LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

[Maglor]

From Lostpedia:

Spoiler

"The skeletons were separated in their first appearance in "House of the Rising Sun", but were shown placed side-by-side three years later in their second appearance in "Lighthouse". In "Across the Sea", we see Jacob placing the bodies side by side, which ties in with "Lighthouse" but still remains a considerable continuity error to "House of the Rising Sun"."

Source

I hope there is a reason given for this seeming "continuity error", otherwise I'm gonna be ticked.

 

[pixletwin]

I was right about

Spoiler

the boy being Jacob

.

But I was wrong about

Spoiler

the skeletons being Bernard and Rose.

 

[YoNoSe]

One of the fastest hours in television ever.

Spoiler

I think the function of the island changed when Jacob threw his brother into the light. It was no longer about protecting "the source." It became about keeping the smoke in.

Spoiler

I'm very interested to see if that is developed further. Although we are clearly meant to see Smokey as the villain after his maneuver last week, the fact remains he is only trying to do what he's always wanted - leave. Will they address why his leaving will be so catastrophic? After all, the fact that he is a monster isn't his doing, and he did not make the rules about the terms of him leaving the island.

 

[Entropy]

I was right about

Spoiler

the boy being Jacob

.

But I was wrong about

Spoiler

the skeletons being Bernard and Rose.

Ditto.

But I was also right about

Spoiler

Jacob and MiB being brothers and MiB murdering their mother.

 

[pixletwin]

Yeah I thought about you at that reveal.

 

[Entropy]

Very happy I was wrong about the

Spoiler

skeletons

What they came up with was much better!

 

[Maglor]

I was right about

Spoiler

the boy being Jacob

.

 

[Wor-Gar]

What if all of the characters on the island are meant to die?

What if it's the only way to bring balance to the universe?

What if it's the way that we'll get both the shock of seeing them die on the island and the satisfaction that they still live (in the sideways world)?

They keep showing us the redemption of the characters.

What if at the end of the series it's Jack and Locke sitting on the beach, having the same conversation that Jacob and MIB were having way back when? The whole "come full circle" idea, if you will.

What if I don't know what the heck I'm talking about?...

OMG -- mind-reader!

I've been saying all that to my fiance, and now she buys it because you said it too.

Further on that, I think the island world is the black rock and the sideways world is the white rock. Ben's character pretty much gave that away when you compare him in both universes.

Of course, isn't that just all too easy? Seen it comin' a mile away. Still, be satisfactory though if not real surprising.

 

[Lookin4Precious]

So many revelations... but BOY... SO many more questions!!! (P.S. I don't know how to put spoiler tags, and I really don't know why suddenly people feel the need to. if you're in this thread without having seen the new episode, you're looking to be spoiled... anyway, stop reading now if you don't want to be)

I think one of the greatest reveals in this episode (and one that brings with it the biggest questions) is that MIB died. They pulled the same switch with the MiB that they used on us with Locke. Locke was dead and it was the smoke monster instead!! Well turns out, who we thought the smoke monster was was dead as well, and that the smoke monster was just using his physical image! Amazing! The questions I have regarding this though is, why does the smoke monster seemingly still want the same things MiB did? Is Mib still in there, just "claimed"? And when did Jacob make these rules to keep him there, devise a list of candidates, etc etc? Arrghhh so much to think about

 

[Sidewinder]

So many revelations... but BOY... SO many more questions!!! (P.S. I don't know how to put spoiler tags, and I really don't know why suddenly people feel the need to. if you're in this thread without having seen the new episode, you're looking to be spoiled... anyway, stop reading now if you don't want to be)

I think one of the greatest reveals in this episode (and one that brings with it the biggest questions) is that MIB died. They pulled the same switch with the MiB that they used on us with Locke. Locke was dead and it was the smoke monster instead!! Well turns out, who we thought the smoke monster was was dead as well, and that the smoke monster was just using his physical image! Amazing! The questions I have regarding this though is, why does the smoke monster seemingly still want the same things MiB did? Is Mib still in there, just "claimed"? And when did Jacob make these rules to keep him there, devise a list of candidates, etc etc? Arrghhh so much to think about

You know I didn't even think of that. I thought MiB turned into the smoke monster, like his soul left his body and became the monster. It's not exactly clear right now. The smoke monster wants to leave the island, just as MiB did, but I don't know if it is MiB or it's just taken his form.

 

[FlyAndFight]

OMG -- mind-reader!

I've been saying all that to my fiance, and now she buys it because you said it too.

Further on that, I think the island world is the black rock and the sideways world is the white rock. Ben's character pretty much gave that away when you compare him in both universes.

Of course, isn't that just all too easy? Seen it comin' a mile away. Still, be satisfactory though if not real surprising.

