Official "The Dark Knight" SPOILER Thread

[barbelith]

If you want to throw down the guantlet, let's start with why you believe it is not.

Why would we proceed from the default position that The Dark Knight is a masterpiece? Why are you so insistent that it is but so unwilling to address why?

I do think The Dark Knight is a flawed film, although fantastically made and hugely entertaining. There are two major structural faults: Batman leaving the Joker at the party and the Joker's ultimate fate, which is literally up in the air. This would be fine as a thematic gesture but it's clearly not - we're provided with a completely different climax and in any case we've already seen the police are in the Joker's custody rather than the other way around. Batman's ultimate fate is a needless sacrifice; the script doesn't actually require him to take on Harvey's sins as it would be child's play to cover those up as there are no witnesses anyway. The entire chase sequence is predicated on a ridiculously poor editing decision that shows the driver had no reason to go underground in the first place. And for all the claims of stunning acting, the performance of Batman himself has become the butt of jokes and the ferry scenes feature support acting that belongs on a budget TV show. We won't even get into the vexing issue of the role of women in the Nolan Batman universe.

None of these things detract from the overall presentation of The Dark Knight as popular entertainment but do mitigate against it being an actual masterpiece. Most egregious is the refusal to map the film's basic theme to its logical conclusion; Batman is not shaped or influenced by what the Joker and Two-Face represent. In the end it's a typical superhero runaround presented as something more.

What superhero movie from an all around production standpoint is better and why? What superhero movie deals with it's subject matter as maturely as TDK? What superhero movie has better acting? What superhero movie has a better script? What superhero movie comes closer as a film to being better executed than TDK?

Actually I think several superhero films meet these criteria. Many of the bigger films are equally well made and feature strong performances and interesting scripts. So there must be something else at work in the "masterpiece" stakes. You yourself indicated The Dark Knight would do for film what The Dark Knights Returns and Watchmen did for comics. I'm interested to know what you think that thing is and why.

As far as dealing with its subject matter in a mature manner, I actually believe this is one of the few weaknesses with The Dark Knight. It suffers from the juvenile "gritty = mature" mentality, or at least some of its proponents seem to. For example I think X2 actually presents more complex and relevant themes and addresses them in a more adult manner than The Dark Knight does, ultimately positioning it as the more mature picture. I wouldn't hold it up as a masterpiece, however.

 

[barbelith]

I think it can be said though, that it's a masterpiece in it's cinematic impact. It's entertaining audiences, pulling in viewers that might normally shy from the genre or whatever, causing people to see it multiple times, getting buzz in new and water coolers, raking in the money.

I agree. I wonder though how many us would say the same about Titanic or American Idol.

 

[wofford29]

Masterpieces can be flawed, and The Dark Knight is no exception. What it does however is takes it's source material intelligently and seriously. It respects it's viewer and doesn't play to the lowest common denominator. That doesn't mean it's script is without flaws. It is however a closer representation to perfection in this subgenre of film than any other that preceeded it. The themes of anarchy vs. order, the logic of human nature, the triumph of good and evil, light vs. dark, the dichotomy of situations and characters, the symbology of man vs. hero, the temptation, the list could just go on and on. There is not another "superhero"(I use that term loosely) movie that raises as many relevant questions and makes the audience examine themselves as humans and citizens as the Dark Knight. It doesn't always succeed, but again, it comes closer than any other film in the genre. The fact that it does is a direct correlation to Nolan's script and direction. Nolan in my opinion is one of the few directors that has yet to make a bad film. The Dark Knight is no exception. It's critical success elevates it above any other in it's category. One can argue that means nothing, and try and make some assanine correlation with some useless analogy, but fact of the matter is people are talking about it. Fans are raving about it, general audience members are raving about it, and critics who for the most part usually go against the grain can't seem to find fault in it. The fact that critics and fans alike have been discussing potential rewards over and over again speaks volumes to it's appeal and to it's transcendence of anything that has come before it. The fact that critics are taking this seriously, where they've never in the past done so is already changing the game for this genre. Spiderman 2 hinted at it, Iron Man came close, but The Dark Knight finally elevated it above and beyond a niche crowd into a mass appeal. The fact that they are talking about making the next Superman movie a "dark" film should be clue enough that not only with the critical success, but the financial success of The Dark Knight, be felt around the industry. What other "superhero" movie has had an ensemble cast of the brilliant actors The Dark Knight has enjoyed? There hasn't been one, but I gaurantee you'll start to see a lot more high profile actors wanting to hop on board something now. Nolan landed these actors though because of his script, and the respect with which he went about making his film. The direction is up there with the best that Michael Mann has done. The cinematography is up there with the best of greats like Roger Deakins. It compliments the script and the direction perfectly and really sets the tone for the brilliant score by Howard and Zimmer which captures the essence of each character. I could literally go on and on with different bits, but I graduated years ago and don't feel like doing research papers anymore. In the end it's all opinion, but in mine, while it's not a perfect film, it's certainly closer than anything that's come before it in the subgenre and will influence the direction of others for years to come. In my opinion it's a flawed masterpiece.

