Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (12/16/16) *SPOILERS*

[Khev]

You're straw-manning my perspective here. I think that Star Wars films should follow the spirit of the originals, if we're going to get more of them at all (though personally, I think I would be just as well off with nothing apart from the original films). But the motivation for this film was to pour over every reference to the acquisition of the rebel plans, insert all those as areas that fans could point to and, like the Red Letter guys point out, say "hey, I remember that!" or "I understood that reference!" The whole movie was set up to appeal to people on this level. When I saw those guys from the bar walking in the street, and the R2 and 3PO cameos, it became inarguable. Obviously, there is a big audience for this, and its the commercially smart thing to do. But it cheapens the whole endeavor. Force Awakens was more or less the same thing, which was my major issue with it from the get-go, though I think it is a fun, well made movie. And this isn't just a Star Wars thing, as we see this all over. Something like Split is an example of how you do this right IMO. You create a movie in the universe of another, but it's creative and original. Unfortunately, I can easily see the proposed sequel going the other way, where they try to appeal to everyone on nostalgic levels to such an extent that it cheapens the originality, and lessens the quality of the new product.

Two cameos that totaled about 20 total seconds made it "inarguable" that the entire 2 hr 13 min film was set up to be nothing but fan service references to ANH? Come on now. You're better than that kara.

That's like saying Bale's "I'm Batman" line made Begins one giant Batman 89 fan service movie.

 

[karamazov80]

CG Tarkin is just something that people harp on *who didn't like the film anyway.* I don't see him being this big sticking point with people who enjoyed it. He certainly wasn't a "Talia's death" where even the most diehard fans of the movie go "yeah, that absolutely sucked."

There was literally nothing they could have done that would *not* have been jarring. Peter Cushing is dead. No look alike actor would ever make me forget that. No prosthetic Peter Cushing mask would make me forget it. No over the shoulder camera shots or through the bathroom stall shots would make me forget that. Every scene would just be a cover for the fact that he's dead.

So, since "jarring" was a foregone conclusion from the get go what were they left with? Not have Tarkin in the movie? Even that would have still felt like they were doing something to avoid the obvious. So they might as well embrace the fact that we all know the real guy wasn't going to make an appearance and just put him into the story as naturally as they could. Could they have gone too far? Yes. If he had Krennic's prominence that would have been too much. But as a side character who's a thorn in the side of the real villain I and seemingly everyone who enjoyed the film (I'm sure there are exceptions) thought he worked great.

And what's better is that now whenever I *do* watch the real Peter Cushing in ANH he seems ever more badass. Win/win.

As I posted earlier, I don't disagree with you in the sense that there was no perfect solution here. But that doesn't make CG Tarkin look any better. It's better than the terrible attempt we saw in Tron, but light years behind what they did with RDJ in Civil War. But for me, if it distracts the viewer from the film (and it honestly did for me), then better to go with some other approach. Maybe I am an aberration in this case, but I think I would be able to admit that a CG person looks bad even if I like a film.

Two cameos that totaled about 20 total seconds made it "inarguable" that the entire 2 hr 13 min film was set up to be nothing but fan service references to ANH? Come on now. You're better than that kara.

As I was arguing, this was illustrative of the whole, and reinforced my fears about what they were doing here.

 

[DiFabio]

Two cameos that totaled about 20 total seconds made it "inarguable" that the entire 2 hr 13 min film was set up to be nothing but fan service references to ANH? Come on now. You're better than that kara.

Kara was clearly indicating that those two were the ones that broke the camels back and were two of just many examples of what he's talking about. You're not dense, you knew what he meant.


I mean hell, don't forget that there are also literal reused shots of Rebel pilots taken directly from 1977. That's as "memba them??" tier as it gets.

 

[RIDDICK]

Princess Leia and her merry band of misfits were filthy communists.

Pfff...

 

[Khev]

As I was arguing, this was illustrative of the whole, and reinforced my fears about what they were doing here.

Yes and this whole little RLM narrative is that if you don't openly contradict the universe you're in then it's nothing more than a weak play for fan service. I understand the claim that's being made, I just don't buy it in the slightest.

 

[Khev]

I mean hell, don't forget that there is also literal shots of Rebel pilots taken directly from 1977. That's literally "memba them??" Tier.

Bam! You just proved my point about Tarkin. You can't get any better than real footage of the living actors themselves and even *that* gets criticized. If the same characters don't appear in both films then it supposedly proves how disconnected they are from one another. If they do have the same characters in both films, even perfect footage of the same actors from the same era, then it's this giant "memba" moment. You guys might think you're on to something with the selective logic and double standards but we ain't buying it.

