Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

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Are you referring to Devin? Because I've known him for almost 15 years and I'm partly responsible for him getting into the movie blogging world in the first place. So if your opinion on film has really changed because of him that would be very, very weird. :lol

He meant the Hulk dude.

Celtic's secretary out. :lol
 
The rest can be found here https://badassdigest.com/2013/07/03/film-crit-hulk-man-of-steel/

Here's an excerpt:



INTRO #3

HULK HAS SPENT THE LAST FEW WEEKS THINKING, READING AND LISTENING.

YOU SEE, HULK WENT AND SAW MAN OF STEEL'S OPENING MIDNIGHT SHOW WITH AN EXCITED AUDIENCE AND, WELL, HULK THOUGHT IT WAS NOT SO GOOD. SURE, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S GOOD STUFF IN THERE, BUT IF WE ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT IT ON THE PUREST STORY LEVEL (AKA THE MOST IMPORTANT PART), HULK THOUGHT IT FAILED SO SPECTACULARLY. AFTER THE CREDITS ROLLED HULK JUST SAT THERE WITH BETTY FOR A MOMENT AS WE STARED IN BEWILDERMENT AT EVERYONE ELSE. HALF THE AUDIENCE WAS TALKING EXCITEDLY. THE OTHER HALF WAS YELLING ANGRILY. THEN WE WENT OUTSIDE AND TALKED WITH SOME OF HULK'S INDUSTRY FRIENDS AND EVERYONE WAS IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT AS TO THE NOT-SO-GOODNESS OF THE FILM. IT ACTUALLY GOT PRETTY HEATED. BUT THEN HULK DID THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ONE CAN DO AT A MOMENT LIKE THAT AND THAT IS HULK TRIED TO SUBVERT THE INCLINATION TOWARD FEELING "THIS IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE CONCLUSION!" SO HULK WENT HOME AND STARTED READING OTHER CRITICS AND FRIENDS WHO PRAISED IT. THE REASON FOR DOING SO ISN'T JUST ABOUT THE HUMANE "NEVER HATE A MOVIE" MANTRA, NOR IS IT EXPRESSLY ABOUT THE ETHICS OF WANTING TO HARSH SOMEONE'S BUZZ. IT'S ABOUT THE PROCESS OF COMING TO GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW MOVIES AFFECT PEOPLE.

SEE THE THING ABOUT BEING A STORY DIAGNOSTICIAN, UNLIKE A CRITIC, IS THE JOB DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU THINK AND REFLECT THE EXPERIENCE FOR YOURSELF (THEREBY ASSUMING YOUR VOICE IS JUST LENDING TO THE PLURALITY OF GREATER CONSENSUS). INSTEAD, THE JOB IS TO ACTIVELY TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT EVERYONE ELSE WILL THINK AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHY THEY THINK IT. WE DO NOT DO THIS BECAUSE THEIR OPINION IS INHERENTLY "RIGHT" (WE'LL GET TO THAT NEXT), BUT BECAUSE THEIR OPINIONS (EVEN POORLY FORMED ONES) WILL HELP YOU UNDERSTAND HOW MOVIES WORK ON A MACRO LEVEL, FAR OUTSIDE YOUR OWN MYOPIA. YOUR JOB IS NOT TO ADHERE TO EVERYONE'S SPECIFIC WANTS, BUT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT STORY CHOICES ARE SECRETLY AFFECTING PEOPLE, MAYBE WITHOUT THEIR REALIZING IT. AND THAT REALLY MEANS YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO HOW PEOPLE TALK AND WHAT THEIR MOTIVATIONS WERE. YOU HAVE TO ASK THE POINTED QUESTIONS: DID THIS WORK FOR YOU? WHY DID IT WORK FOR YOU? HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THE FAULTS? HOW DID YOU FEEL THE FILM OVERCAME THOSE FAULTS? WHAT DO YOU WANT OUT OF THIS MOVIE? HOW COULD IT HAVE WORKED BETTER FOR YOU? HOW COULD IT HAVE WORKED FOR US BOTH? AND THEN YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO TAKE YOUR TIME WITH IT AND MEDITATE ON THOSE ANSWERS, FOR IMMEDIACY BREEDS SINGULARITY. YOU HAVE TO FORCE YOURSELF TO BE OPEN AND CONSTANTLY CURIOUS, FOR THIS PROCESS HAS TO BE TREATED AS AN ONGOING SCHOLARLY ONE. A STORY DIAGNOSTICIAN HAS TO BE THE ETERNAL STUDENT.