Great minds think alike!!!

That is a great analogy regarding the rocks and the worlds!

Everyone seems to be better off in Sideways World (except for Sayid and Freckles...)

...I think one of the greatest reveals in this episode (and one that brings with it the biggest questions) is that MIB died. They pulled the same switch with the MiB that they used on us with Locke. Locke was dead and it was the smoke monster instead!! Well turns out, who we thought the smoke monster was was dead as well, and that the smoke monster was just using his physical image! Amazing!

Spoiler

You beat me to it. MIB is not Smokie. Smokie was apparently already in the light cave but MIB died when Jacob threw him into the creek and he banged his head on a rock. So MIB was already dead when he entered the "light cave" and must have released Smokie somehow.

I think Jacob will eventually enter the light cave and obtain "immortality", which is what the mother was preparing him for and which would allow him to protect the island indefinitely. I noticed that she had not aged in the 30 years that MIB had left for the other camp.

I have to admit that I was a little disappointed with last night's episode. With just 3 episodes left, I found the "revelations" rather forced. We got some OK answers regarding the skeletons, the stones and some history behind Jacob & MIB but nothing real "meaty" Or is it just that I'm expecting too much so close to the end? I don't know.

How is it that Jacob was able to leave the island and MIB or "Smokie" wasn't? Perhaps going back to my earlier guess, everyone needs to die on the island in order to continue living in the other world. Perhaps Jacob's death was the only way that he could go back in time and visit the "candidates" and nudge fate enough for them to all be on flight 815...

 

[Darth Waller]

It was nice to see some background on Jacob and the man in black, but was a whole episode necessary?

 

[Entropy]

I love how people are still over complicating this story with only 3.5 hours of it left.

 

[pixletwin]

I love how people are still over complicating this story with only 3.5 hours of it left.

It never even occured to me that MiB and Smokey are two different beings. I think you might be reading too much into it. However I have a feeling that this will be one of those questions they leave unanswered.

 

[Michael Crawford]

I haven't read through every one else's thoughts yet, so forgive me for duplication:

- I think it's pretty apparent now that neither Jacob or his brother are 'good' or 'evil'. They both have an agenda, and we are still unclear on which agenda is the one we should be rooting for. Instead, it's pretty clear that they are (as many have said over the last few years) very representative of faith vs science (or fact). So much so in this episode that Jacob was naive to the point of seeming 'slow'. There was also some nice God/Man stuff there, with Jacob clean and neat and Smokey filthy and rough, along with Smokey's comment on how he 'watches down from above but doesn't really know them'.

- is there a reason we still don't know Smokey's real name? Hmmm.

- and Smokey IS Jacob's brother still. They're not real mom said it wouldn't kill him to go into the light, but would be much worse than death. Smokey told Claire that Jacob had stole his humanity - he was transformed into something new by entering the light. And he still wants what he's always wanted - to just go home. Whatever was the essence of Jacob's brother is trapped in there now, and there is no possibility of death for him, unlike Jacob. He's trapped forever - I think that's what Jacob's not mom meant by it being worse than death.

- what I don't think will get answered, but what I think CAN be answered once the series is over and we rewatch it in it's entirety, is the whole relationship between Jacob, Smokey, Dharma and the Others. Who was aligned with who when and why they did what they did is going to be something to ponder upon a full rewatch - I can't wait!

- can we also get something out of the killing of their not mom that explains something of the killing of Jacob? It was the same knife, correct? But she clearly wanted to die, as she had found and appointed her successor. Jacob had not yet done so. It also seemed like it had to be Smokey that killed her - did it have to be Ben, and is there something special about who could weild the knife? Perhaps it merely needs to be a candidate, which clearly Smokey was, as was Ben. I suspect that's something we'll understand in the final three hours - I hope.

- For anyone that's read the Dark Tower series, it's now obvioius why Abrams and company had purchased the rights and then released them last week. It's not an adaptation of the story, but they used the concepts liberally, although it wasn't obvious until this season. Direct parelllels include:

- the 'light'/the rose
- the voices of the dead
- the significance of specific numbers and number patterns
- a group of people fated together for a specific purpose/ka-tet
- multiple worlds and timelines held together through a single point the island/the dark tower
- the use of magnetism as a key part of the relationship between the worlds
- the ability of certain people to move between these worlds under the right conditions
- the use of a specific object to move between the worlds: the wheelie dealie/the doors, especially the Unfound Door
- the dual memories causing issues for souls that have existed in both timelines at the same time

For those familiar with the books, I was thinking that perhaps there was some parellel between Smokey and Black Thirteen. Still thinking on that one though.

