NBA 10-11

[Wake]

To be honest if (and WHEN) Lebron and the Heat win... he will be as important a piece as any one. He will likely be the reason for the championship much in the way Wade would be, or Jordan was, or Pippen... In fact take Pippen off those Bulls teams and I don't know if we're refering to Jordan as the greatest ever... That might have been reserved for Bird or Magic or Wilt. Basketball is a team sport. The smartest people in the world try to eliminate obstacles from there own success. To not do that... to stubbornly try and do it by yourself... is stupid... arrogant.... and egotistical.

 

[The Josh]

Meaning Josh? Your opinion improved or worsened?

About all 3? Worsened. Qutting on your teammates the way James and Bosh did and then doing what James did. Then you get the spectacle they've made themselves out to be. Being upset everybody isn't flaunting all over them.

I guess I'm just oldschool in that my dream era of the NBA is long over with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Pippen, etc all gone. I just liked the way they went about their business compared to the diva filled NBA we have now.

The Bulls are my favorite team and one of the reasons I love this current team is they just go about their business. No need to pound their chest and act like a bunch of spoiled brats. When you're lead by one of the most level headed superstars the league has seen in a while it shows. Plus we have the right coach with that kind of mentality as well.

 

[azurepred]

The problem with Lebron, IMO, is this--he's in a lose-lose, damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. People hate on him because he "took the easy road" to a championship. But consider this--athletes are always accused of choosing money over everything else. Well, Lebron took a hefty pay cut to play in Miami. Players also always say that they "play to win the game." Well, Lebron put himself in the best position he could to do that. In that sense, he's doing what all players are "supposed" to do--to play to win, and to put themselves in the best position to win that they can.

Yeah, he didn't need to do the 1-hour special. And yes, it is going to hurt his legacy if he only wins championships with these guys, because guys like Kobe did more with less (at least, with less big stars). But in a sense, that also shows that he accepts that he can't win it on his own. As big as his ego is, it apparently isn't so big that he feels the need to be considered "the greatest player of all time." Jordan and Kobe weren't satisfied to really share the glory, because you can tell that they both want(ed) that mantle. Lebron's no dummy. He knows that a championship with Wade won't mean as much. But he wanted gold and went for it. Shouldn't that be the goal of professional athletes?

People in this thread are gonna hate on Lebron no matter what. Even when you put out a post like that, ppl are gonna use everything they possibly can to knock him down. If he wins 10 titles in a row with Miami, ppl will say the same bull ____ then if he didnt win any at all.

meh. Even if he did it would be forever tainted. Its not like he earned it. If you have to go to a Dream Team to win a title, then its like winning a special olympics medal...

Think about all the great ones that have ever won an NBA title, how many had to switch teams to do so? Not very many.

if Miami wins a title, especially this year, it makes no sense to me how someone could say he didnt earn it when hes clearly the best player and the leader of the Heat. If Lebron joined a "Dream Team", Bos, SA, and LA wouldnt be favorites over them to win the title.

 

[FLOSI]

I guess the W's traded Brandon Wright and Dan Gadzuric for Troy Murphy... All three are expiring contracts at years end but apparently we get a 2nd rounder and they get an extra body on their team for the rest of the year.... These cap conscious moves are really, really lackluster and boring.

The Celitcs killed the Warriors last night... Not that I expected anything different but it's always interesting to see how you stack up v. the best.

 

[azurepred]

Kings are supposed to be looking into trading Carl Landry away, that should be a good pick up for someone.............Hopefully not the Lakers.

 

[jstep13]

I'm not saying the situations are the same. But Shaq was arguably the best player in the league at that time. Based on your logic, it sounds like you're saying Kobe's championships from that era are tainted, because he didn't single-handedly win them.

But really, you don't get many great players single-handedly winning championships in the NBA anymore (Jordan came closest in recent years, IMO--Pippen gets more credit than he deserves from riding Jordan's coattails). I'm not saying anything negative about Kobe, but he needed talent around him to win. Lebron didn't have that in Cleveland and it apparently wasn't forthcoming. It all seems like matters of degree to me--how much talent is too much. Guys who aspire to be all time greats will do more with less, I would agree. And Kobe didn't go to play with 4 other all-stars, probably because (in part) he realized how it would affect legacy. But I think it is an unrealistic characterization to say that Lebron would have only "earned" a championship with the bums he was teamed with in Cleveland.

lol, if youre not saying the situations are the same then why are you creating a false argument?

