Neill Blomkamp's ALIEN is official!

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I'm not about to bash Aliens to defend on Alien 3, or the other way around, but Xeno makes some very interesting points about making the Aliens bugs, good debate.

Yeah there's always been a controversy over it going right back to 1986. In Alien there is some suggestion of a more sinister mind to the creature in the way that it attacks Lambert in particular. Some believe it actually stripped her and raped her - you see dangling bare feet when Ripley enters the scene.

In Aliens the drones seem to lose any of this character - but I would argue the Queen somewhat takes up the mantle. Not that there is anything to infer that the Queen is up for a bit of rape but she does clearly have a 'vendetta' against Ripley and pursues her in a very deliberate way, going to quite a lot of trouble, taking elevators and so on :D
 
The similarities to the T1 VS T2 argument are uncanny here. ''It's a great movie but was a 'good guy' one-liner spouting T-800 really where the franchise needed to go''

Maybe not but then don't make a sequel. Just leave it at the original, one and done. Or try to do the exact same thing again and be dismissed for your lack of originality.
I have recognized the similarities between these two franchises, in that both veered away from a more toned down horror film into a more over the top action film for the sequel. I still think there are important differences, like the lack of a real threat, and a bit too much in the way of winking to the audience in T2. But certainly, both sequels worked well (Aliens working better than T2, obviously :D ), and did so by eschewing the lazy, obvious approach of trying to re-capture the lightning in the bottle of the first films. As much as I love the Terminator, I wouldn't have really wanted Cameron to try and imitate himself years later, when he clearly had a different set of ambitions in terms of the audience he wanted to appeal to, the kinds of special effects he wanted to create, and ultimately, the kind of story he wanted to tell at that point in his career. He was well on his way to Titanic- and Avatar-ville at that point, and it would have felt forced if he tried to make a bleak, gritty horror movie at that point.
 
No, it certainly wasn't where it needed to go. Death to T2. :lecture
You monster!

Yeah there's always been a controversy over it going right back to 1986. In Alien there is some suggestion of a more sinister mind to the creature in the way that it attacks Lambert in particular. Some believe it actually stripped her and raped her - you see dangling bare feet when Ripley enters the scene.

In Aliens the drones seem to lose any of this character - but I would argue the Queen somewhat takes up the mantle. Not that there is anything to infer that the Queen is up for a bit of rape but she does clearly have a 'vendetta' against Ripley and pursues her in a very deliberate way, going to quite a lot of trouble, taking elevators and so on :D
Yeah the Alien Queen is still a *****, but the drones do seem rather drone-y :lol perhaps the Alien of the 1st movie had to be extra careful and lethal given it was the only one on the ship, while in Aliens there's certainly a hive mind behavior, perhaps to defend the queen and the nest while providing new hosts, if you want to make an omelet....
 
I have recognized the similarities between these two franchises, in that both veered away from a more toned down horror film into a more over the top action film for the sequel. I still think there are important differences, like the lack of a real threat, and a bit too much in the way of winking to the audience in T2. But certainly, both sequels worked well (Aliens working better than T2, obviously :D ), and did so by eschewing the lazy, obvious approach of trying to re-capture the lightning in the bottle of the first films. As much as I love the Terminator, I wouldn't have really wanted Cameron to try and imitate himself years later, when he clearly had a different set of ambitions in terms of the audience he wanted to appeal to, the kinds of special effects he wanted to create, and ultimately, the kind of story he wanted to tell at that point in his career.

Personally, T2 evokes a more apocalyptic feeling than T1, and that's scarier to me, Sarah's nightmare was one of the scariest scenes for me as a kid.
 
Xenoburger if you prefer to Alien 3 to ALIENS then great, more power to you. You don't have to prefer war movies to prison movies, and if loud noises upset you or whatever then fine. Alien 3 gets to be your pet film of the franchise and that's all cool. But I wouldn't waste your energy trying to make a "case" for why Alien 3 is superior to Cameron's film from some sort of objective standpoint.

ALIENS was nominated for *seven* Oscars, including Best Actress, including Best Score (which apparently you are trying to suggest is forgettable and sucks or whatever.) Being a science-fiction film at that time and with those nominations instantly put ALIENS right smack dab in the company of Star Wars and E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial. Cameron has annoyed me time and time again, but for ALIENS he was in pure genius mode from beginning to end.

So lets look at Alien 3 in comparison. For one it's pretty universally regarded as bad form to basically just wipe out the entire supporting cast from a previous film off-screen. Not good writing. Imagine if Cameron said "I hate cats so uh, Jonesy disintegrated in cryo." Even that would have been stupid and it was just a freaking cat.

Plus Alien 3 just didn't have a likable cast. Not even Clemens really. There was Dillon and that was it. The warden, "85," all the random bald dudes. If they struck a chord with you great, but they absolutely did not with me nor apparently did they with most viewers. You complain that Cameron turned aliens into "bugs" but that's all the *humans* were in Fincher's film. Just random worker dudes with no real personalities or identities, running around like chickens with their heads cut off until they got speared into a wall or something. I like my humans to be more human. And if you take out that crucial human element so key in ALIEN and ALIENS then you're really just watching a thing taking out random extras with no real investment.