Great episode, and I like the way things are wrapping up. There's still some weirdness that I fear won't ever get answered that spanned multiple episodes and was key at points in the series (like the idea that babies couldn't be born on the island, although clearly Jacob and Smokey were), but I think other questions that might not SEEM answered really are, but you need to rewatch things for it to make sense. For example, it doesn't appear like we have any answer to why the injections were important...but perhaps when we rewatch the show it will become apparent that those taking the injections could not being influenced or 'read' by Smokey. Perhaps it's was a version of the 'sound barrier'...but that wasn't something that would have been obvious watching the show originally. Perhaps it's something else - but you get the idea.

 

[Shropt]

This episode pissed me off. How can they still be adding questions to the story. Where did the mother come from? What the hell is the light? Is MiB dead or is he smokey? Did the writers REALLY have the skeletons planned?

AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL...

How did the mother fill in a mine, kill 20 armed people and burn down their village all by herself?!?!

 

[Darth Waller]

This episode pissed me off. How can they still be adding questions to the story. Where did the mother come from? What the hell is the light? Is MiB dead or is he smokey? Did the writers REALLY have the skeletons planned?

AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL...

How did the mother fill in a mine, kill 20 armed people and burn down their village all by herself?!?!

(wow, we've got a lot of these types of smilies now)

 

[Michael Crawford]

This episode pissed me off. How can they still be adding questions to the story. Where did the mother come from? What the hell is the light? Is MiB dead or is he smokey? Did the writers REALLY have the skeletons planned?

AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL...

How did the mother fill in a mine, kill 20 armed people and burn down their village all by herself?!?!

I don't need to know where she came from - her line has always been and always will be. Like the knights guarding the Holy Grail, she is there to protect the light.

The light is all things beautiful - love, honesty, beauty, perfection - what you see is different for every person, but it's always beautiful. It is the thing that holds all the worlds together, the centerpiece of existence. Like gravity, it's real but we don't fully understand how it works, although magnetism is definitely a part of it. Like the not mom said - there's a little piece of it in every man, but they always want more. Perhaps that little piece is our soul, and the voices are the souls returned - it's why Smokey could see dead people before, and why he can alter himself into them after.

Jacob's brother is Smokey. So is the light, now. Or at least the beast is some sort of combination of the two.

And the last question is easiest of all - with the help of the island. Yea, I don't exactly know what that means either, but it's the same way she made the boat crash (A storm? Yea, we've heard that before), and as guardian it's clear she can command the power of the island in some ways, whatever that might mean. Smokey might be the spliced version of that power, but it was there before he was created. If she (and others like Jacob) can change the weather around the island (or the island does it) to bring in the candidates, certainly it can collapse the mine.

As to the people - she poisoned them. Hey, when a tool works, you use it more than once.

At least, that's what I got out of the episode.

 

[Maglor]

- and Smokey IS Jacob's brother still. They're not real mom said it wouldn't kill him to go into the light, but would be much worse than death. Smokey told Claire that Jacob had stole his humanity - he was transformed into something new by entering the light. And he still wants what he's always wanted - to just go home. Whatever was the essence of Jacob's brother is trapped in there now, and there is no possibility of death for him, unlike Jacob. He's trapped forever - I think that's what Jacob's not mom meant by it being worse than death.

Frankly I'm surprised that anybody got anything other than this out of it. You could add that their not mom said that they would be unable to kill each other.

- what I don't think will get answered, but what I think CAN be answered once the series is over and we rewatch it in it's entirety, is the whole relationship between Jacob, Smokey, Dharma and the Others. Who was aligned with who when and why they did what they did is going to be something to ponder upon a full rewatch - I can't wait!

...Great episode, and I like the way things are wrapping up. There's still some weirdness that I fear won't ever get answered that spanned multiple episodes and was key at points in the series (like the idea that babies couldn't be born on the island, although clearly Jacob and Smokey were), but I think other questions that might not SEEM answered really are, but you need to rewatch things for it to make sense...

I loved the episode too. And I agree that a lot of what we worry will not be answered already has.

Can't wait for the bluray re-watch!

 

[Entropy]

So scenes we still have left are...

Jacob seeing his brother again now transformed as Smokey.

Jacob (via Hurley?) mutters the incantation and someone accepts the role as the new caretaker.

Widdy, his crew, Ben, Richard, Miles, etc. dying.

And somewhere along the way the realization of the sideways world 815ers, or at least Jack, about their Island lives and some sort of action/choice there. More Ellie there with answers no doubt.


So if smokey leaves the island, now that he got flushed down the magic island toilet and his "life force" or whatever is tied to the Island, the "source" light goes out and thus the light in everything goes out and the world dies. But that's MiB plan because he wants to die and can't now that he's become Smokey and if it means killing the world so that he can be "free" he's ok with that.