Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (12/16/16) *SPOILERS*

[Khev]

Whether you like the SE additions (and the PT) in terms of story or not, what I mean is FX execution - Knoll's job.

SE Jabba looked awful in both the theatrical and home video releases (they took two shots at it, both equally poorly done) - that's what I mean in terms of Knoll and the OT. Whether it was necessary or a "because we can and it would be cool," the idea of a CGI Jabba added to the D94 scene could have worked from a technical point of view, but the CGI was so phony it destroyed any chance of it working.

John Knoll's SE babies were the updated X-Wings (which looked fantastic.) Lead animator for the 1997 Jabba was Steve "Spaz" Williams who worked under CG Supervisor Joe Letteri before the final shots were ultimately approved by Lucas. Not much Knoll can do if Lucas assigns a certain effect to someone else and then says "Good enough" to a crappy rendition. Williams was gone by 2004 for the updated Jabba, I assume the new one was done by Rob Coleman.

I'd say that based on Rogue One Lucas was holding Knoll back. Knoll was in charge of the utterly brilliant Davy Jones visuals in POTC 2 and was commissioned by James Cameron to oversee Avatar pyrotechnic effects (which also looked amazing) when Weta got stretched too thin.

 

[Rorywan]

And lest not forget Photoshop?!?!

 

[TaliBane]

John Knoll's SE babies were the updated X-Wings (which looked fantastic.) Lead animator for the 1997 Jabba was Steve "Spaz" Williams who worked under CG Supervisor Joe Letteri before the final shots were ultimately approved by Lucas. Not much Knoll can do if Lucas assigns a certain effect to someone else and then says "Good enough" to a crappy rendition. Williams was gone by 2004 for the updated Jabba, I assume the new one was done by Rob Coleman.

I'd say that based on Rogue One Lucas was holding Knoll back. Knoll was in charge of the utterly brilliant Davy Jones visuals in POTC 2 and was commissioned by James Cameron to oversee Avatar pyrotechnic effects (which also looked amazing) when Weta got stretched too thin.

My point was that I was unclear on how a guy who had little to do with the OT (other than being a FX supervisor on an OT rendition many fans would like to see erased) would make RO feel more "legit."





I just watched a great series of cut scenes from ROTJ - where the Emperor orders the Death Star to open fire on the (Endor) Imperial complex on the planet below where a small group of Rebels have staged a daring incursion. An officer says in response - "but we have garrisons down there" but the order stands firm. This follows a sequence where the small Rebel band has taken a stolen Imperial shuttle to the Imperial shield gateway protecting the planet and Imperial facility, and a tense scene plays out where the Rebels in the cockpit wonder if the code they have will be accepted.

Sound familiar?


As the ol' signature would say.......

 

[Khev]

I just watched a great series of cut scenes from ROTJ - where the Emperor orders the Death Star to open fire on the (Endor) Imperial complex on the planet below where a small group of Rebels have staged a daring incursion. An officer says in response - "but we have garrisons down there" but the order stands firm. This follows a sequence where the small Rebel band has taken a stolen Imperial shuttle to the Imperial shield gateway protecting the planet and Imperial facility, and a tense scene plays out where the Rebels in the cockpit wonder if the code they have will be accepted.

Sound familiar?

Did you really need to watch deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi in order to recognize the parallels between the Battle of Scarif and the Battle of Endor? I thought those would have been obvious to anyone on their first viewing. In fact one of the things I liked about RO was that it suggested that the Emperor deliberately staged a fake Scarif situation at Endor in order to bait the Alliance into trying to repeat their earlier success.

Kind of like Hans Gruber anticipating and even welcoming the FBI to user their own playbook to meet his specific needs.

 

[TaliBane]

Did you really need to watch deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi in order to recognize the parallels between the Battle of Scarif and the Battle of Endor? I thought those would have been obvious to anyone on their first viewing. In fact one of the things I liked about RO was that it suggested that the Emperor deliberately staged a fake Scarif situation at Endor in order to bait the Alliance into trying to repeat their earlier success.

Kind of like Hans Gruber anticipating and even welcoming the FBI to user their own playbook to meet his specific needs.

Oh obvious on the first viewing, but the deleted scenes make it oh-so-specific where one of the three key OT Imperial baddies orders the Death Star to fire on an Imperial base on the planet below that has a Rebel incursion. That's not in ROTJ - but unbeknownst to most regular fans, it originally was - and was actually filmed and edited in.