It's depressing, and amazingly shot, and I *do* appreciate that it deviated from the flame units/motion trackers/air locks of the first two films but sometimes originality alone just isn't enough to make something great. Alien 3 is fascinating to me, and as a cinematic piece of art I can appreciate that it gets under my skin and is kind of unpleasant. It accomplishes that well. But with ALIEN and ALIENS in addition to being fully invested in the fate of the cast I always find myself dying to know what else is going on in that "universe," what are the Company's real plans? What was the Nostromo crew's mission like before they went into cryo? What would a war look like that had Sulacos going at it or APC's dropping off multiple squads of troops? What is earth like and who was that Space Jockey? (<-before Prometheus obviously) And with Alien 3 I just don't buy into the "world" enough to care. They're just making crap up like magic eggs and having a hodge podge of unlikely scenarios (a prison with no guns? really? talk about convenient, sheesh) that were just thrown together with very little thought so we could get some cool puppet shots of an alien racing through halls. And that's it. The first 10 minutes of that film just kills any interest or stake I have in that world and it never gains it back. Never gives me any replacement characters or well thought out scenarios that I can invest in. And that's too bad.
 
The Alien in Alien was very Alien. It's look, it's motives, it's intelligence, it's purpose.
It was like encountering a new species of wild animal, you could not tell what it was going to do.
Was it really intelligent or just instinctive, evil or just animalistic.

In Aliens, it was more of a straight forward insect metaphor. Queen, hive workers which really only served as cannon fodder. The weird threatening alien organism thing wasn't there.

An action picture first, the horror was put in the background. I absolutely loved it for being a different movie. The very best way to approach sequels. Likewise T2. Which became more about spectacle and VFX. Both Alien and The Terminator are better movies still though.

Alien3? Love it, but its an amazing oddity, a very flawed but fascinating film. Different league in every aspect to Aliens.
 
Why every time someone questions Aliens people think they're trying to bash it into oblivion? :lol I didn't get the feel Xeno was trying to do such thing.
 
Why every time someone questions Aliens people think they're trying to bash it into oblivion? :lol I didn't get the feel Xeno was trying to do such thing.

Well Xeno's arguments are the very same ones that are always levelled at Aliens by Alien ('79) purists, so I know why James Bond jumped to that conclusion even if he were incorrect to do so.
 
It's not really about the Alien, Aliens, Queen or the Ox Alien anyway. The story is about Ripley. Once people let go of how they feel these creatures should be perceived and focus on Ripley as a character, each film is elevated.


image.jpg


And I hate when people write off Aliens as some kind of cheap action schlock. There's more to it than "shoot teh bugz!". It's just as depressing as Alien 3. You have 150 people (that include families with children) massacred. When the marines come in, they're all killed off. You have horrible **** happening left and right like the one Alien catching a ride and destroying the ship, THEN not enough ammo, THEN the smart guns losing their ammo, THEN no rescue for 17 days, THEN the facility going nuclear and blowing up in 4 hours. Then when you think it's all good, Hicks gets disfigured by acid and Bishop gets torn in half. It's depressing as **** and Ripley, Hicks, Newt and Bishop were lucky to make it out in one piece (or pieces in the case of Bishop).

Everyone dies in these films.
 
If I was an "Alien purist" I wouldn't be here defending Alien 3, genius. Think before you type.

I love the entire alien franchise, even Resurrection. I'm just tired of all the butt hurt whinebags who claim to be fans of the franchise, but really only like Aliens and think it's "teh greatest thing evar" and endlessly bash Alien 3 because their ADD won't allow them to watch a great film that doesn't have a) a dozen cheesy dialogue-spouting marine badasses with big guns, b) a hundred new generic aliens with the big "boss" alien at the end or c), a & b having an all-out war.

And no, it still wasn't a massive plot hole. I don't think there's been anything established that states those eggs couldn't possibly have been there.

The queen alien using the elevator is just as if not more ridiculous than that, and neither "issues" take away from the films.
Just for your information, an Alien Purist is anyone who slams the second film for being different or someone who claims that Cameron prostituted Scott's vision, which is pretty much what you've been doing. So perhaps you should take your own advice.

To my knowledge Alien was the first science fiction horror film. In my opinion it's a masterpiece because everything worked. You had characters to love, an evil corporation, a single villain that caused total mayhem and even a Judas type character to pull off a twist toward the end. It worked so well because it was fresh, audiences didn't really see the creature and because you had a group of civilians on a huge ship, with no training who didn't know what they were up against. You can't make that film a second time.

As Khev said, Aliens was the next step in the franchise. The type of film didn't even change that much. You don't even see an Alien for the first hour and there was still suspense. The reason it worked was because it gave you the same things as the first, but delivered them in a different ways with a bit more action. The film even ended almost the same way as the first.