 

[barbelith]

What it does however is takes it's source material intelligently and seriously. It respects it's viewer and doesn't play to the lowest common denominator.

Many superhero films have done this - and featured the type of casts you discuss later in your piece. The Dark Knight is hardly revolutionary in this regard.

The themes of anarchy vs. order, the logic of human nature, the triumph of good and evil, light vs. dark, the dichotomy of situations and characters, the symbology of man vs. hero, the temptation, the list could just go on and on.

A list of themes is not the same thing as a critical analysis. How are these themes explored in the film? What do they tell us about ourselves? One of my issues with the "Dark Knight as masterpiece" platform is that the film doesn't really explore these themes to any real degree. It flirts with them the way a high school student confuses identifying the theme of Death of a Salesmen with exploring that theme. And I think this is where many of the more ebullient praises fall down. It feels intellectual but at the end of the day it doesn't actually say much.

There is not another "superhero"(I use that term loosely) movie that raises as many relevant questions and makes the audience examine themselves as humans and citizens as the Dark Knight.

What specifically did The Dark Knight make you examine about your own humanity? What is this list of questions? Which ones are more relevant to the average viewer than, say, the Drake homestead sequence in X2?

 

[Sick Boy 82]

DAMN!! I don't know if that none working ass Mike has posted this up yet (love ya buddy!) but this is seriously cool!

A bunch of Fan-Made art for "the Dark Knight Returns", or whatever they will call the next Batman movie. Some cool stuff. I really, really like Kristen Bell as Harley Quinn for some reason. The last picture seriously just works!

But here it is, thanks to Slashfilm & Firstshowing.net:

Check This Out: More Dark Knight Sequel Fan Art - Harley Quinn!

 

[uscmhicks]

god I want to go and see this again , in fact after hellboy (again ) I just might.

 

[Khev]

I love that The Dark Knight seemingly took Michael Mann's "Heat", added Batman and the Joker and transcended both genres in the process. Incredible.

 

[wofford29]

Many superhero films have done this - and featured the type of casts you discuss later in your piece. The Dark Knight is hardly revolutionary in this regard.

Name one.

A list of themes is not the same thing as a critical analysis. How are these themes explored in the film? What do they tell us about ourselves? One of my issues with the "Dark Knight as masterpiece" platform is that the film doesn't really explore these themes to any real degree. It flirts with them the way a high school student confuses identifying the theme of Death of a Salesmen with exploring that theme. And I think this is where many of the more ebullient praises fall down. It feels intellectual but at the end of the day it doesn't actually say much.

A list of themes is absolutely analysis. A logical thinker can put 2 and 2 together if they've seen the film. I think I'd rather not spend my time writing a research paper on a toy message board about Batman themes. The film goes above and beyond exploring it's themes. Not being able to pick up on them lies with you as a viewer.

What specifically did The Dark Knight make you examine about your own humanity? What is this list of questions? Which ones are more relevant to the average viewer than, say, the Drake homestead sequence in X2?

That's for you to answer. What good would sharing my introspection on a movie serve you who obviously got nothing from it? Though critically speaking of X2 the only thought the film brought to my mind is boy this movie can't end fast enough.

To be honest, there's just no point in discussing with you barbie. You obviously take pride in your soap box. You're great at throwing out a billion and one different examples but have yet to stage an arguement in support of ONE film that is a more complete and better film than The Dark Knight. Which is the premise of your arguement.

 

[scubasteve]

Name one.

That's all I'm waiting for him to do..

 

[wofford29]

That's all I'm waiting for him to do..

I'm sure it'll be X-men, because honestly there isn't another "superhero" movie with an ensemble cast. I hope it's a better answer though becuase you've got Ian McKellen and Halle Berry at her worst in that series. That's it though.

 

[MaulFan]

I love that The Dark Knight seemingly took Michael Mann's "Heat", added Batman and the Joker and transcended both genres in the process. Incredible.

It really did. Pacino-Deniro and Bale-Ledger face to face in each respective movie is just awesomeness, the quality of their dialoguing together is just fantastic. Good and evil together, each mutually respecting what the other is capable of, realizing they're necessary to justify what each does, just awesomeness.

 

[barbelith]

Name one.

