Marvel Studios/Sony - SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING

[pturtle]

X2 and First Class both have the same score on RT, so you can say X2 is better, but the popular opinion says otherwise.




I like DOFP and Logan, so I have no problem with that, but we had to endure some awful films to get two good films.

All I'm saying, they could have continued the First Class story with the new cast instead of skipping a decade with each sequel for no reason and including pointless Jackman cameos...







X1 is a Wolverine film with awful action. The X-Men "team" was just Jean, a lame ass Cyclops, and Storm going up against an old depowered Magneto.

Not exactly the ideal X MEN film, but good enough because it was that or nothing at a time when superhero films weren't popular.

Nowadays, they could do much better with accurate costumes being the cheery on top.



I get that, but Fox can do it too, if they ever move away from Singer's style.

It's unfair to judge older movies with newer ones. X2 came out at a time when 90% of these nerds weren't RT certified. If X2 came out today, it would be over a 90% fresh easily.

I don't think any studio is batting 100. Each studio has given us awful movies, enduring bad films is part of the process

X1 is a product of it's time, the action, costumes and team worked for that movie, sure, now a lot of it is dated but isn't that the same with any older film? Release Star Wars today and people will be saying the digital effects suck.

X1 was a great step in getting us that ideal X-Men film, which was X2. X1 had about the same amount of superheroes teaming up together to fight as Avengers did, except they were fighting against worthy villains unlike the Avengers.

Well Singer gave us comic accurate suits at the end of Apocalypse, and I thought everyone looked stupid in motion. Ironically that's the worse X-Men film he's directed

 

[pturtle]

But Iron Man, Hulk, Cap, Thor, and two humans are the Avengers with Loki being their first big villain.

Who are the X-Men films? Wolverine the part timer who somehow is the unofficial leader and an ever changing roster of backup characters.

I get why they did it, the films have to focus on a character, so they picked the most popular, Wolvie.

MCU gave certain character their own films first, then put them together as a team, and it works too.

GOTG didn't even do that, and it felt more like a legitimate team than ANY of the Fox Men rosters, which is the one thing that they never captured , imo.

The X Men are a dysfunctional family of weirdos, and I kind of felt that at the end of DOFP, but of course, we'll never get a film with that full "family" as a team.

And the X-Men are Professor X Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm, and Jean. Wolverine was an X-Man in X1 which is why he had a costume. Sure Wolverine is the main character, but so is Iron Man in The Avengers, and Star-lord in Guardians. Somehow Iron Man who was as last minute decision to be apart of the team is the unofficial leader. Having a movie doesn't change that, Cap, Thor and Hawkeye got the shaft in The Avengers.

The end of DOFP gave you that feeling? Not the end of X2? That's strange.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

X1 being called Wolverine's movie is debatable. It could easily be argued that it's Rogue's movie.

Wasn't she kewl. The way she...

Anyway, in X2 she had that white stripe on the hair and she...

Remember in X3 when she...

Well, in DOFP she....got cut from the film...

Hmm...

 

[pturtle]

Was Rogue cool? No, was she a better character with some depth and important to the story than say...Black Widow? Yup

But hey, at least BW is cool right? Those Rey mysterio moves and badass one-liners are great

Rogue was one of the most important characters in the first 3 films because through her character we see the fear self loathing and discrimination that mutants deal with because of their powers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

And the X-Men are Professor X Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm, and Jean. Wolverine was an X-Man in X1 which is why he had a costume. Sure Wolverine is the main character, but so is Iron Man in The Avengers, and Star-lord in Guardians. Somehow Iron Man who was as last minute decision to be apart of the team is the unofficial leader. Having a movie doesn't change that, Cap, Thor and Hawkeye got the shaft in The Avengers.

The end of DOFP gave you that feeling? Not the end of X2? That's strange.

I think the Avengers and the GOTG feel more like a legitimate team....although I don't like the whole going their separate ways at the end of Avengers.