And... you mean the Rebel grunts going down to Endor in yet another stolen Imperial Shuttle, overhearing the transmission of yet another shield code, didn't nervously say to each other "er, umm... we did the EXACT SAME thing on Scarif - don't you think the Emperor might have figured this out and set a trap for us this time?" And his buddy furrows his brow and goes "Hmmm..."

"Deliberately staged" - and the genius-tool Rebels didn't see it coming. DOH!!


And Hans would be smart enough not to take over a high rise building using the exact same ruse as he did the previous year and expect the FBI not to have learned. He may not be an exceptional thief, but he's not an idiot - as the Endor Rebel detachment seems to be.

 

[Khev]

Well I never claimed that Rebels in ROTJ were geniuses. The contrast in their declining wisdom between RO and ROTJ (if you take them sequentially as far as the in-universe timeline) is pretty severe. In RO the Alliance council was literally worried that Jyn had been fed false information in order to lure them all to their deaths. In ROTJ? Not even a consideration.

But in a weird way them getting sloppier and sloppier as their victories mounted actually makes a little bit of sense. TFA even continues that trend. They've destroyed so many Death Stars by that point that Han is all "eh there's always a way to blow it up, I'll take this kid and I'm sure he'll give me some specifics as to how when we arrive." It's not that they were pressed for time and had to improvise but rather how cavalier they were about the whole affair. In some ways it's a bit annoying, in some ways it's kind of funny (in a good way,) and in some ways it's actually a bit realistic. One group does all the heavy lifting and makes the most severe sacrifices and then each generation removed kind of coasts on the momentum of what came before, sometimes to their detriment or even downfall. The Emperor in ROTJ tried to use that to his advantage and were it not for a bunch of carnivorous teddy bears (groan) would have succeeded.

 

[TaliBane]

Well, this kind of taps into a major internal battle that rages in me about RO (that I'm sure you're picking up on) - I've seen it many times now, and liked it way more than TFA, and I agree that we finally got a film that I would allow into the Pantheon of SW Goodness (only members - OT.) And no, TFA was fine, but to me it didn't enter that hallowed place after the glee of "it's WAY better than the PT!" wore off.

But as I said before, at the same time, the more I saw RO - yes, enjoying it - there was this sneaking suspicion that I was watching something akin to the BTTF2 scenes that take place "just around the corner" from BTTF scenes occurring in the same timeline. Like Han and Chewy could have bumped into Jyn just as easily as Walrusman.

This "movie within a movie" thing was something new in Star Wars - and I thought that it was exciting (hey, movies set INSIDE the OT!!) but also a commentary on both the movie industry and where Star Wars is today; solely trading on nostalgia, original ideas a distant memory. That the PT may have s*cked but at least it was trying something original - not co-opting the OT timeline and frenetically blurring OT iconography and characters together to bamboozle but delight fans.

And at the same, just as my geek chorus of buddies gloated over new explanations for how the ANH DS was blown up so "conveniently easily," with each viewing a growing list was forming in my head of things that not only didn't make sense when compared to ANH, but kind of messed up my perception of ANH in subtle ways (and yes, I will be posting that list)

So I then began to think - is the only path into the Pantheon of OT Goodness to have filmmakers literally place stories inside the OT and call it a "new movie"? As I said earlier, are we heading for a gritty ESB prequel (and I still love "Bothan One") that is set in the shadow of ESB - a battle to destroy the AT-AT factory readying for Hoth, a sneak into Bespin where an Imperial (with an early SW drafts name like Whills we all recognize and go "ah-ha!") is courting Lando, and someone ventures onto Dagobah trying to assassinate Yoda because the Emperor has foreseen Luke's arrival? I mean I LOVE-LOVE-LOVE that - but... isn't that just a big budget fan film like we've seen on Youtube for years, set in an unseen corner of the OT? Or not? Maybe it's just what SW needs. Maybe it's exactly what I want SW to be, because I really liked RO, and that's what it is. I don't know.

The Blu-Ray is out in April, so I guess RO in the rear view is about to hit us. And it'll be interesting to see where all this ends up.

 

[jye4ever]

Wow great post Taliban errr Talibane.