Now Alien 3. The production behind this film was a mess. I believe it went through 9 directors and just as many scripts. The studio raided the set and caused complete chaos and they even tried to use an actor's likeness without his permission. I don't blame Fincher for that at all, it was his first film and I'm sure he was at the mercy of the studio.

The problem with Alien 3 as a story is that it didn't give you the same elements that first two did. Other than Ripley there are no characters to love, no Judas and you know what Alien looks like. Fincher was huge fan of the original and tried to create the same fell, but it didn't work on many levels. A single Alien just isn't a threat, unless of course you kill off the only remaining Marine, add in a couple dozen dumbbell criminals and take away every piece of technology or weapon that Ripley can use against it.

You do know what a plot hole is right? When doing a sequel your story has to lineup with the continuity of pervious film. They didn't do that and it's almost as if they thought the audience was too stupid to think for themselves.

No matter what theory you go with, one egg or two, it's a massive plot hole that can not be explained. The egg that we see is smaller and it's on the ceiling of all places. Then the egg or facehugger somehow gets into the cryo room from the hanger, breaks into Ripley's cryo bed and causes a fire. Finally, if you go with the single egg theory, it lives long enough to jump on to a dog and lay another egg. This goes against everything we are shown in the previous films and it doesn't add up.

Fox wanted people to swallow this ridiculous story setup because they had ran off all the talented people. There's a reason they chose a director with nothing under his belt.
 
Xenoburger if you prefer to Alien 3 to ALIENS then great, more power to you. You don't have to prefer war movies to prison movies, and if loud noises upset you or whatever then fine. Alien 3 gets to be your pet film of the franchise and that's all cool. But I wouldn't waste your energy trying to make a "case" for why Alien 3 is superior to Cameron's film from some sort of objective standpoint.

ALIENS was nominated for *seven* Oscars, including Best Actress, including Best Score (which apparently you are trying to suggest is forgettable and sucks or whatever.) Being a science-fiction film at that time and with those nominations instantly put ALIENS right smack dab in the company of Star Wars and E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial. Cameron has annoyed me time and time again, but for ALIENS he was in pure genius mode from beginning to end.

So lets look at Alien 3 in comparison. For one it's pretty universally regarded as bad form to basically just wipe out the entire supporting cast from a previous film off-screen. Not good writing. Imagine if Cameron said "I hate cats so uh, Jonesy disintegrated in cryo." Even that would have been stupid and it was just a freaking cat.

Plus Alien 3 just didn't have a likable cast. Not even Clemens really. There was Dillon and that was it. The warden, "85," all the random bald dudes. If they struck a chord with you great, but they absolutely did not with me nor apparently did they with most viewers. You complain that Cameron turned aliens into "bugs" but that's all the *humans* were in Fincher's film. Just random worker dudes with no real personalities or identities, running around like chickens with their heads cut off until they got speared into a wall or something. I like my humans to be more human. And if you take out that crucial human element so key in ALIEN and ALIENS then you're really just watching a thing taking out random extras with no real investment.

It's depressing, and amazingly shot, and I *do* appreciate that it deviated from the flame units/motion trackers/air locks of the first two films but sometimes originality alone just isn't enough to make something great. Alien 3 is fascinating to me, and as a cinematic piece of art I can appreciate that it gets under my skin and is kind of unpleasant. It accomplishes that well. But with ALIEN and ALIENS in addition to being fully invested in the fate of the cast I always find myself dying to know what else is going on in that "universe," what are the Company's real plans? What was the Nostromo crew's mission like before they went into cryo? What would a war look like that had Sulacos going at it or APC's dropping off multiple squads of troops? What is earth like and who was that Space Jockey? (<-before Prometheus obviously) And with Alien 3 I just don't buy into the "world" enough to care. They're just making crap up like magic eggs and having a hodge podge of unlikely scenarios (a prison with no guns? really? talk about convenient, sheesh) that were just thrown together with very little thought so we could get some cool puppet shots of an alien racing through halls. And that's it. The first 10 minutes of that film just kills any interest or stake I have in that world and it never gains it back. Never gives me any replacement characters or well thought out scenarios that I can invest in. And that's too bad.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
I agree that Alien 3 has an awesome score, in fact the entire film always ends on a high note with that sweet montage of all the doors closing, locking, and so forth at the end, Ripley's "transmission" (I *LOVE* the idea that the warning she broadcast at the end of A1 bounced around in space for decades until finally being picked up by the Sulaco EEV, way, way, too late, so harsh but brilliant) and then the music as the credits roll.
 
Thing that's weird about Alien 3 score is that it shares atleast 3 tracks with Batman Forever. One where Robin steals the Batmobile and goes to fight that gang and two that were used with Two-Face.

Any time I watch Alien 3 I think of the Batman Forever scenes during the attempted rape of Ripley, when the Alien is hunting them, etc. Any time I watch Batman Forever, I think of Alien 3.
 
Back
Top