacob's evil doings, he stated that he brough the Black Rock there. So...the people who died in the shipwreck were killed by his actions. The people who were killed by Smokey were killed by his actions. The slaves in the hold that were killed by the captain died as a direct result of his actions, but I can let that one slide since I doubt there were going to have a good ending either way.

Also, I don't remember if its been said specifically, but the impression that I have is that Jacob brought our current group to the island. So if that's the case didn't everyone who died in the crash and since die as a result of Jacob's actions?

Personally I consider the way he manupulates people's lives to be wrong. Maybe evil is too strong of a word.

As for your comment about the Judeo-Christian God being evil...are we debating religion or Lost? Clearly the producers are drawing heavily on the biblical story of Job, but I don't see how that impacts whether Jacob is good, evil, neither, or both. Is your point that if God is good Jacob is good and if God is evil Jacob is evil, etc? To me that's either comparing a real entity to a fictional character, or two non-related fictional characters depending on how one personally views religion. Regardless they are completely seperate and have very little (if anything) to do with each other.
 
Interesting - I think the light and dark angle is better than good and bad, but I have to wonder. When had Jacob 'bestowed life'? He gave Richard eternal life - but after manipulating him to be his right hand man. Let's not forget that while he didn't outright lie (again, you're cutting a fine thread between lying and leaving out the truth), he didn't try to explain to Richard that he didn't have to be absolved of his sins by God to be with his wife again. He merely answered only the direct question, saying he couldn't absolve him, leaving him to go to the third option that fit Jacob's needs.

And how can Jacob appeal to self sacrifice, when he himself appears to sacrifice nothing? He seems to be the one living large.

I've also been pondering the actual game. We know there is one, and it seems to be pretty obvious that it's around our corruptibility. But it also seems that Jacob is still happy to play the game, while Smokey has grown tired of it. The earlier beach scene is the perfect example, where it's clear that Smokey is tired of it turning out the same every time, and doing the same dance over again, and yet Jacob looks forward to it. Jacob likes to rub Smokies nose in his 'wins'...I have to wonder what that means. I have no idea, but I'll be pondering it, that's for sure.
 
As for your comment about the Judeo-Christian God being evil...are we debating religion or Lost? Clearly the producers are drawing heavily on the biblical story of Job, but I don't see how that impacts whether Jacob is good, evil, neither, or both. Is your point that if God is good Jacob is good and if God is evil Jacob is evil, etc? To me that's either comparing a real entity to a fictional character, or two non-related fictional characters depending on how one personally views religion. Regardless they are completely seperate and have very little (if anything) to do with each other.

If God watches and manipulates humans, do you view that as evil? If Jacob does it apparently it is. If God allows a good person to die and does not intervene, is he evil? Apparently if Jacob does he is.

My point is that a character like the Judeo-Christian God behaves this way in his stories, specially the Book of Job, and is generally considered to be a figure of "good", if Jacob behaves in the same observant but detached manner in his story, why should he then be viewed as "evil" for the same behavior? I don't see how you can possibly view their stories as completely different or separate. And regardless of your religious views, you do know it's not only ok, but actually very powerful and insightful to compare fictional and non fictional characters, right? ;)
 
What does Tomandshell have to say about this? He does have a degree from Lost U and thus his opinion has more heft. :lol
 
When had Jacob 'bestowed life'?

life/healing. Rose and Locke. But depends if you think Locke died in the fall, I do, or if Jacob via the Island healed Rose's cancer and Locke's paralysis. Also Jacob's statue Tarawet is the goddess of life and birth, MiB is associated with Anubis, god of death. Could also be the reason Jacob had no power to bring Isabella back, rather than him simply choosing not to.

And the dude freaking allowed himself to be killed ala Jesus when he could have fled, etc. Seemed he knew what was coming and it felt like a sacrifice to me. We will see what Jack decides for Team Jacob. I'm pretty sure Jacob has fore knowledge, just as he knew who would be on 815, and knew how things will end - Jack taking over his job and possibly giving Jacob the list of 815 candidates in the past. It's easy to be confident when you know what's coming around the bend. "It only ends once. Everything else is just... progress."
 
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Well on one level you are arguing a comparison between a supreme being a fictional character and comparing a religion to a TV show.

On another level you are comparing ancient mythology to a modern TV show.

I don't see how you can use one to justify or criticize the other.

If you replaced the Judeo-Christian God with Zeus would it change the discussion any?
 
Well on one level you are arguing a comparison between a supreme being a fictional character and comparing a religion to a TV show.

On another level you are comparing ancient mythology to a modern TV show.

I don't see how you can use one to justify or criticize the other.


so? :huh

They're all stories, pal. Surely you see that you are a character in a story just as much as Jesus Christ, John Locke, Adolf Hitler, Luke Skywalker, or William Randalf Hurst are characters in their stories.

If you replaced the Judeo-Christian God with Zeus would it change the discussion any?

of course. Zeus is a different character with different character traits and stories.
 
Examples of Jacob lying:

When he told Hurley to take Jack to the lighthouse to signal a coming ship.

Examples of Jacob bestowing life:

He brought Locke back to life after his fall from the window that crippled him.

Examples of Jacob killing:

Probably commanding Widmore to have the whole Dharma town killed in the 70's. (Widmore was in charge at this time so it may have been just his own order.)


This is all I could think about right now. I'm sure there are more.
 
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