It's really a question of which ones haven't had these sort of actors. It's worth remembering Batman Begins really catapulted Christian Bale to the A list and not the other way around. You had Morgan Freeman and to a lesser extent Liam Neeson in there to give the movie star wattage. Heath Ledger similarly saw a posthumous career boost with The Dark Knight. He wasn't considered A list when he signed on and his only real critical plaudits at that point were for Brokeback Mountain (and of course common wisdom at the time basically boiled down to "Him? Really?!"). Michael Caine, Maggie Gyllenhaal and Aaron Eckhart are respected actors but (prior to this film) not exactly A list either.

We actually see this mixture of star power and critically acclaimed performers in a good many superhero films:

Batman
Jack Nicholson
Kim Basinger

Batman Returns
Danny DeVito
Michelle Pfeiffer

Batman Forever
Val Kilmer
Tommy Lee Jones
Jim Carrey
Nicole Kidman
Drew Barrymore

Batman and Robin
George Clooney
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Uma Thurman
Alicia Silverstone

So then we move away from the Batman films and look at two earlier superhero films that took their subjects seriously:

X-Men
Patrick Stewart
Ian McKellan
Halle Berry

Spider-Man
Tobey McGuire
Kirsten Dunst
Willem Dafoe

So we see The Dark Knight is not groundbreaking in this regard. There's so much money at play in these movies they can't really afford to not have a mix of A list stars and respected actors. And of course these Marvel films and the first Batman join with Ang Lee's Hulk and a few other pictures to put the lie to the claim that Nolan's film was the first to take its material seriously.

Now of course the obvious retort is that Oscar-winning actor X was terrible in this film and that A list mega star Y was terrible in that film and so on. So really you have to make your mind up whether we're talking about performances or the celebrity cast itself. Neither is new nor unique with The Dark Knight.

A list of themes is absolutely analysis.

A list of themes is an F paper precisely because it's not analysis.

That's for you to answer.

"Your honor, my client is innocent!"
"On what grounds?"
"That's for you to answer."

But you've got balls for trying those last two in a public forum, I'll give you that.

 

[barbelith]

It really did. Pacino-Deniro and Bale-Ledger face to face in each respective movie is just awesomeness, the quality of their dialoguing together is just fantastic. Good and evil together, each mutually respecting what the other is capable of, realizing they're necessary to justify what each does, just awesomeness.

Absolutely! The interrogation room scene in particular is amazing. Ledger deserves an Oscar in my opinion.

 

[barbelith]

You're great at throwing out a billion and one different examples but have yet to stage an arguement in support of ONE film that is a more complete and better film than The Dark Knight. Which is the premise of your arguement.

It's not actually the premise of my argument at all. A cannibal stripper film that's better than all other cannibal stripper films in not therefore a de facto masterpiece.

 

[wofford29]

It's really a question of which ones haven't had these sort of actors. It's worth remembering Batman Begins really catapulted Christian Bale to the A list and not the other way around. You had Morgan Freeman and to a lesser extent Liam Neeson in there to give the movie star wattage. Heath Ledger similarly saw a posthumous career boost with The Dark Knight. He wasn't considered A list when he signed on and his only real critical plaudits at that point were for Brokeback Mountain (and of course common wisdom at the time basically boiled down to "Him? Really?!"). Michael Caine, Maggie Gyllenhaal and Aaron Eckhart are respected actors but (prior to this film) not exactly A list either.

We actually see this mixture of star power and critically acclaimed performers in a good many superhero films:

Batman
Jack Nicholson
Kim Basinger

Batman Returns
Danny DeVito
Michelle Pfeiffer

Batman Forever
Val Kilmer
Tommy Lee Jones
Jim Carrey
Nicole Kidman
Drew Barrymore

Batman and Robin
George Clooney
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Uma Thurman
Alicia Silverstone

So then we move away from the Batman films and look at two earlier superhero films that took their subjects seriously:

X-Men
Patrick Stewart
Ian McKellan
Halle Berry

Spider-Man
Tobey McGuire
Kirsten Dunst
Willem Dafoe

So we see The Dark Knight is not groundbreaking in this regard. There's so much money at play in these movies they can't really afford to not have a mix of A list stars and respected actors. And of course these Marvel films and the first Batman join with Ang Lee's Hulk and a few other pictures to put the lie to the claim that Nolan's film was the first to take its material seriously.

Now of course the obvious retort is that Oscar-winning actor X was terrible in this film and that A list mega star Y was terrible in that film and so on. So really you have to make your mind up whether we're talking about performances or the celebrity cast itself. Neither is new nor unique with The Dark Knight.