 

[karamazov80]

Yes and this whole little RLM narrative is that if you don't openly contradict the universe you're in then it's nothing more than a weak play for fan service. I understand the claim that's being made, I just don't buy it in the slightest.

That's certainly not my take on it. Insert things from the original if it makes sense to do so in pursuit of the larger story. But it seems like they built the story around those things in this case. That's why Tarkin's inclusion makes sense to me, and I empathize with their struggle on how to handle it, though I can be critical of the technical execution. Being contrarian for the sake of it would be just as problematic, though I think the new Star Wars movies do go out of their way to avoid stuff from the prequels for this reason--they do NOT want to be associated with anything there, even if technically, they are Star Wars canon now. Getting Jimmy Smits to show up being one exception, though he's something prequel haters don't seem to dwell on.

 

[Khev]

I agree that TFA took the "no prequels" mindset to a fault by not only running from the PT but by doing it in a way that just repeated too much of the OT.

It is possible to not be the PT without straight up copying the OT. RO proved that. As Gareth said he "looked to the original as inspiration, not a template."

 

[karamazov80]

Bam! You just proved my point about Tarkin. You can't get any better than real footage of the living actors themselves and even *that* gets criticized. If the same characters don't appear in both films then it supposedly proves how disconnected they are from one another. If they do have the same characters in both films, even perfect footage of the same actors from the same era, then it's this giant "memba" moment. You guys might think you're on to something with the selective logic and double standards but we ain't buying it.

But why did we need the same characters from A New Hope? Did it really make sense in that story, or seem forced? To a defender of this film, I'm sure it's the former (and I'm sure there is a ready made excuse--they were the best pilots available, etc.). But if the rebels only had 20 or 30 pilots they could use for all their missions, I would be concerned with their prospects for success against the Empire.

It is possible to not be the PT without straight up copying the OT. RO proved that. As Gareth said he "looked to the original as inspiration, not a template."

The Gareth doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[DiFabio]

Bam! You just proved my point about Tarkin. You can't get any better than real footage of the living actors themselves and even *that* gets criticized. If the same characters don't appear in both films then it supposedly proves how disconnected they are from one another. If they do have the same characters in both films, even perfect footage of the same actors from the same era, then it's this giant "memba" moment. You guys might think you're on to something with the selective logic and double standards but we ain't buying it.

You didn't prove anything. You're just reiterating your same conclusions again. We could say, "ROGUE ONE SUCKS" and you'd be like "see? see?, you're wrong and I'm right!" at this point.

You're the Dennis Nedry of Rogue One fans! Stop pointing at us and cackling, it's not attractive!

Yes and this whole little RLM narrative is that if you don't openly contradict the universe you're in then it's nothing more than a weak play for fan service. I understand the claim that's being made, I just don't buy it in the slightest.

I bet you loved their famous prequel analysis tho.

In fact, I remember a certain WEEJedi getting upset when anyone would use the "RLM narrative" as to why the prequels weren't good. I mean, I would even use a few examples from videos against him.

I mean what don't you buy, that Kara actually feels the way he does? WUT. He's making a sound argument that many people have made, even before RLM. It's like what people say about Rey being a Mary Sue, it's a real criticism backed by numerous examples. Kara doesn't strike me as the type to be a mindless sheep or a hater, so I'm pretty sure his views are coming from how he personally felt. So what don't you buy DAMMIT!?

 

[Khev]

But why did we need the same characters from A New Hope?

They didn't need to bring back all the original pilots of course. And the fact that other than Red and Gold Leader everyone else was new does indicate that they have more than just 20 or 30 total pilots. But one cool thing they did by bringing back Red and Gold Leader (as opposed to say, Wedge, who arguably would have been a bigger fan favorite) is that now for the first time in SW we have pilots that survived one space battle but died in another one. All other battles featured "one and done" pilots who appear only to die or Luke and Wedge at the other end of the extreme who survive every single battle. Very cool to have some guys survive one and then get taken out in another.

Once again it just adds more gravitas to ANH, specifically the DS attack in this case.

 

[karamazov80]

If that were the only thing, I would probably agree with you actually. Because of course, you get a natural connection and continuation across stories like that. But for me, it was just more to speak to what I saw as the big problem I've been blathering about here. There were so many "easter eggs" spread throughout, not just a couple of subtle nods where it felt really natural. But of course, it's just my opinion. I would prefer the Star Wars movies take another path, but they've got no motivation to do so. I'll still watch them, but probably not more than once.