AND IN ALL THAT TIME HULK REALIZED WHAT MANY OTHERS REALIZED AFTER THEIR INITIAL SCREENING: THAT MAN OF STEEL MIGHT BE ONE OF THE MOST DIVISIVE BLOCKBUSTERS IN RECENT MEMORY. SOME OF THIS IS DUE TO STRICT ISSUES OF PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION AND HISTORY WITH THE EXTREMELY POPULAR CHARACTER OF SUPERMAN, BUT THE DIVISION WAS JUST AS EVENLY SPLIT EVEN AMONG THE NON-RABID, NORMAL CINEMA-GOERS AS WELL. SO WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED? WHY IS THE MOVIE CAUSING SUCH A SPLIT? WHY DO ALL THE OPINIONS SEEM TO BE SO VARIED? WELL, AFTER ALL THAT THINKING, READING AND LISTENING, HULK HAS REALIZED ONE UNIFYING THING:

MAN OF STEEL REVEALS A WHOLE BUNCH ABOUT HOW WE WATCH MOVIES.

AND SOME OF IT ISN'T GOOD.

Well, I haven't finished yet, but here's something that stood out to me:

PERTINENT QUESTION #1:

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUPERMAN / CLARK WHEN HE MAKES HIS FINAL CHOICE TO SAVE THE FAMILY FROM ZOD'S HEAT VISION VERSUS WHO HE WAS WHEN DECIDES TO SAVE THE SCHOOL BUS AS A KID?

THE HONEST ANSWER IS THAT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. NOT REALLY. FOR ALL THE MORAL RESERVATION ABOUT "WHAT TO DO" THAT HE TALKS ABOUT AT TIMES, CLARK IS THE SAME EXACT GUY PRETTY MUCH DOING THE SAME EXACT THING FOR THE ENTIRE MOVIE. JUST BECAUSE WE SEE HIS LITERAL BIRTH VS. HIM WHEN HE'S OLDER DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN WE SEE CHARACTER GROWTH. HE IS ALWAYS THE SAME PERSON TO US. MORE IMPORTANTLY, HE IS MAKING THE SAME EXACT CHOICE OVER AND OVER AGAIN AT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. SURE, HE SAYS HE FEELS CONFLICTED ABOUT IT SOMETIMES, BUT HE DOES NOT ACTUALLY WAFFLE, NOR DO ANYTHING THAT IMPLIES THAT HE IS WAFFLING, NOR DO ANY EVENTS SEEM TO AFFECT HIS DIRECTION AFTERWARD, NOR DOES HE REALLY CHANGE AS A RESULT... HE SIMPLY IS.

WE CALL THIS "NOT HAVING A ****ING CHARACTER ARC" AND IT IS A SURE-FIRE SIGN OF INERT WRITING. NOW, ALL THIS MIGHT STRIKE YOU AS WRONG AND YOU MIGHT ARGUE THAT HE TOTALLY HAS A CHARACTER ARC, BUT YOUR DEFINITION WOULD HAVE TO BE CENTERED AROUND "THE LEVEL" OF THE THINGS HE DOES, NOT WHO HE IS. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING LIKE: "His arc is first is lifting buses and then he put on a suit and lifted heavier things and then he graduates to punching the biggest things!!!" WHEN YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT YOU ARE MISUNDERSTANDING A CORE PRINCIPAL: A CHARACTER ARC IS BASED ON A CHANGE IN ETHOS, NOT A CHANGE IN SCALE (THIS IS ALSO WHY HULK HATES WHEN MOST STORY MODELS USE THE TERM "RISE IN CONFLICT" INSTEAD OF "CHANGE IN CONFLICT" WHICH IS WAY MORE HELPFUL). IT'S LIKE WE HAVE SUDDENLY SWITCHED TO USING A VIDEO GAME BASED LEVELING-UP SYSTEM OF CHARACTERIZATION ("Sweet! Superman just got +1 to flight!"). EVEN THIS WOULD BE FINE IF IT WAS ACCOMPANIED BY, YOU KNOW, ACTUAL GROWTH AND CHANGE, BUT SO OFTEN IT IS NOT.

