Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019
The mystery that surrounded Boba Fett, and had so much to do with why he was ever cool in the first place, got stripped away from his character. For no good reason other than to tie Boba Fett into the prequels and sell Jango Fett toys. A reason to like the Empire? The Empire who would be formed, in part, by using all those Fett clone brothers as disposable soldiers? Yeah, Boba Fett is a mere clone - one among a countless number of others who serve as blaster fodder. The PT didn't damage OT Boba Fett?
I would submit that the argument of "he was brought back just to sell toys" just shouldn't be used in a Star Wars discussion
But seriously, I understand the "mystery" of the character being cool, I disagree with the assertion that
this specific back-story is bad or damaging to the character. And don't forget that Boba Fett is a special clone. He's not like the rest of the clones used (first) by the Republic as cannon fodder... Another reason for Boba Fett's arrogant and cool demeanor.
The PT turned OT Kenobi into an idiot who seemingly forgot R2-D2 and C-3PO . . . despite spending years with Artoo, and plenty of time around Threepio. He also took baby Luke to the same farm that was connected to Anakin's mom (that was the best hiding place?). To compound that, he decided to hide there too so that if Vader found him in a quest for revenge, he'd be sure to find Luke as well.
He also needed Yoda to "remind him" in the OT that Luke had a sister who would also be strong with the Force; and he was already a freakin' ghost Kenobi by then! The PT didn't damage OT Kenobi?
As somebody else said, it was established that Anakin had been in Tattooine from the get-go. Uncle Lars and Aunt Beru knew Anakin, that was established in Ep. IV. Splitting the kids and hiding
both in plain sight was actually a clever idea. Again, someone else mentioned that sending Luke to the one place Vader had reason to hate (and it being far removed from where the real action was taking place helped) and hiding Leia with powerful people close to the Jedi cause was a good plan. And, again, this was all established in the OT. If you can accept that Vader's descent into the Dark Side prevented him from sensing his own daughter while torturing her, then you can accept the plan to hide Luke in Tattooine...
As for not recognizing the droids, it did bother me at first, but then I thought that maybe good ole' scheming Ben didn't want to have to explain too much to Luke... "oh, sure I know this droid Luke, it was your father's! And this other one, yeah, of course, he built him right here, but we had their memories erased so they didn't tell anybody what they knew about you, me and your father as well... what's that? Why nobody should know about you? Oh... well... errr... never mind, come and join me in a crusade to destroy your fa... I mean, the Empire!"
In Ep. VI it was established that Obi Wan had a rather ambiguous understanding of the concept of "truth", so in retrospective, it makes sense that he would tell Luke as little as possible about his connection to the droids.
Finally, Obi Wan states Luke is their last hope, to which Yoda replies "no, there is another". That doesn't mean the Obi Wan is unaware of Leia, it merely means he did not think of Leia as a possible candidate for Jedi training.
That sure sounds A LOT like TLJ Luke to me. But, anyway, I'll stick with PT Yoda.
Yoda, who could sense danger in young Anakin but was oblivious to Dooku and Palpatine despite them both being right under his nose for extended time. And the high-flying, acrobatic, lightsaber-wielding Yoda who went to kill Palpatine decided to hide right afterward just because that first attempt didn't work. Did he somehow feel like trying again would be that much stupider in the near future? So he went to Dagobah for 20 years to, what, wait for baby Luke to grow up? . . . The Luke who Kenobi had to convince him to train in ESB. None of that changes Yoda for the worse at all?
Hmmmm... I think there's a big difference between Yoda's self-imposed exile and Luke's. First off, Yoda went into exile after being soundly defeated by the Emperor and seeing the entire Republic brought (willingly) to its knees. Remember, the Emperor was acclaimed and welcomed with open arms by most of the Senate. The entire system failed. Yoda realized the Jedi had failed, their arrogance and hubris had blinded them and brought about the fall of that which they had protected for so long, not least of all because of their blindness in nurturing and leading Anakin Skywalker.
Secondly, Yoda had a plan. One which almost failed (again), but a plan never the less.
Now TFA/TLJ Luke had learned all these lessons, he knew what had brought down the Republic, the Jedi, and his father. He had helped bring back the Republic and had its full backing to deal with the FO, and yet he goes into hiding without a back-up plan. That's a big difference in motivation and execution.