Depending on the X Men film, it just feels like a Wolverine movie or in the case of FC, a Xavier/Magneto film. Then you have a bunch of poorly developed characters like Storm, Jean, Cyclops, Colossus, Kitty, Ice Man...and the list goes on and on.

Tony Stark is the biggest start in Avengers, but Cap was the official leader, ended up being right about Loki's plan, and had some moments. Thor's role is smaller, but the main villain was directly connected to him and again, he was given so moments to shine. Same goes for Hulk, and the other worthless characters. The fact that they had their own films first helped.

GOTG has a main character in Starlord, but by the third act you buy them as a group of friends, and they all get enough screen time and even enough of a background or connection to the villains for us to care about them.

Do I care about Storm, Jean, Cyclops, Ice Man, Beast, or anyone not named Wolverine? I'm not sure. Maybe Xavier or Magneto. Rogue is pointless after X1...

 

[DiFabio]

Wasn't she kewl. The way she...

Anyway, in X2 she had that white stripe on the hair and she...

Remember in X3 when she...

Well, in DOFP she....got cut from the film...

Hmm...

What are you going on about?

Rogue is the crux of the first X-Men. There's a whole theme of alienation that Rogue in that movie personifies. Magneto and Rogue's mutations "origins" are first shown intentionally because they're the key characters in the film. After the senate hearing, you follow Rogue and Magneto. Rogue gets the audience to Wolverine. Rogue gets the audience to the X-Men. The twist is that Magneto needs Rogue, not Wolverine. Etc. etc. It's not Wolverine's show. Rogue plays a huge part in the story. Senator Kelly plays a huge part in the story. The Brotherhood plays a huge part in the story. If anything, Wolverine is the audience.

And other than Halle Berry, I don't see why people are so hard on the first X-Men. It's perfectly fine. The opening, the themes it lays out, the plot, the balance of characters. It's a good movie and a nice introduction until you get to the good stuff (X-Men 2). I consider X-Men 2000 and Spider-Man 2002 stepping stones where the superior sequels built off those first films. Yeah, the action is weak to today's standards, but then again, so is the action in Superman: The Movie, Batman, Batman Begins, Iron Man, Captain America: First Avenger etc. And compared to the crazy, CGI action we get now in Age of Ultron, Civil War, BvS and Justice League, maybe mediocre action is better.

The only one that got the short end of the stick was James Marsden as Cyclops. If they built him up a little more, the movies would have been perfect. What would the MCU do anyway? They'd most likely make Cyclops the equivalence of Captain America with Wolverine being Iron Man. It's been done. If the X1, X2 and DOFP aren't people's bags, well, they have First Class and Age of Apocalypse for their team needs.

 

[pturtle]

I think the Avengers and the GOTG feel more like a legitimate team....although I don't like the whole going their separate ways at the end of Avengers.

Depending on the X Men film, it just feels like a Wolverine movie or in the case of FC, a Xavier/Magneto film. Then you have a bunch of poorly developed characters like Storm, Jean, Cyclops, Colossus, Kitty, Ice Man...and the list goes on and on.

Tony Stark is the biggest start in Avengers, but Cap was the official leader, ended up being right about Loki's plan, and had some moments. Thor's role is smaller, but the main villain was directly connected to him and again, he was given so moments to shine. Same goes for Hulk, and the other worthless characters.

GOTG has a main character in Starlord, but by the third act you buy them as a group of friends, and they are all get enough screen time and even enough of a background or connection to the villains for us to care about them.

Do I care about Storm, Jean, Cyclops, Ice Man, Beast, or anyone not named Wolverine? I'm not sure.

From what I remember, Cap was only leader because Iron Man allowed him to be at the end of the film. Before that, it was nothing arguments and bickering between all of them. Cap only really does on thing as leader, you can say the same for Cyclops at the end of X1 when he takes the shot at Magneto.

I can understand you not caring about them, some of them weren't fleshed out well, or had enough screen time, but that's because they didn't have the luxury of having their own films, and unlike Misney, The FoX-Men films tend to out a good amount of emphasis on their villains, something the MCU is lacking.