 

[Prime Clone]

This "movie within a movie" thing was something new in Star Wars - and I thought that it was exciting (hey, movies set INSIDE the OT!!) but also a commentary on both the movie industry and where Star Wars is today; solely trading on nostalgia, original ideas a distant memory. That the PT may have s*cked but at least it was trying something original - not co-opting the OT timeline and frenetically blurring OT iconography and characters together to bamboozle but delight fans.

I'm with you on that. I'll return to my old mantra: TFA (and now RO) = better made, PT = more original.

As for Knoll's legit-ness, I guess I was referring to his being of the LFL (relatively) old school. But I guess most of them are still there, from Kathleen Kennedy down to Doug Chiang, Dave Filoni etc. For better and worse.

 

[Khev]

I'll return to my old mantra: TFA (and now RO) = better made, PT = more original.

"If only saying it made it true." --Governor Tarkin, Rogue One



Rogue One is exactly the SW movie I've always wanted, hell in some ways it's better than the movie I've always wanted because I never really dreamed that it would even be possible to have a "tack on" movie to the OT that not only fits perfectly (more or less) but also elevates the original three films. I got the grittier tone I was always hoping to see, I got all my 80's James Cameronisms mixed with SW (complete with nukes, NUKES! ), yeah, I'm good.

I'm sure there's a good chance that Disney will take the success of RO and run spin-off movies into the ground, making tons of new movies that link to the OT in stupid ways, but those will be easy to ignore no matter how many misfires they make from here on out. I'll always have RO/SW/ESB/ROTJ.

The only thing that would have made RO perfect would have been if they somehow had stock footage from 1976 of Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia being handed something that they could have inserted into the film like they did with Red and Gold Leader instead of being stuck trying to recreate her face in the computer.

 

[DiFabio]

"If only saying it made it true." --Governor Tarkin, Rogue One



Rogue One is exactly the SW movie I've always wanted, hell in some ways it's better than the movie I've always wanted because I never really dreamed that it would even be possible to have a "tack on" movie to the OT that not only fits perfectly (more or less) but also elevates the original three films. I got the grittier tone I was always hoping to see, I got all my 80's James Cameronisms mixed with SW (complete with nukes, NUKES! ), yeah, I'm good.

I'm sure there's a good chance that Disney will take the success of RO and run spin-off movies into the ground, making tons of new movies that link to the OT in stupid ways, but those will be easy to ignore no matter how many misfires they make from here on out. I'll always have RO/SW/ESB/ROTJ.

The only thing that would have made RO perfect would have been if they somehow had stock footage from 1976 of Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia being handed something that they could have inserted into the film like they did with Red and Gold Leader instead of being stuck trying to recreate her face in the computer.

Calm down.

 

[Darkseed]

Finally read the novelization...it was great added even more perspective and insight to many characters.

Actually enjoyed Saw's portrayal in the book where didn't care for him in the film

 

[Khev]

Calm down.

I was *this* close to calming down and then they announce that Felicity Jones will be attending Celebration Orlando.

 

[Prime Clone]

"If only saying it made it true." --Governor Tarkin, Rogue One

"More" original doesn't mean "totally" original - just more original than the new films!

 

[matticus]

"More" original doesn't mean "totally" original - just more original than the new films!

Which is really Disney just recycling Star Wars to consumers, yet we all eat it up....

 

[Prime Clone]

Which is really Disney just recycling Star Wars to consumers, yet we all eat it up....

We do. But I'm wondering how much longer they can milk it. Think TLJ will move in a new direction.

 

[DiFabio]

I was *this* close to calming down and then they announce that Felicity Jones will be attending Celebration Orlando.

You gonna try to hit it bro?

Carrie Fisher tried to yub my nub at Celebration V back in 2010. Or maybe it was Mark Hamill, I can't remember.

 

[Khev]

You gonna try to hit it bro?

Absolutely! I know that celebrity hookups with fans who pay to meet them in autograph lines are very common so I figure my chances are good.

 

[rushmore223]

Absolutely! I know that celebrity hookups with fans who pay to meet them in autograph lines are very common so I figure my chances are good.

She'll autograph something else for a little extra.

 

[jodl73]

I'm sorry if someone already brought this up. At the end of the movie when Vader demonstrated his lightsaber skills and the use of the Force really took me by surprise. But then why don't we see that anymore during ANH, ESB, ROTJ? His skills versus Obi-Wan in ANH, and vs. Luke in ESB and ROTJ were lackluster in comparison. That scene in Rogue One was the first time we've seen Vader in full force, in costume.