I dont know why youre reading anything Im saying as a knock on Kobe. What part of "he didnt have any control over who drafts him or where he was TRADED to" do you not understand? There is a big difference between VOLUNTARILY leaving your team (AKA abandoning) your team and being drafted and sent packing on draft day to another team. Kobe wasnt even on my mind when I wrote that.

What Im saying is (and Ill clarify it for the slow here) that when you have to abandon a team because you feel that they have no chance of winning for another all-star laden team, a la LeBron, if you win a title there's gonna be some stank on that championship because, and this is the key point Im trying to convey, HOW HE WON IT. Im sorry but thats the perception. If you dont believe me, then watch and read the criticisms.

Mark my words if, and at this point its a BIG IF, he wins, the first criticism is that he select the hall of famers of his choice to win the big one. There's a big difference between that and say, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Isiah etc, already being on the team when they had future hall of famers develop AROUND THEM.

These guys did not pick and choose where to go to. They were there from the beginning, through thick and thin, unlike LeTraitor.

 

[The Josh]

I will say these guys that get drafted have more power than you think. I do remember it being said during the draft that Kobe or his people had made it known he didn't want to play for really anyone other than like LA or Philly. I mean we've seen it in football with John Elways, Eli Manning, and baseball is no exception either. These kids can force hands and it has happened.

Kobe as a youngster annoyed me to death. All I heard was he's the next Jordan. He showed no signs in his younger days IMO that he now shows on the court and off. He is far closer to the greatness of Jordan and I don't mind the comparisons now that he's turned into a more mature adult.

 

[jstep13]

Ive never seen anything written nor said that he forced Hornets' hand. So until I see facts, Im gonna assume that never happened. But lets say it did, for arguments sake. There's still a big difference. First, the signing of Shaq wouldve happened after the draft. So Kobe had no idea there was another HOF there. Second, Kobe was not a proven bonafide star at that point. He was raw and a work in progress. He was not in his prime like LeTraitor. Finally, its not like he played for X team for so many years and decided that they were not going to win and abanonded them for Y team like LeTraitor did.

Again, my point is, if you start out with a team and decide they arent going to win, as quickly as you like, and then collude to build an all star team in some other city, then your legacy is tainted even if you win.

He will NEVER go down in lore as one of the all time greats like Magic, Bird, MJ etc.

He is forever tainted.

 

[Wake]

lol, if youre not saying the situations are the same then why are you creating a false argument?

I dont know why youre reading anything Im saying as a knock on Kobe. What part of "he didnt have any control over who drafts him or where he was TRADED to" do you not understand? There is a big difference between VOLUNTARILY leaving your team (AKA abandoning) your team and being drafted and sent packing on draft day to another team. Kobe wasnt even on my mind when I wrote that.

What Im saying is (and Ill clarify it for the slow here) that when you have to abandon a team because you feel that they have no chance of winning for another all-star laden team, a la LeBron, if you win a title there's gonna be some stank on that championship because, and this is the key point Im trying to convey, HOW HE WON IT. Im sorry but thats the perception. If you dont believe me, then watch and read the criticisms.

Mark my words if, and at this point its a BIG IF, he wins, the first criticism is that he select the hall of famers of his choice to win the big one. There's a big difference between that and say, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Isiah etc, already being on the team when they had future hall of famers develop AROUND THEM.

These guys did not pick and choose where to go to. They were there from the beginning, through thick and thin, unlike LeTraitor.

Thing is... I'm pretty sure Lebron would rather win a championship than be another Dan Marino... in the end he chose the lesser of two evils. Cleveland wasn't going to get him to the promised land. Why should he waste his time and energy. Here is the hypocrisy in all of this... why I can't stomach people who criticize him for leaving to a better situation... THAT'S LIFE. You'd be an idiot to say "no, eventhough that over there is better, I'm going to stay here and rough it out" ... he's not defecting from his country. He's not renouncing his religion. He's moving to a better business. Geez, get that through your dumb skull.