Jean, Wolverine, Professor X, Nightcrawler, Beast (Kelsey Grammer), QuickSilver And Rogue are well developed characters that are fleshed out and are important to the stories. If you don't like them it could just be a matter of taste, the same way I don't care about Widow, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Falcon, Warmachine etc...

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

What are you going on about?

Rogue is the crux of the first X-Men. There's a whole theme of alienation that Rogue in that movie personifies. Magneto and Rogue's mutations "origins" are first shown intentionally because they're the key characters in the film. After the senate hearing, you follow Rogue and Magneto. Rogue gets the audience to Wolverine. Rogue gets the audience to the X-Men. The twist is that Magneto needs Rogue, not Wolverine. Etc. etc. It's not Wolverine's show. Rogue plays a huge part in the story. Senator Kelly plays a huge part in the story. The Brotherhood plays a huge part in the story. If anything, Wolverine is the audience.

And other than Halle Berry, I don't see why people are so hard on the first X-Men. It's perfectly fine. The opening, the themes it lays out, the plot, the balance of characters. It's a good movie and a nice introduction until you get to the good stuff (X-Men 2). I consider X-Men 2000 and Spider-Man 2002 stepping stones where the superior sequels built off those first films. Yeah, the action is weak to today's standards, but then again, so is the action in Superman: The Movie, Batman, Batman Begins, etc. And compared to the crazy, CGI action we get now in Age of Ultron, Civil War, BvS and Justice League, maybe mediocre action is better.

The only one that got the short end of the stick was James Marsden as Cyclops. If they built him up a little more, the movies would have been perfect. What would the MCU do anyway? They'd most likely make him like Captain America with Wolverine being Iron Man. It's been done. If the X1, X2 and DOFP aren't people's bags, well, they have First Class and Age of Apocalypse for their team needs.

Rogue is fine as a damsel in distress in X1. It's her purpose to be there and show us how super heroic and badass Wolverine really is by the end of the film.

Then, she disappears in the sequels because she's garbage. She can go suck Bobby's frozen popsicle for all I care.

 

[pturtle]

What are you going on about?

Rogue is the crux of the first X-Men. There's a whole theme of alienation that Rogue in that movie personifies. Magneto and Rogue's mutations "origins" are first shown intentionally because they're the key characters in the film. After the senate hearing, you follow Rogue and Magneto. Rogue gets the audience to Wolverine. Rogue gets the audience to the X-Men. The twist is that Magneto needs Rogue, not Wolverine. Etc. etc. It's not Wolverine's show. Rogue plays a huge part in the story. Senator Kelly plays a huge part in the story. The Brotherhood plays a huge part in the story. If anything, Wolverine is the audience.

And other than Halle Berry, I don't see why people are so hard on the first X-Men. It's perfectly fine. The opening, the themes it lays out, the plot, the balance of characters. It's a good movie and a nice introduction until you get to the good stuff (X-Men 2). I consider X-Men 2000 and Spider-Man 2002 stepping stones where the superior sequels built off those first films. Yeah, the action is weak to today's standards, but then again, so is the action in Superman: The Movie, Batman, Batman Begins, Iron Man, Captain America: First Avenger etc. And compared to the crazy, CGI action we get now in Age of Ultron, Civil War, BvS and Justice League, maybe mediocre action is better.

The only one that got the short end of the stick was James Marsden as Cyclops. If they built him up a little more, the movies would have been perfect. What would the MCU do anyway? They'd most likely make Cyclops the equivalence of Captain America with Wolverine being Iron Man. It's been done. If the X1, X2 and DOFP aren't people's bags, well, they have First Class and Age of Apocalypse for their team needs.

Pretty much.

I've been arguing this here for a while, a lot people associate a great character with action scenes. Anna Paquin was great as that version of Rogue, because she's doesn't fly and make out with Gambit shouldnt overlook how important she is to the story or her performance. It's my problem with a lot of the comic fans because they can't see past the source material to judge things for exactly what they are.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

From what I remember, Cap was only leader because Iron Man allowed him to be at the end of the film. Before that, it was nothing arguments and bickering between all of them. Cap only really does on thing as leader, you can say the same for Cyclops at the end of X1 when he takes the shot at Magneto.