 

[Khev]

I bet you loved their famous prequel analysis tho.

In fact, I remember a certain WEEJedi getting upset when anyone would use the "RLM narrative" as to why the prequels weren't good. I mean, I would even use a few examples from videos against him.

Of course I loved their PT analyses because those were on point. That's the thing with some of you, you feel that you have to either embrace everything or dismiss everything. RLM's review of TPM and AOTC were hilarious *and* on the mark. By the time they got to ROTS I did notice signs of his logic slipping though. So I have no problem recognizing good commentary on one issue and totally off the mark commentary on another, even if it's from the same person.

Heck you even make a decent point every once in a while.

 

[karamazov80]

I think the Red Letter guys were dead wrong about X-Men: Apocalypse

 

[Khev]

If that were the only thing, I would probably agree with you actually. Because of course, you get a natural connection and continuation across stories like that. But for me, it was just more to speak to what I saw as the big problem I've been blathering about here. There were so many "easter eggs" spread throughout. But of course, it's just my opinion. I would prefer the Star Wars movies take another path, but they've got no motivation to do so. I'll still watch them, but probably not more than once.

All right let me ask you this. And I realize that maybe the topic isn't worth your time or energy to respond. But out of curiosity (and forgive me if you have stated it before, possibly during the TFA discussions last year) if you were given charge of SW and could greenlight any movies you wanted, Saga films, stand-alones, Old Republic era, you name it, how would you go about it? I'm not asking to pick apart your response I'm just curious so as to better understand how RO missed the mark for you.

 

[jye4ever]

What Khev said.

What Cocoboloboy agreed with

What Cocoboloboy and a-dev agreed with

 

[karamazov80]

All right let me ask you this. And I realize that maybe the topic isn't worth your time or energy to respond. But out of curiosity (and forgive me if you have stated it before, possibly during the TFA discussions last year) if you were given charge of SW and could greenlight any movies you wanted, Saga films, stand-alones, Old Republic era, you name it, how would you go about it? I'm not asking to pick apart your response I'm just curious so as to better understand how RO missed the mark for you.

First off, I would find a great writer and director, who weren't overly nostalgic about the franchise to do it, and ideally someone who wasn't very familiar with them beyond their cultural significance (because no one is immune to this). Then, I would try to buffer them from the commercial interests of Disney's marketing team, and I would also try to buffer them from the rabid fan-base (both obvious impossibilities in the industry, because it would be way too risky). I would give them the original films as reference material, and tell them to do create a story that was in the spirit of those films, and connected with them directly where it made sense, but to do something new and interesting. Of course, they would need to consult with the guys making other films to make sure that they didn't step on each others' toes and/or contradict each other.

Who knows what the result would be at that point? It could be hundreds of years before Episode 4. It could be hundreds of years in the future. It could be in an area of that galaxy we haven't seen, that was impacted somehow by the Empire or the rebellion. But I think the universe Lucas created was amazing and has a lot of value. Commercializing it to the Nth degree has its drawbacks, though. Could the attempts I'm suggesting fail horribly? Sure. I think Prometheus is an example of this happening, though it was the original creator at the helm. But it could also be something really great.

Again, this could never happen, so this is an ideal situation for me. But I think you can go too far in the other direction.

 

[DiFabio]

Of course I loved their PT analyses because those were on point. That's the thing with some of you, you feel that you have to either embrace everything or dismiss everything. RLM's review of TPM and AOTC were hilarious *and* on the mark. By the time they got to ROTS I did notice signs of his logic slipping though. So I have no problem recognizing good commentary on one issue and totally off the mark commentary on another, even if it's from the same person.

Heck you even make a decent point every once in a while.

As far as "membas" go, I think RLM is too harsh with including things like X-Wings and Tie Fighters or the Death Star. Those are all things of the era that's appropriate for a story about the plans being stolen.

The rest, nah, it's just as bad as the forced references in the Star Wars and Hobbit prequels. That's why I tend to not like prequels in general really. They're uncreative and the call backs never feel appropriate. If anything it makes the world feel smaller by connecting everything to it. It's like they're only there to get the audience to clap like trained seals and think to themselves, "OH, I REMEMBER THAT!"





Do you remember, the opening of Star Wars?








Do you remember, when Luke was on Tatoonie?






Do you remember, when Uncle Owen farmed?