 

[azurepred]

I find it interesting how ppl are so quick to hate Lebron for "quitting" on his team and leaving because he had the right to through free agency, yet Melo holds his team hostage for over half the season, gets traded where he wanted to go so he could get his max money, and nobody bags on him for anything............hypocrites?

I also find it interesting how people would rather praise a known wife cheater who bought his wife back with a 10 million dollar ring over a guy who abandons his team, and some how Lebron is this terrible monster of a human being. People are so easily swayed, when/if Lebron wins a title, it will all be forgiven and forgotten, except in Lebrons haters eyes. The only thing subjective people will remember, is that he won if he wins. Of course, if someone wants to compare Lebron to Jordan, then yea, you could bring up his past, but to say his titles would be tainted is ridiculous.

 

[karamazov80]

I dont know why youre reading anything Im saying as a knock on Kobe. What part of "he didnt have any control over who drafts him or where he was TRADED to" do you not understand? There is a big difference between VOLUNTARILY leaving your team (AKA abandoning) your team and being drafted and sent packing on draft day to another team. Kobe wasnt even on my mind when I wrote that.

What Im saying is (and Ill clarify it for the slow here) that when you have to abandon a team because you feel that they have no chance of winning for another all-star laden team, a la LeBron, if you win a title there's gonna be some stank on that championship because, and this is the key point Im trying to convey, HOW HE WON IT. Im sorry but thats the perception. If you dont believe me, then watch and read the criticisms.

Mark my words if, and at this point its a BIG IF, he wins, the first criticism is that he select the hall of famers of his choice to win the big one. There's a big difference between that and say, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Isiah etc, already being on the team when they had future hall of famers develop AROUND THEM.

These guys did not pick and choose where to go to. They were there from the beginning, through thick and thin, unlike LeTraitor.

That's fine and good. But is completely different than the argument you seem to be making here:

meh. Even if he did it would be forever tainted. Its not like he earned it.

Whether you willfully leave, are traded, or are drafted by team X, you were acting like the championship doesn't mean anything if you have other great players on your team. If you are saying that Kobe's earlier titles are tainted "Special Olympics" titles, then that's your prerogative. But I wouldn't say that.

And if you don't recall, Kobe was threatening to leave the Lakers just a few years ago after being frustrated at management's inability to bring in talent after Shaq left and the Lakers couldn't win in the playoffs. And. . .management responded! That's a difference in management that afforded Kobe more rings without him having to leave. Cleveland's management didn't do jack.

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"Through thick and thin?"

 

[The Josh]

I'm not comparing the situations. I'm just saying from what I recall reading at the time that this was the case but I've read many articles since that it wasn't. I'm just saying that these players can force things and that it does happen.

 

[work13]

I find it interesting how ppl are so quick to hate Lebron for "quitting" on his team...

Speaking for myself, I'm not hating on lebron for quitting on his team for a better opportunity, I think most people just don't like "how" he did it.

 

[Wake]

Speaking for myself, I'm not hating on lebron for quitting on his team for a better opportunity, I think most people just don't like "how" he did it.

THIS is fine. And a fair criticism. But the season is 2/3rds of the way done... shouldnt the game be more important at this point? I think people are really holding on to this.

 

[DinoDB1975]

The hate will be there for Lebron up until he wins his first championship (if he wins a championship). But if he wins multiple championships, the tarnish will go away, at least in the eyes of the general public. There will always be those that will hold Lebron leaving Cleveland against him.

I'm in my 30's, and not as huge a basketball fan as I used to be. My heyday was the Knicks battling the Bulls, Charles being traded from Philly to Phoenix, and Hakeem winning a chanpionship without Clyde and another one with Clyde. My NBA viewing decreased when the old guard left, but has slowly started to creep back.

Lebron is a phenomenal athelete, and like it or not, we are watching something historical here. NBA fans, regardless of allegience to a particular team, should appreciate this from a historical standpoint.