Yes, they fight a lot, like a dysfunctional family...like the X Men.

Tony realized that Cap was right, so he puts his huge and well developed ego that we saw in several films aside, and yes, he lets Cap be in charge in the third act.

Cyclops took a shot because Wolvie can't do it

I can understand you not caring about them, some of them weren't fleshed out well, or had enough screen time, but that's because they didn't have the luxury of having their own films, and unlike Misney, The FoX-Men films tend to out a good amount of emphasis on their villains, something the MCU is lacking.

Yeah, you have to take the good with the bad I suppose.

 

[pturtle]

Yes, they fight a lot, like a dysfunctional family...like the X Men.

Tony realized that Cap was right, so he puts his huge and well developed ego that we saw in several films aside, and yes, he lets Cap be in charge in the third act.

Cyclops took a shot because Wolvie can't do it



Yeah, you have to take the good with the bad I suppose.

And yet, Cap being leader never felt natural. When he leads it felt forced. Why would Hulk and especially Thor take orders from him? Thor is a freaking god

The animosity between Cyclops and Wolvey felt much more real to me, it's just a shame we never got to see it play out all the way through 3 films.

He took the shot to save Wolvie though, it was his plan and because of it they save the world

 

[DiFabio]

Rogue is fine as a damsel in distress in X1. It's her purpose to be there and show us how super heroic and badass Wolverine really is by the end of the film.

That's a touching scene up in the statue of liberty where you think she's dead and he takes off his gloves and saves her.

And the end of the film? It's that brilliant scene where Xavier and Erik are playing chess in the plastic prison. A bookend to the beginning of the film with the "we are the future Charles, not them" scene. Nothing to do with Wolverine.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

And yet, Cap being leader never felt natural. When he leads it felt forced. Why would Hulk and especially Thor take orders from him? Thor is a freaking god

Probably because of the awful costume. Thor and Hulk probably felt sorry for him, wouldn't you?

But seriously, Bruce Banner and Cap got along from the very beginning and they had mutual respect for each other.

Cap stopped the fight between Thor and Tony, even stopped Thor's Hammer, so I'm pretty sure that impressed Thor.

The animosity between Cyclops and Wolvey felt much more real to me, it's just a shame we never got to see it play out all the way through 3 films.

Yeah, they could have done that in X3 since Jean was such an important character in that film, but they killed him for no real reason, other than to make the roster smaller to focus on the new characters.

He took the shot to save Wolvie though, it was his plan and because of it they save the world

See, I don't care.

All I remember is Wolverine saving fake Rogue and risking his life like a true hero while Magneto was taking a nap because of his advanced age.

That's a touching scene up in the statue of liberty where you think she's dead and he takes off his gloves and saves her.

And the end of the film? It's that brilliant scene where Xavier and Erik are playing chess in the plastic prison. A bookend to the beginning of the film with the "we are the future Charles, not them" scene. Nothing to do with Wolverine.

It was a good ending. I love the plastic prison, the dialogue, the acting, and the chess game.

Wolverine got one last shirtless scene with Jean, said goodbye to Rogue, and stole Cyclops' bike. That's like 3 endings a la LOTR Return of the King

 

[ironwez20]

Only one member of the team died (I think he died), and it's an entire movie of X-Men vs Brotherhood why do we need more of that? That's like saying we need to see another Spider-Man movie with him fighting Green Goblin even though that's already happened and GG dies at the end



That sounds fun, but the movie still wouldn't have been as good as X2, and had they gone full reboot we would have never got the fantastic DOFP or Logan. Ironically Apocalypse gave us a final act with all the X-Men teaming up using their powers and the movie was pretty darn horrible. X-Men work best when they explore profound themes and aren't in colorful costumes



Almost every FoX-Men film already showed us mutants in society, the prejudices they deal with and how they handle it. In all honesty, it sounds like you just want to see more of the same, just in colorful costumes and maybe a Hulk cameo?

