Official "The Dark Knight" SPOILER Thread

[The Mike]

I love mine. I display one face up and one scarred side up. Both in Airtite holders with display easels....very Batman IMHO.

 

[wofford29]

This should close the debate about Harvey still being alive. Here's the script for the film. Go to page 163. He's dead.

https://joblo.com/scripts/The_Dark_Knight.pdf

 

[Agent0028]

I don't think that debate will truly rest until the next one comes out. They intended for him to be dead at the time the script was written and the movie was made, but there is nothing in the movie that indicates beyond doubt that he is dead so they can still bring him back if they so desire.

 

[Fives]

This should close the debate about Harvey still being alive. Here's the script for the film. Go to page 163. He's dead.

https://joblo.com/scripts/The_Dark_Knight.pdf

man!!!!!!!! reading the last 2 pages of the script gave me goosebumps..........awesome stuff!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Mike]

This should close the debate about Harvey still being alive. Here's the script for the film. Go to page 163. He's dead.

https://joblo.com/scripts/The_Dark_Knight.pdf

What was scripted and what was filmed is completely different. Nolan's filming proves that he left it open for a reason, now he may not use Two-Face in Batman 3 but he certainly made it vague enough to be able to use him if he wanted to.

 

[wofford29]

What was scripted and what was filmed is completely different. Nolan's filming proves that he left it open for a reason, now he may not use Two-Face in Batman 3 but he certainly made it vague enough to be able to use him if he wanted to.

Uhhhh...that part of the script reads exactly how it was filmed. I'd say the denial can stop now. He's DEAD.

 

[Cocoboloboy]

That was really cool reading some of that script. This is a story I don't want to see end. I'd love to have a few more Batman movies with Bale and Nolan but I'd probably be lucky just to get one more three years from now.

 

[tomandshell]

I'm tempted to make this my signature:

Bringing back the character would be one of those cheesy fanboy things like having Darth Maul return with robot legs. It would suck all the drama out the window and ruin the realistic tone that Nolan has nailed in these two films. Dead people stay dead, and bringing back Harvey or Rachel after their dramatic deaths would betray the tone of the new films and be a "jump the shark" moment for the rebooted franchise, which has done so well because of a sense of plausibility that elevates it above the typical "comic book movie."

Comic books require the bad guys to come back from the dead because they are continuing from issue to issue on a regular basis and need to keep the readers sucked in. They are episodic, like a television series that has to keep killing off characters and providing cliffhanger moments and surprises to keep you coming back week after week. A film is a stand alone piece of entertainment telling a self contained story that is wrapped up in two and a half hours. Nolan makes a film once every three years or so, up to maybe three films total in the series--he doesn't need to repeat himself any more than just having a little Scarecrow cameo, and having a similar cameo with Two Face just wouldn't work because of the implications of his death in TDK. The entire conclusion of the film was based upon the fact that Harvey was dead and Batman/Gordon needed to preserve his image. Harvey's storyline--in the film world--is complete. He's finished.

 

[wofford29]

I'm tempted to make this my signature:

Bringing back the character would be one of those cheesy fanboy things like having Darth Maul return with robot legs. It would suck all the drama out the window and ruin the realistic tone that Nolan has nailed in these two films. Dead people stay dead, and bringing back Harvey or Rachel after their dramatic deaths would betray the tone of the new films and be a "jump the shark" moment for the rebooted franchise, which has done so well because of a sense of plausibility that elevates it above the typical "comic book movie."

Comic books require the bad guys to come back from the dead because they are continuing from issue to issue on a regular basis and need to keep the readers sucked in. They are episodic, like a television series that has to keep killing off characters and providing cliffhanger moments and surprises to keep you coming back week after week. A film is a stand alone piece of entertainment telling a self contained story that is wrapped up in two and a half hours. Nolan makes a film once every three years or so, up to maybe three films total in the series--he doesn't need to repeat himself any more than just having a little Scarecrow cameo, and having a similar cameo with Two Face just wouldn't work because of the implications of his death in TDK. The entire conclusion of the film was based upon the fact that Harvey was dead and Batman/Gordon needed to preserve his image. Harvey's storyline--in the film world--is complete. He's finished.

Thank you. Nolan's entire M.O. is to make every film he completes a stand alone work. He's stated this time and time again...That when he wraps on a set, the story is complete. He's one of the most confident directors working today and has only had one film with a deleted scene in it. The man knows what he wants, shoots it, edits it, and it's done. For some reason people think that he's some trickster of a director that's trying to mislead, and misinform, when in fact he couldn't be more straightforward and honest about everything he's done. Read any interview the man has ever done. The Dark Knight story is closed. Dent's DEAD. Let the man rest in peace.

 

[pjam]

He's clearly filmed as written... lying dead, NOT breathing... with a Funeral to boot. Why would Gotham feign that? Makes no sense...

 

[Khev]

I also agree that TDK made it quite clear that Two-Face died. I don't think that should be retconned. I'm also in the minority in thinking that they should just end the franchise on such a perfect high note. The movie was flawless. The Joker is Batman's one true nemesis and due to Ledger's unfortunate situation he will never come back. Cinematically, he doesn't need to.

The Dark Knight isn't The Empire Strikes back. It doesn't demand a sequel. Imagine if at the end of ESB Darth Vader was apprehended and the Empire scattered. Princess Leia died and Han Solo became evil then also died. And then James Earl Jones died in real life. Would there be any reason at all to make Return of the Jedi? No!

I *know* WB is going to make more Batman movies. That's a given. I also know that Chris Nolan will probably make another one. But I think any following movies are just going to be unnecessary victory laps after the greatness of TDK. Will they still be good? If Nolan is still at the helm almost certainly. But they'll still be subject to potential dismissal.

