LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

[Memnoch]

Didn't Miles tell Ben that Jacob mis-judged him or something to that effect?

I believe Miles said to him that Jacob believed right up to the very end that Ben wouldn't kill him.

 

[lcummins]

Do the actions and demeanor of MiB scream "good guy"? murdering dozens of people, acting from a place of selfishness and personal gain. Really? I know Lost is all about twists but c'mon. We are nearing the end and things must become clearer not more murky. The show is complicated enough for the average viewer, I don't think they're headed in an even muddier MiB is actually the good guy and hero direction.

But all of those actions may be explainable in a "good" light...

 

[Entropy]

explain murdering people as a "good" thing. And how many people have we seen Jacob directly kill?

Quick question:

Why did Jacob just let Ben kill him, but when Richard tried he put up a bad ass fight?

because dying was part of his plan and it needed to happen for the rest... *cough* Jack's choice *cough*... to take place.
And Jacob believed right up to the end that Ben would make the right choice. He was not necessarily referring to Ben stabbing him or not. More likely the redemptive action we will see Ben take in a future ep.

 

[lcummins]

One other point I thought of last night... it was a nice touch that they actually "covered" one of the most prevailing theories from the earliest days... that is, that they all died in the plane crash and were in hell. Kind of like a "tribute" to all the fan theories out there.

 

[lcummins]

explain murdering people as a "good" thing. And how many people have we seen Jacob directly kill?...

Well... ok, you could... no wait... let's see... hmmm?... I'm not the writer of the show! Ask them!!

 

[pixletwin]

Didn't they already touch on the Island = Hell in the episode with Locke's father as Locke's prisoner on the Black Rock?

 

[Something Sexy]

One other point I thought of last night... it was a nice touch that they actually "covered" one of the most prevailing theories from the earliest days... that is, that they all died in the plane crash and were in hell. Kind of like a "tribute" to all the fan theories out there.

Yea but the creators already came out and said a while go that they aren't in hell or aren't in purgatory they are in an actual place and are alive.

 

[Darth Caedus]

Question: Could have sworn the black rock was coming towardthe island during the morning in last season's finale, not a rain storm at night........

 

[lcummins]

Didn't they already touch on the Island = Hell in the episode with Locke's father as Locke's prisoner on the Black Rock?

I don't remember that, but I guess it is possible... if they did, I didn't get the same "theory" vibe I got with last night. I mean, Richard almost said the theory word for word... we're all dead and this is hell...

 

[Entropy]

Question: Could have sworn the black rock was coming towardthe island during the morning in last season's finale, not a rain storm at night........

Yeah. odd.

Continuity error? A sudden tropical storm sprung up? or Island magic?

 

[lcummins]

Yea but the creators already came out and said a while go that they aren't in hell or aren't in purgatory they are in an actual place and are alive.

Oh I know they aren't really in hell... that is what made it great, that they brought up the "theory" in the first place during the first half of the episode.

 

[Something Sexy]

I don't remember that, but I guess it is possible... if they did, I didn't get the same "theory" vibe I got with last night. I mean, Richard almost said the theory word for word... we're all dead and this is hell...

Pretty sure he is just going crazy and remembering things from his past, when they told him this was hell was just to appeal to the time and his character. I am pretty sure they are all alive and on an actual island. People have come and gone, makes no sense that way.

 

[Something Sexy]

Oh I know they aren't really in hell... that is what made it great, that they brought up the "theory" in the first place during the first half of the episode.

Oh yea definitely, I gotcha. I just thought that was known already from years ago.

 

[Something Sexy]

Yeah. odd.

Continuity error? A sudden tropical storm sprung up? or Island magic?

Naw Jacob said he brought them there so I assume he causes the storm.

 

[lcummins]

Pretty sure he is just going crazy and remembering things from his past, when they told him this was hell was just to appeal to the time and his character. I am pretty sure they are all alive and on an actual island. People have come and gone, makes no sense that way.

No,no... you are mistaking what I'm saying... I believe they are all alive as well. What I'm saying is the creators gave the fan theories a nod by trying to convince us they are dead and in hell for the first half of the episode.

 

[Something Sexy]

No,no... you are mistaking what I'm saying... I believe they are all alive as well. What I'm saying is the creators gave the fan theories a nod by trying to convince us they are dead and in hell for the first half of the episode.

Yea I get ya, I corrected myself above.

 

[Entropy]

Oh yea definitely, I gotcha. I just thought that was known already from years ago.

JJ bedunked it way back in 2005 and each year since Darlton has again debunked it, often multiple times.

Naw Jacob said he brought them there so I assume he causes the storm.

I place my bets on island magic/jacob as well, natch. It must've boiled up super quick seeing how close the Black Rock was to the island and how sunny and clear it was previously.

 

[Darth Caedus]

Also loved the Jacob line: "I want them to do it themselves" (paraphrase). That fits in with the show and also adds to Jacob's "godness" as well.

 

[LOTRFan]

Question: Could have sworn the black rock was coming towardthe island during the morning in last season's finale, not a rain storm at night........

That immediately came to my mind as well, I suppose it was "another" boat?

 

[Michael Crawford]

Do the actions and demeanor of MiB scream "good guy"? murdering dozens of people, acting from a place of selfishness and personal gain. Really? I know Lost is all about twists but c'mon. Since so much of this show is Stephen King inspired, it would be like Randall Flagg from The Stand or Dark Tower becoming the good guy, it just doesn't wash. We are nearing the end and things must become clearer not more murky. The show is complicated enough for the average viewer, I don't think they're headed in an even muddier MiB is actually the good guy and hero direction.

The actions of Jacob are no different. Who was behind the deaths of all the Dharma folks? Currently it looks like Jacob. And saying Jacob doesn't lie? C'mon. You know the entire conversation about Hell was an outright lie. He manipulates people just like Smokey, and he hasn't shown any unwillingness to kill when it suited his purpose. I think the "Jacob is the good guy, Smokey is the bad" is just simply too black and white, literally. They both have agendas, and we have NO idea what those real agendas are yet. Much like Ben, they'll do good when they need to for their agenda, and they'll do bad for the same reason. From the outside, we try to pigeonhole them as good or bad, when i reality they are neither.What we currently know is that Smokey wants off the island, and Jacob doesn't want him off - why is still completely unclear. Both characters clearly believe the ends justifies the means, and they both believe they are right. We haven't seen anything in the behavior of Jacob to indicate that he's 'good', just that he believes his agenda is more 'right' than Smokeys.

Another way to look at it - we assume Jacob is somehow responsible for creating the situation that brings the candidates to the island. He said to Richard last night that he brought the ship. And yet the other people on the ship (or plane, or whatever, in multiple times - the 'others' in another context) are really unimportant to him. Yes, we've seen Smokey kill them - but have we ever seen Jacob attempt to intervene in any way? Of course not, since that's all part of the 'game'. He also shows little concern for the actual candidates beyond whether or not they fulfill his agenda.

You cite King - was Roland 'good' when he allowed Jake to die for his greater purpose of reaching the Tower? Or when he killed the entire town? He did it to fulfill his agenda, and I'd argue he didn't really become 'good' until much later in the books, when the humanity was returned to him with his relationship to the others that were drawn.

Now it can very well turn out that Jacob is the good guy and Smokey is the bad guy - but I don't think it will be that black and white.