X1: X-Men vs Brotherhood

X2: X-Men vs Government/Stryker

X3: X-Men vs Phoenix and Brotherhood

First Class: X-Men vs Hellfire Club

DOFP: X-Men vs Sentinels

Apocalypse: X-Men vs Apocalypse and his horsemen

Where is all this fighting each other coming from?

Uh what ?when did I say I want colorful costumes and a hulk cameo ? Just cause I don't like those silly dated black suits doesn't mean I want colorful ones.

Also yea each movie they are fighting an xmen that is supposed to be in there roster. Well almost each movie.

 

[Veil1]

Hey Guys, what's going on? Oh another X-men vs Avengers movie arguement?

 

[jye4ever]

It's not silly for these characters to go back to the MCU we already had 17 years worth of Fox XM movies and now they're just spinning their wheels because the license doesn't allow for anymore story growth.

XM Phoenix Rage whatever its going to be called is going to be the same **** again!

Doesn't matter the good to bad ratio of movies at each individual studios it's time to allow Marvel to bring the XM and FF home so that the movies can expand deep into far reaching character interactions.

All these studios having small pieces of the license needs to end.

Who cares if Marvel went bankrupt and was saved by the parting out of their characters that was the past they're healthy now so let them buy their characters back.

Except Deadpool, keep his lame ass character at Fox lol. Oh look i'm speaking to the audience just like Ferris Bueller ughhh.

Yes X1/X2/FC/DOFP/Logan were good but c'mon now the ceiling has been hit, so much so that they created a mess of a timeline because there was nowhere else they could take it!

It's also hilarious when I read that Misney is not capable of good story telling, oh no only Fox has the power to accomplish that lol.

Just Fox, a Hollywood studio no different than the other studios, can create true art lol.

I don't care how good X2 and Spiderman 2 were I don't want to see anymore contained stories with those characters

I want their motivations and leadership qualities to change its called character growth.

Yes Peter Parker now has other reasons why he does things not just because of Uncle Ben's death. Sure his death can still be part of it but lets allow these characters to branch out even more.

Oh no not Iron Man interacting with Spiderman creating new and unexplored dynamics in a superhero universe we can't have that it has to be about Uncle Ben 100% of the time!

Like I already said pturtle is 100% right we got our XM vs Brotherhood stories out of the way, now lets remove that ceiling shall we.

What's sickening is that WB/DC don't have to deal with that license restriction yet look at them lol (still looking forward to WW/JL though).

 

[RIDDICK]

I just hope the action is good and Keaton's character is entertaining.
No hope for the story or other characters at this point.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Like I already said pturtle is 100% right we got our XM vs Brotherhood stories out of the way, now lets remove that ceiling shall we.

We got Wolverine and some Fox Men vs Brotherhood.

It was ok. It was the early 2000's. It was Singer's vision...cool.

I still want an X-Men team film in their classic costumes, then expand the roster in subsequent films and introduce other worlds, the cosmos, magic, cosmic entities....etc...

I don't need Disney to do it, but I'm not against seeing Disney's version of the X-Men and possible solo X-Men character films. I'm curious.

Ideally, X-Men should be a tv series like Walking Dead or any other show with a large cast of character. That way we can see them going on missions against different villains, see them living their "normal" lives in the X Mansion, fighting with each other, having fun together, just one big dysfunctional family. Even filler episodes can focus on smaller characters. Not to mention tv shows have a lot more time to develop characters and relationships and have multiple character arcs.

 

[jye4ever]

I can picture pturtle and DiFabio hanging out together wearing this tshirt lol



It would be like seeing Batman only as Bruce Wayne for the entire movie for 17 years worth of movies!

Imagine 10 Batman movies but never in his costume lol.

*Prepares for secret identity rebuttal.

The best part is that Logan actually provided a viable narrative path for him to wear his costume, on his final movie no less, yet they didn't go with it.