The Joker's story is over. You can't follow-up with The Riddler, Catwoman, The Ventriloquist, Bane, or whoever and have it be as powerful.

TDK ended perfectly. Main bad guy defeated. Gotham's integrity is saved. Batman is assumedly going to be *more* effective at fighting crime, even if he is running from the law. Think about it, Gotham's criminals no longer have The Joker on their side and as far as they know Batman is no longer above KILLING THEM if he catches them. I see post-TDK Gotham as a very different place because of Harvey's legacy and Batman's sacrifice.

 

[pjam]

I BELIEVE IN HARVEY DENT'S DEATH.

As for the third installment, there will be one. It will follow the theme of "Redemption" so we will have to believe this time the Villain will be even more of a challenge to Gotham to pull it off successfully.

Gordon and Batman's relationship will be strengthened, this time he will absolutely have to rely on Batman to save the City.. and in so doing Batman will be redeemed and forever be recognized and appreciated as its Guardian.

Batman/Bruce will also need a new Love interest, so that may open things up a bit as far as Storylines...

Who will the Villain be? I don't think Nolan, Goyer and Co. know quite yet, once they do, it will get this Project rolling...

Maybe this time next year we'll know...

 

[Khev]

As for the third installment, there will be one.

Yes. As I said that's a given. I was just saying why I think there *shouldn't* be a third movie. By the same token I'm also excited to see Nolan's take on a new and improved batcave and whatever villains he decides to throw in. It just won't be as good and it won't be necessary. When you make a perfect Batman movie that features the rise, reign, and fall of the Joker you just aren't going to equal or top that with a lesser villain.

 

[Shropt]

I'm also in the minority in thinking that they should just end the franchise on such a perfect high note. The movie was flawless. The Joker is Batman's one true nemesis and due to Ledger's unfortunate situation he will never come back. Cinematically, he doesn't need to.

Exactly how I feel. Any sequel will be torn apart and considered crap compared to TDK. Why put yourself through that as an artist?

 

[pjam]

Yes. As I said that's a given. I was just saying why I think there *shouldn't* be a third movie. By the same token I'm also excited to see Nolan's take on a new and improved batcave and whatever villains he decides to throw in. It just won't be as good and it won't be necessary. When you make a perfect Batman movie that features the rise, reign, and fall of the Joker you just aren't going to equal or top that with a lesser villain.

I totally disagree. Why leave Batman's Character Arc incomplete? TDK was the second of three acts...

The plan has always been for a Trilogy. Themes were Fear, Escalation and Redemption. I'm sure Goyer, Nolan and Co will complete the arc as envisioned and it will be a satisfying payoff.

Just because TDK was executed well, doesn't mean the finale will fail. You guys don't even know what it's about yet and you're making assumptions based on speculation. I'll make mine based on the Story itself. As long as Nolan is sheparding it, I have confidence it will be a good Movie.

The only thing I am confident of is there will be a rebuilt Wayne Manor with new Batcave and a new Batmobile.

 

[EVILFACE]

Yes. As I said that's a given. I was just saying why I think there *shouldn't* be a third movie. By the same token I'm also excited to see Nolan's take on a new and improved batcave and whatever villains he decides to throw in. It just won't be as good and it won't be necessary. When you make a perfect Batman movie that features the rise, reign, and fall of the Joker you just aren't going to equal or top that with a lesser villain.

I'm for a third film from this creative team.

I only see Batman films ending with The Dark Knight Returns. But I would like to see a different team tackle that film.

 

[Khev]

I totally disagree. Why leave Batman's Character Arc incomplete? TDK was the second of three acts...

The plan has always been for a Trilogy. Themes were Fear, Escalation and Redemption.

I don't think his character arc is incomplete. He successfully defended Gotham from its most terrifying villain and inspired its citizens and law enforcement in the process by allowing Harvey Dent to be seen as a martyr. He succeeded in ways that would make his father more than proud. Bruce Wayne definitely has a complete arc. I don't know that its necessary for the persona of Batman to be "redeemed." Not that it isn't a worthy aspiration storywise, but don't you think that if Nolan was indeed planning on following the three themes you mentioned for each chapter that he would have intended that The Joker be a major player in Batman's finale?

I'm guessing that they chose the standard three act formula and then were at least partly blindsided by just how bloody fantastic and final the second chapter ended up being.

As long as Nolan is sheparding it, I have confidence it will be a good Movie.

I'm sure it will be good. Nolan + Batman = magic. Like you I'm looking forward to the new Batmobile and Batcave. If it wasn't a studio owned property that was guaranteed to keep making more of these until they stop making money and it was just a matter of ending the best Batman story ever then I'd just prefer that they stop now. Is it hypothetically *possible* to make a movie that lives up to TDK or exceeds it? Sure, anything's possible. But odds are it won't even if Ledger was still around, without him its chances are even slimmer.

 

[scubasteve]

Khev, are you inside my head? You are on the EXACT same page that I am!

As much as I loved these two films (and when I say I love them, I mean that they are two of my all time FAVORITE films), I don't really care to see a third. It's not necessary, and it certainly wouldn't be as good, seeing as how available choices from the rogues gallery is somewhat limited in Nolan's world.

And, most of all, Bruce's arc IS complete. He redeemed himself ALREADY through saving Gotham and holding to his father's legacy, in his own, unique way (ala a man dressed as a bat).

As for a third and a new "love interest" -

 

[Buttmunch]

If the third film is about redemption, what villian would that most relate to. Scarecrow was obvious for fear. Joker obvious for escalation. But redemption? Catwoman? Mr. Freeze? Two-face? Not really sure on that one.

 

[EVILFACE]

Would Mr Freeze work in this world?