WHICH LEADS US TO AN WHAT HULK FINDS TO BE AN IRREFUTABLE CONCLUSION: THE FILMMAKERS MUST HAVE THOUGHT THIS WAS A CHARACTER ARC... OR THEY DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER. MAYBE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS GROWTH BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN SCALE, BUT IN REALITY THEY JUST CREATED A SISYPHEAN PLOT EXERCISE OF SUPERMAN SAVING PEOPLE AND PUNCHING THINGS. WHAT MAKES THAT REALITY FEEL SO BIPOLAR IS THE MOVIE IS CONSTANTLY THROWING SCENES AT US WHERE CLARK SEEMS CONFLICTED ABOUT HIS CHOICES. THIS ONLY GIVES US THE ILLUSION OF CHANGE. THE ILLUSION OF CONFLICT. THE ILLUSION OF CHARACTERIZATION. HOW CAN IT BE REAL WHEN WE'VE NEVER REALLY BEEN GIVEN A DRAMATIC JUSTIFICATION THAT ACTUALLY MADE SENSE?

I'm clearly not versed in story-telling and movies as this dude, but to me the entire point was not whether Clark/Superman was inclined to save people, but rather his fear of being rejected/persecuted for who/what he is (instilled by pa Kent). He slowly and painfully learned to master his awesome powers and abilities, feeling rejected for being a "freak", yet he always has the sense of doing good and saving people. It was only pa Kent's advice and his fear of rejection that made him keep his powers secret and (presumably) not help more.
The entire point is how he overcomes this fear and steps up to his role.

But maybe that's just me...

Will read on.
 
:lecture

Absolutely. In what little I read of this "Hulk" piece I gleaned that it was one of those tired arguments where someone is casting aspersions on why those with differing views on a movie feel the way they do and attempting to frame it all as an objective, factual analysis, when in fact it's just more subjective opinion. Pish-posh.

Yep. I'm always leery of lumping all "blockbusters" together, etc. At the very least I don't think you can lump Zack Snyder's movies into the same category as other summer blockbuster -- love him or hate him his movies always have a definitive point of view and he's brave enough to try stuff no one else will.

And, say what you will about Man Of Steel, this was not a movie that took ones appreciation for the character for granted. It was all about who Clark was and tried to explore him in new ways. Like it or hate it, it was all about defining character through action. I couldn't get through much of the Hulk Crit essay either but this assumption turned me off pretty early on.
 
Also interesting to consider that Gore Verbinski and Guillermo Del Toro were also considered for directing Man of Steel at one point and now they both have films out at about the same time.
 
I'm clearly not versed in story-telling and movies as this dude, but to me the entire point was not whether Clark/Superman was inclined to save people, but rather his fear of being rejected/persecuted for who/what he is (instilled by pa Kent). He slowly and painfully learned to master his awesome powers and abilities, feeling rejected for being a "freak", yet he always has the sense of doing good and saving people. It was only pa Kent's advice and his fear of rejection that made him keep his powers secret and (presumably) not help more.
The entire point is how he overcomes this fear and steps up to his role.

But maybe that's just me...

Will read on.

Totally.

I think critics get fouled up when they try to consider what they think of what Superman should be vs. the questions the film is trying to pose.

Ultimately, Clark chooses to "stand before the human race" proudly and does put himself in their hands. And best of all, he doesn't let the military's decision to hand him over shake his faith.

One of my favorite moments in the movie is just as the Kryptonians are about to arrive, Clark takes Lois' hand. To me this is not necessarily a romantic moment... this was Clark acknowledging the hope she had given him. There were good people out there, great people who could be trusted and that he could put his trust in.

Going further, Clark chooses to destroy the Genesis chamber... completely. Choosing earth and his new family over his heritage. He chooses time and time again and in those decisions we see his character emerge rather than him telling us who he is or what he believes in.
 
I wasn't really a huge fan of how the final fight seemingly destroyed the entire city of Metropolis. Considering how likely hundreds (thousands?) of people died in all those buildings that collapsed in the fight, it was a bit silly that Supes got all bent out of shape about Zod zapping that family.

Speaking of, why couldn't Supes just put his hands over Zod's eyes?? Does heat vision penetrate super-skin?
 
I wasn't really a huge fan of how the final fight seemingly destroyed the entire city of Metropolis. Considering how likely hundreds (thousands?) of people died in all those buildings that collapsed in the fight, it was a bit silly that Supes got all bent out of shape about Zod zapping that family.