Logan told his daughter that the comcs were all lies for bed wetters so how cool would've it been for him to dust off his costume from the Wolverine deleted scene for his final assault and showed her and the other kids that heroes really do exist, showed her that she could do good like Xavier always taught even after her dad was gone.

It would've given her pride to then wear the costume in her movies going forward in honor of her daddy.

He died while wearing the X-Men uniform, perfect.

 

[pturtle]

It's not silly for these characters to go back to the MCU we already had 17 years worth of Fox XM movies and now they're just spinning their wheels because the license doesn't allow for anymore story growth.

XM Phoenix Rage whatever its going to be called is going to be the same **** again!

Doesn't matter the good to bad ratio of movies at each individual studios it's time to allow Marvel to bring the XM and FF home so that the movies can expand deep into far reaching character interactions.

All these studios having small pieces of the license needs to end.

Who cares if Marvel went bankrupt and was saved by the parting out of their characters that was the past they're healthy now so let them buy their characters back.

Except Deadpool, keep his lame ass character at Fox lol. Oh look i'm speaking to the audience just like Ferris Bueller ughhh.

Yes X1/X2/FC/DOFP/Logan were good but c'mon now the ceiling has been hit, so much so that they created a mess of a timeline because there was nowhere else they could take it!

It's also hilarious when I read that Misney is not capable of good story telling, oh no only Fox has the power to accomplish that lol.

Just Fox, a Hollywood studio no different than the other studios, can create true art lol.

I don't care how good X2 and Spiderman 2 were I don't want to see anymore contained stories with those characters

I want their motivations and leadership qualities to change its called character growth.

Yes Peter Parker now has other reasons why he does things not just because of Uncle Ben's death. Sure his death can still be part of it but lets allow these characters to branch out even more.

Oh no not Iron Man interacting with Spiderman creating new and unexplored dynamics in a superhero universe we can't have that it has to be about Uncle Ben 100% of the time!

Like I already said pturtle is 100% right we got our XM vs Brotherhood stories out of the way, now lets remove that ceiling shall we.

What's sickening is that WB/DC don't have to deal with that license restriction yet look at them lol (still looking forward to WW/JL though).

You're going to regret this post when they announce that X-Men Supernova is going to be R rated and directed by James Mangold. And you're really going going to regret this post once you watch the movie and it opens up with Cyclops puts a hole though 3 "aliens" chests with his optic beam.

We got Wolverine and some Fox Men vs Brotherhood.

It was ok. It was the early 2000's. It was Singer's vision...cool.

I still want an X-Men team film in their classic costumes, then expand the roster in subsequent films and introduce other worlds, the cosmos, magic, cosmic entities....etc...

I don't need Disney to do it, but I'm not against seeing Disney's version of the X-Men and possible solo X-Men character films. I'm curious.

Ideally, X-Men should be a tv series like Walking Dead or any other show with a large cast of character. That way we can see them going on missions against different villains, see them living their "normal" lives in the X Mansion, fighting with each other, having fun together, just one big dysfunctional family. Even filler episodes can focus on smaller characters. Not to mention tv shows have a lot more time to develop characters and relationships and have multiple character arcs.

We're going in circles but I'll say it again, if we got a movie featuring some X-Men vs the Brotherhood, then we only got a movie with some Avengers vs Loki/Ultron since Antman and Wasp were missing.

I do agree though, if Fox want to continue telling X-Men stories they need to go in a new direction. Focus on new characters, let Charles, and Wolverine be supporting characters, retire Magneto and Mystique for a bit, and for gods sake, no more Stryker

I think you're going to get your wish though with Supernova, they'll have their colorful costumes, it seems they're going to be going to space, but if Kinberg is really writing and directing, then I expect it's going to be one of the worst superhero movies of all time.

I still think the best thing for Fox to do is soft reboot, they can keep the Singer-verse going but just pick and choose what they want to remain canon (like they do for every film) get rid of the younger cast and jump to present day when Deadpool takes place. They can give us a prime A team, and cast better actors in the roles with more charisma and screen presence.