Quoting Bill Simmons from a recent article about the longevity of Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Ray Allen, et al:

"Twelve-year primes are going to stretch to 15. Fifteen-year careers are going to stretch past 20. The 20,000 Point Club will become the 30,000 Point Club. It's not just that records will be made and stretched, or that we'll be seeing things we've never seen before. For the first time, basketball records might actually start mattering beyond "100 points," "72 wins," "33 straight," "11 rings" and "However Many Points Kareem Ended Up With."

And if you want to think about something truly frightening, consider the following four things ...

1. LeBron James passed 16,000 points a few weeks ago. It took him fewer than 600 games.

2. Barring injury and a prolonged lockout, by the end of his 10th season (2012-13), LeBron should be sitting at 22,000 points.

3. If LeBron plays the next seven and a half seasons 85 percent as well as he played the previous seven and a half seasons, he'll be sitting at 30,000 points, 7,500 assists and 7,500 rebounds ... and he'll be 33 years old. A few months older than Kobe right now.

4. Like it or not, we are all going to be witnesses. "

 

[Shatterer of Dreams]

Speaking for myself, I'm not hating on lebron for quitting on his team for a better opportunity, I think most people just don't like "how" he did it.

This is where I have my problem.

THIS is fine. And a fair criticism. But the season is 2/3rds of the way done... shouldnt the game be more important at this point? I think people are really holding on to this.

People hold onto these things because that one incident showed his true nature and it wasn't what Nike was selling us. The bottom line is when he left Cleveland he basically ruined the economy of the entire downtown area and that is ruff. If it was just some other guy leaving then it's not a big deal but businesses lived and died by this one guy, I'm not saying that it was all his responsibility I'm just saying the way he did things was classless.

 

[azurepred]

Speaking for myself, I'm not hating on lebron for quitting on his team for a better opportunity, I think most people just don't like "how" he did it.

i know, theres a lot of ppl like that, but if he does win something, it will be water under the bridge in the grand scheme of things. Some ppl just want to use anything to bash Lebron. im sure anyone that has watched basketbell in the last 10 years can remember how hated Kobe was after the whole rape trial thing happened, now look at him, most ppl, not including myself just look past that and forget the whole thing ever happened. His fans always stayed at his side and never really seemed to care about it.

 

[The Josh]

These guys today have a ton of talent. No arguments there. I wonder how guys like Jordan would have benefitted from.

 

[Wake]

i know, theres a lot of ppl like that, but if he does win something, it will be water under the bridge in the grand scheme of things. Some ppl just want to use anything to bash Lebron. im sure anyone that has watched basketbell in the last 10 years can remember how hated Kobe was after the whole rape trial thing happened, now look at him, most ppl, not including myself just look past that and forget the whole thing ever happened. His fans always stayed at his side and never really seemed to care about it.

RAPE accusations were FAR worse then what Lebron did.

People hold onto these things because that one incident showed his true nature and it wasn't what Nike was selling us. The bottom line is when he left Cleveland he basically ruined the economy of the entire downtown area and that is ruff. If it was just some other guy leaving then it's not a big deal but businesses lived and died by this one guy, I'm not saying that it was all his responsibility I'm just saying the way he did things was classless.

He didn't mean to destroy the economy of a town. But how is beholden to them? His contract ran its course.

 

[jstep13]

Thing is... I'm pretty sure Lebron would rather win a championship than be another Dan Marino... in the end he chose the lesser of two evils. Cleveland wasn't going to get him to the promised land. Why should he waste his time and energy. Here is the hypocrisy in all of this... why I can't stomach people who criticize him for leaving to a better situation....

Why not? Plenty of athletes have been LOYAL to their team, even to the end. Loyalty, yes I know, what a novelty. And if you were an intelligent sports fan, you would know who these guys are. And Marino had a chance to abandon the Dolphins for the Vikings at one point because they had an insane amount of talent at that time. You of all "Miami" fans, should know that.

And how do you know Cleveland wasnt going to get hims to the promise land? Because they didnt win the first 6-7 years he was there? Hmmm well how long did MJ have to win before his first championship? Elway? Petyon Manning? Shall I go on? You never know what's around the corner in the world of sports, good or bad.

He's moving to a better business. Geez, get that through your dumb skull.

lol, Im dumb? Youre the one being clowned by everyone here evertime I come to this thread for being the biggest fool on this board. Maybe you shouldnt throw stones, know what I mean