Do you remember, that milk from Aunt Beru's bar?





Do you remember, that place where Luke and his folks ate?






Do you remember, that time the Stormtrooper hit his head?

Do you remember, these two fruity droids?






Do you remember, those cute AT-AT's?










Do you remember, Walrusman and Dr. Evazan?











Ba de ya - say do you remember
Ba de ya - the same movie, released every December
Ba de ya - never original in any kind of way


Ba duda, ba duda, ba duda, badu
Ba duda, badu, ba duda, badu


Ba de ya - every ****ing December
Ba de ya - making sure you remember
Ba de ya - Star Wars forever and ever

 

[Wor-Gar]

Greatest song. Fun to look at SW membas with it playing.

But you missed so many membas. Jango Fett and Boba Fett for one. Death Stars and Starkiller Base. Old Han. Old Leia. Old Luke. Young Chewbacca. Young Yoda. Young Owen and Beru. It goes on and on.

Dance to the memba!




BTW: in the song, does he say: I remember.... holdin' hands with your mom.

 

[Khev]

First off, I would find a great writer and director, who weren't overly nostalgic about the franchise to do it, and ideally someone who wasn't very familiar with them beyond their cultural significance (because no one is immune to this). Then, I would try to buffer them from the commercial interests of Disney's marketing team, and I would also try to buffer them from the rabid fan-base (both obvious impossibilities in the industry, because it would be way too risky). I would give them the original films as reference material, and tell them to do create a story that was in the spirit of those films, and connected with them directly where it made sense, but to do something new and interesting. Of course, they would need to consult with the guys making other films to make sure that they didn't step on each others' toes and/or contradict each other.

Who knows what the result would be at that point? It could be hundreds of years before Episode 4. It could be hundreds of years in the future. It could be in an area of that galaxy we haven't seen, that was impacted somehow by the Empire or the rebellion. But I think the universe Lucas created was amazing and has a lot of value. Commercializing it to the Nth degree has its drawbacks, though. Could the attempts I'm suggesting fail horribly? Sure. I think Prometheus is an example of this happening, though it was the original creator at the helm. But it could also be something really great.

Again, this could never happen, so this is an ideal situation for me. But I think you can go too far in the other direction.

Cool, thanks for sharing. Like you said that approach could be amazing or go spectacularly wrong just like we've seen with prequels now. Amazing (RO). Spectacularly wrong (PT.)

Unless something is just downright offensive at the concept level it really comes down to execution. You think that RO catered to fan nostalgia above all else. Now I don't believe that such a criticism is inherently off base or anything, in fact I could come up with examples of other films where I would say that that was definitely the case.

But since I actually am an OG diehard fan I would literally be what you call the target audience for such fan service. And that wasn't what I loved above all else from RO. In fact I'd even agree that the Walrusman appearance was probably the single silliest moment in the film. Forgivable? Sure, but goofy nonetheless.

Every time I watch the film I get caught up in the characters, their mission, the stakes, the excitement, cinematography, acting, dialogue, music, everything. Pretty much all the aspects of a film that you'd hope to enjoy are executed well by RO (all IMO obviously.)

Let me give you an example. One of my favorite scenes in the film is Galen's hologram message to Jyn. It is just *so* well done. I've never once sat there and gone "whee, he's talking about the DS! The reactor! I memba when Luke shot that!" No I just get blown away at how convincingly Felicity Jones makes me think she's really looking at her dad, not a blank space where a hologram will be added later. Or Forest Whitaker, totally looking like a guy who heard the message once, maybe only partially believed it since for all he knew Galen was reciting lines at blaster point in order to trick the Alliance into falling into an ambush, but is now rethinking the message's authenticity as he witnesses Jyn's reaction, feeling for her while also considering the sacrifice that her father might really have made all these years. Then you've got Mads Mikkelsen totally nailing potentially cheesy lines like "They call it the Death Star, and there's no better name for it" with the music tension escalating as they intercut between the DS's main gun powering up and taking aim. Sure these are events that are setting the stage for the segue into ANH but it's all about the brilliant execution. For me of course, and for the seemingly majority of people who liked or loved the movie.

So these claims that it's all about fan service when we, THE biggest fans of the film it is referencing, actually loved it on other merits just don't really come across as having much weight. I think you're just drawing the wrong conclusions about why many people liked the film. That doesn't mean that you not liking the filmmakers' choices or execution or the very things that I loved is invalid or wrong (obviously), I just think you're off in what they were going for.