Speaking of, why couldn't Supes just put his hands over Zod's eyes?? Does heat vision penetrate super-skin?

The collapsed building that had fire coming out all the windows when they pounded each other through it? The parking garage that Zod hit with the trailer that didn't show anyone in it? The implosion from im pact that broke a section off one building that didn't collapse? Even the end scene, everyone was conveniently placed to sidestep any rubble that rolled their way. This has been discussed repeatedly, in my three viewings I didn't see "all these buildings destroyed". What country are you seeing this version of MoS? :lol

Or is it really that hard to remember acurately what happened in a movie after reading the hype train of people saying, "OMG the damage its horrible"

As far as heat vision, Zod sure didn't jump in front of it when Supes started cutting up his ship with it, did he?
 
Are you referring to Devin? Because I've known him for almost 15 years and I'm partly responsible for him getting into the movie blogging world in the first place. So if your opinion on film has really changed because of him that would be very, very weird. :lol

Hulk. And I wasn't talking about my opinion on this film. That never changed. I meant in general. Why I changed my views on film. Hulk showed me the light, and I never looked back.
 
Or is it really that hard to remember acurately what happened in a movie after reading the hype train of people saying, "OMG the damage its horrible"

I didn't read the thread. I've been staying away from all the discussion as to remain spoiler free. I just remember Lois and Perry standing there after the fight and the background looked like a nuclear bomb had gone off. . . the city looked like it had been reduced to rubble.

:dunno

I didn't hate the movie, it was enjoyable, I'm just saying. . . I would think in the inevitable sequel, the American Public would need to address the fact that if Superman indirectly/directly destroyed an entire city.

This isn't like The Avengers when an invading alien army attacked the city. This was Superman and Zod tossing each other around into buildings. The Avenegers actively tried to maintain the damage (Iron Man flying the bomb into space, Captain America directing the cops) whereas Superman just kinda tore **** up, Superman grabbing Zod and crashing him into buildings. For someone who was trying to earn the public's trust, I can't imagine the damage that was caused will do much to help that.
 
Hey, we all got to learn some how. Character **** is very important. Whenever I write, I have Hulk and RLM as my shoulder angles, yelling at me when ever I write something stoopid. :lol

But for the record, this article just came out. So it's not like I stole my opinion for this movie.


Also, I need that extended cut to come out now, so that I might be able to stop hating this movie.
 
Synders Extended cuts have tended to worsen rather than improve his movies. Watchmen and Sucker Punch being two prime examples. Some of the cheesy ****e in the Ultimate Cut of Watchmen is just awful.
 
The Director's Cut of WATCHMEN is great. The only additional scene I don't like is Rorschach vs the cops in Blake's apartment. I find that silly, out of place, and completely unnecessary. But that wasn't in the comic anyway, so there's no wonder why it sticks out like a sore thumb. Everything else makes the movie better and more in line with the book. Hollis' death scene is incredible.

The "Ultimate Cut" just adds the animated Black Freighter with the additional bookend sequences at Berne's newsstand. It's a decent effort, but only shows how integrating Black Freighter in a movie was never going to work and that kind of stuff was designed to work within a comic book and nothing else.

I don't like the ending of the SUCKER PUNCH Extended Edition. Neither does Zack, which is why he cut it out and re-wrote a lot of that after putting the first edit of the film together. But he's big on alternate cuts and sharing them with fans.
 
I loved the Theatrical Cut of Watchmen, saw it 3 times in the theaters.

But once I saw that Extended Cut, I never looked back. I agree about the Cop opening. Not a fan. But I love everything else. My only complaint about that movie is I wish there was more of Laurie and Blake to get a better grasp of their characters. Like the party scene. Or just more moments between them.

Didn't ruin the film for me, but that's my biggest complaint.
 
That stuff (more character scenes) would have made it less like WATCHMEN, though. The book was never really earnest, and keeps some of the characters (Blake, in particular) at arms' length, forcing the reader to focus on the whole story first and turn start piecing things together by breaking down elements and connecting the dots. It's never too linear and often doesn't make a lot of obvious sense on the surface, but when you start analyzing it and figure out how all of the pieces fit together it's, "holy ****". Kind of like how Dr. Manhattan sees the world.

They could have added the black tie party scene, but I really doubt that would have added anything to the Laurie and Comedian dynamic that isn't already there.
 
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