Out of everyone you listed there is maybe 5 critically acclaimed actors. I'm not really sure your point about main stream recognition, because I'm sure you're a fan of film, and a fan of film would know that popularity with the public isn't a correlation to their critical success or talent. Although based on your list you do seem to be confused in that aspect.

A list of themes is an F paper precisely because it's not analysis.

Which again plays to my point that I've got better things to do than write a research paper to justify my opinion on a toy board. Can't be any more clear on that.

"Your honor, my client is innocent!"
"On what grounds?"
"That's for you to answer."

But you've got balls for trying those last two in a public forum, I'll give you that.

Again, just like your pointless and completely irrelevant Britney Spears remarks from before, your point holds no merit. Anyone can sit around and try to philosophically come up with some skewed analogy in their head and try to apply it to an arguement. I'm not on trial, what point would it serve you to give you what I got out of the film? Is it going to change your opinion because of questions it raised in my mind? Are you going to spontaneously see the light and some how be effected by anothers introspective take on themes in a film? As highly as you obviously hold yourself up what is the point that it's going to get across? Nothing, other than the fact that it still raises many questions in my opinion and none in yours? All that can and has been accomplished by stating exactly whats been stated already.

 

[wofford29]

It's not actually the premise of my argument at all. A cannibal stripper film that's better than all other cannibal stripper films in not therefore a de facto masterpiece.

All illiteracy aside, if you go back into the original thread you started this arguement, which ironcially is labeled "Rate the best superhero movie," and read your posts, your arguement this entire time is that The Dark Knight is not the best superhero movie and for someone to explain to you why. Yet you've still not shared with the world your own opinion of what is and why. The premise of a masterpiece is after the fact and just a sandbox for you to try and pontificate and get a point across when you've yet to formulate your own. It goes both ways. I can sit here and ask you why all night, but the Michael Moore style of arguement will always be just that.

 

[barbelith]

Out of everyone you listed there is maybe 5 critically acclaimed actors.

That list features 11 Academy Award winners and nominees. We're looking at perhaps five people there who haven't won critical acclaim in their careers.

I'm not really sure your point about main stream recognition, because I'm sure you're a fan of film, and a fan of film would know that popularity with the public isn't a correlation to their critical success or talent. Although based on your list you do seem to be confused in that aspect.

There's no confusion at all. If you read what I wrote you'll see I separate out star power from critical acclaim as separate things.

Which again plays to my point that I've got better things to do than write a research paper to justify my opinion on a toy board.

And fair enough. But if you really feel that way, why do you have more than one post in this thread? You're very vocal about sharing your opinion but when it comes to supporting it you clam up. What's the point in having a discussion about something interesting like your claim The Dark Knight is the Watchmen of film if you're never going to actually unpack that statement and consider what it means?

Again, just like your pointless and completely irrelevant Britney Spears remarks from before, your point holds no merit.

It's not irrelevant at all. Either mainstream popularity is a gauge of quality or it isn't. If you use box office to argue this shows The Dark Knight is "better" than another film you must also be arguing amazing record sales show Britney Spears is "better" than another performer. But of course you would never do this. Nobody sane would. And so the box office argument is null and void, which we already knew because few people here would turn around and talk about how Titanic is a masterpiece that's "better" than The Dark Knight. Or the few dozen other films that have outgrossed The Dark Knight adjusted for inflation.

I'm not on trial, what point would it serve you to give you what I got out of the film? Is it going to change your opinion because of questions it raised in my mind?

Yes. That's how discussions work.

All illiteracy aside

Don't give that up now! It's all you have going for you!

your arguement this entire time is that The Dark Knight is not the best superhero movie and for someone to explain to you why. Yet you've still not shared with the world your own opinion of what is and why.

I have, actually. Pop back into the other thread and see if you can find it.

The premise of a masterpiece is after the fact

Several people have questioned why some people are calling The Dark Knight a masterpiece of cinema. Nobody here has risen to the occasion and explained why. I suspect this is because they are incapable of doing so. We live in an age where critical thought is a rare beast and lists of themes are mistaken for exploration of themes. But then there are still people who think Transformers is a good movie, so what can you do but smile?

 

[wofford29]

Good job barbie it only took you nearly half an hour to formulate a thought.

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14 minutes and running on your post modification. Come on brain work...work!

 

[jml969]

Not sure if someone posted these...more fan made Batman 3 posters:

https://bamkapow.com/even-more-batman-3-fan-posters--1784-p.html

 

[barbelith]

Good job barbie it only took you nearly half an hour to formulate a thought.

It's probably time to introduce you to the words "tabbed browsing" and "multitasking." But well done on another post that skips out on addressing any actual issues.