Back to Yoda. After all his carefully laid out plans he's reluctant to train Luke because he has misgivings. This one, a long time has he watched, and he knows how much fear and anger are in him, just like his father, so yeah, he's a bit reluctant to train him at first, despite his plans. But Luke turned out alright after all.
So, no. None of that changes Yoda for the worse at all.
That's precisely the problem! The character of Darth Vader commanded respect, and had a gravity and controlled dignity - not just by rank, but by core personality and presence. And the "teenager" excuse is a bit of a cop out; he was about 20 or so by ROTS - and still whiny and annoying. Most of the "formative" and angst-riddled years would be behind him by then. He was supposed to be a Jedi! And a great one! But there was no poise or solemnity like a Kenobi, a Mace, or a Qui-Gon had in spite of TEN YEARS of training.
At the very least, Anakin should have been written and portrayed to convey some semblance of the controlled, dignified, and impressive badass that was OT Vader. Instead, he was whiny and petulant - without any hint that he could become the man in the Vader suit years later. Again, he was essentially already a man in ROTS. There's such an illogical disconnect between the two versions that it's jarring. Do you really see a believable transition from the Christensen Anakin screaming "I HATE YOU!!" to the Vader we see in the OT in the intervening years?
To accept the prequels as canon, then OT Vader is instantly less of a cool character. He's just a guy who turned to the dark side because he wanted to save his wife (who, by the way, he killed shortly thereafter for some still-unclear reason). That's not damaging to OT Vader?
That the ten years of training were not able to instill that poise and dignity in Anakin is precisely the indictment of the Jedi, it's their failure. If they had succeeded, how would Anakin have turned to the bad side? Remember, Anakin was a troubled child from the beginning, and some of his most important formative years where lived hiding a secret love, mourning a dead mother and fighting a terrible war. Not an ideal way to give balance and dignity to a young man.
And twenty years sinking into the Dark Side might give you some gravitas, don't you think?
I find it pretty cool to see how that tormented young man strides into the Tantive IV having become the embodiment of evil.
No, they chose to let Luke train Ben Solo to be a Jedi. I'm pretty sure Leia (and even Han) would have had an eye toward the future. The Skywalker bloodline was special, and Ben could help preserve (or restore) peace as a powerful Jedi after Luke and Leia would no longer be around to do it.
You're absolutely right that the ST didn't need to split Han and Leia, but it does add more weight to the impact of Ben's turning into Kylo. Their split could've come as a result of Snoke corrupting their son. Han wasn't a big fan of the Jedi to begin with. As Luke (in TLJ) describes taking Ben to be trained: "Han was . . . 'Han' about it."
The fact that Luke was training Kylo doesn't mean the parents didn't fail.
There was no suspicion when Luke briefly ignited his lightsaber. He explicitly states that he saw at that moment that Ben had already been corrupted by Snoke. Too far gone to the dark side, by Luke's estimation. And Luke stood over his defenseless father with his lightsaber still lit before realizing what kind of dark act he might be about to commit in the name of erasing the evil threat of Vader. And, so too, he stood over Ben with a lit lightsaber before recognizing that his impulse was very wrong. He told Rey how ashamed he felt for even entertaining the thought.
I don't understand why this continues to be such a departure from OT Luke for so many people. He's always been impulsive. He has already been on the brink of killing, and crossing a line in the name of protecting others from a corrupted Skywalker. And in both cases, his impulsive reaction was overcome by a more reasoned and Jedi-like approach.
True. But it negates that he learned anything in the intervening years. Besides, Vader was a full-fledged Sith Lord, the scourge of the Galaxy. He had threatened to turn Luke's sister. Kylo was a young kid with potential. Hardly deserving of the same treatment, wouldn't you agree?
As Khev already mentioned in the post you were quoting, nothing from the OT has been erased by the ST. These are older versions of the heroes we knew, which means that their futures were always a mystery. What the PT did was take established history and characterization that was presented in the OT, and changed it for the worse in a number of ways. If you accept the PT, it's a lot harder (impossible, actually) to think of the OT characters in the same way as we did pre-PT. But the ST cannot re-write those OT characters and interactions. They will forever be valid and irrevocable unless there's some crazy OT flashback scene in Episode IX. That's a big difference between PT and ST in my view.
I fundamentally disagree with this.
Vader's actions cannot be changed by the PT. He remains who he was.
But Luke has forever been changed.
Anyway, great discussion!
There ain't enough civil discourse in today's world.
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