Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[DiFabio]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Which is why one should only accept Star Wars 1977 as canon. Vader wasn’t Luke’s father, Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister, Obi-Wan isn’t a lying SOB, Uncle Owen doesn’t want Luke to be brash and suffer the same fate his father did (getting murder by Vader). Vader and the Emperor wouldn’t care about Luke or go looking for him on a desolate world because he’d just be the kid of the guy they betrayed and killed off, nothing special.


Much simpler.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Well I don't know that Luke growing up on Tatooine was really the "fault" of the OT per se. When ANH was made it was with the notion that Luke's father was dead with no reason for the guy who murdered him to ever come looking for him or care that he existed. Sure making Anakin and Vader one and the same for ESB raises questions about why Luke would have been kept there retroactively but who would fault such a minor byproduct of arguably the greatest twist in cinematic history.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Possible, however that doesn't change the fact that the problem lies in the OT, not the PT.

Correct. That was my point when I originally drew attention to that a few pages back. One of few things that can't be blamed on the PT.

Guys, you're both addressing the Anakin/Tatooine thing on its own. But my original point was about Kenobi. Wasn't it the PT - not the OT - that made Kenobi the one who decided to hide Luke on Tatooine?

Even if we thought it was a dumb idea (in general) before the prequels, we didn't need to have Obi-Wan be the one who actually came up with the dumb idea in the first place. I only brought it up as one example of how the PT changed OT Kenobi for the worse.

Without the PT, Kenobi could have ended up on Tatooine to protect Luke since he'd know that it was the most obvious place in the galaxy if Vader or the Emperor went looking for him. That would be smart: to make the best of someone else's dumb decision. The PT, however, made it Obi-Wan's dumb decision.

See what I'm saying? Only the PT made Kenobi the one to bring Luke to Tatooine. As I've said before, Luke could have been born there, or brought there by someone else, and Kenobi would have just been making the best of a bad situation by hiding there too in order to help keep Luke safe.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Which is why one should only accept Star Wars 1977 as canon. Vader wasn’t Luke’s father, Leia wasn’t Luke’s sister, Obi-Wan isn’t a lying SOB, Uncle Owen doesn’t want Luke to be brash and suffer the same fate his father did (getting murder by Vader). Vader and the Emperor wouldn’t care about Luke or go looking for him on a desolate world because he’d just be the kid of the guy they betrayed and killed off, nothing special.


Much simpler.

It's like with T2 though. Empire Strikes Back and T2 were both really good films so one wants to find a way to make them work. They're worth the effort.

Well I don't know that Luke growing up on Tatooine was really the "fault" of the OT per se. When ANH was made it was with the notion that Luke's father was dead with no reason for the guy who murdered him to ever come looking for him or care that he existed. Sure making Anakin and Vader one and the same for ESB raises questions about why Luke would have been kept there retroactively but who would fault such a minor byproduct of arguably the greatest twist in cinematic history.

Alec Guinness's acting when he's telling Luke about his father...it's as though he, the actor, knew the story. He didn't, but the way he delivered the lines was quite the happy accident I guess.

As to how one rationalizes why Obi-Wan would leave Luke with Owen and Beru Lars - you're forced to say that Obi-wan did think it was a good idea to 'hide' Luke in plain sight. I just disagree with him. I think it was a pretty bad idea, a big gamble. Later comics merely come up with a thought process for Vader that retroactively vindicates it.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Ah yes, I get you.

Guys, you're both addressing the Anakin/Tatooine thing on its own. But my original point was about Kenobi. Wasn't it the PT - not the OT - that made Kenobi the one who decided to hide Luke on Tatooine?

Even if we thought it was a dumb idea (in general) before the prequels, we didn't need to have Obi-Wan be the one who actually came up with the dumb idea in the first place. I only brought it up as one example of how the PT changed OT Kenobi for the worse.

Without the PT, Kenobi could have ended up on Tatooine to protect Luke since he'd know that it was the most obvious place in the galaxy if Vader or the Emperor went looking for him. That would be smart: to make the best of someone else's dumb decision. The PT, however, made it Obi-Wan's dumb decision.

See what I'm saying? Only the PT made Kenobi the one to bring Luke to Tatooine. As I've said before, Luke could have been born there, or brought there by someone else, and Kenobi would have just been making the best of a bad situation by hiding there too in order to help keep Luke safe.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Yep even the dodgy ROTJ had the wherewithal to have Kenobi simply say "that's why you were hidden when you were born" instead of "that's why I hid you." Of course the PT when out of its way to then make him look like even more of an idiot (even as a ghost) who couldn't remember that he actually was present when both Skywalker children were born.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Obi-wan hadn't even met Owen and Beru. Unless we were to assume he did meet them at some point between movies

 

[Bravomite]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Guys, you're both addressing the Anakin/Tatooine thing on its own. But my original point was about Kenobi. Wasn't it the PT - not the OT - that made Kenobi the one who decided to hide Luke on Tatooine?

Even if we thought it was a dumb idea (in general) before the prequels, we didn't need to have Obi-Wan be the one who actually came up with the dumb idea in the first place. I only brought it up as one example of how the PT changed OT Kenobi for the worse.

Without the PT, Kenobi could have ended up on Tatooine to protect Luke since he'd know that it was the most obvious place in the galaxy if Vader or the Emperor went looking for him. That would be smart: to make the best of someone else's dumb decision. The PT, however, made it Obi-Wan's dumb decision.

See what I'm saying? Only the PT made Kenobi the one to bring Luke to Tatooine. As I've said before, Luke could have been born there, or brought there by someone else, and Kenobi would have just been making the best of a bad situation by hiding there too in order to help keep Luke safe.

I don't really see how it makes any difference.

If your preferred version of Kenobi (untainted by the PT) discovered Luke on Tatooine isn't his decision to hide close by and watch over Luke rather than collect him and hide him some other place just as bad as hiding him there originally? Kind of amounts to the same thing to my mind, either he hides him there (as established in the PT) or he discovers him there (an assumption you've made based on the OT not confirming it either way) and then does nothing with that information to right the poor decision / circumstance which wound up with Luke there in the first place.

In any case I'm more on the side that hiding Luke in plain sight (a place which is filled with bad memories for Vader) with people you can trust (in this case family) is a good idea.

Vader was told by Sidious that he had killed Padme on Mustafar when he force choked her in his anger. When he reached out for her in the force he could no longer feel her which confirmed to him that she was gone. Given that he now believed that she had still been pregnant when she died it seems likely that he assumed that the baby (or babies though it seems Anakin and Padme were oblivious to the fact she was expecting twins) did not make it.

This is given more weight by our knowledge of the OT which establishes that Vader is unable to make the connection with his children through the force seemingly until he knows they exist - until that point in the OT he only perceives that the force is strong with Luke and that Leia had shown extraordinary levels of resistance to their torture techniques. He doesn't recognise them as his children until he makes the Skywalker connection with Luke through their shared surname (that and Obi-wan hanging around him lol) or until he reads Luke's mind in Jedi to discover that Leia is his daughter.

It seems that after he senses Padme is gone be closes himself off from that painful chapter I his life and goes off the deep end fully commiting to the dark side. From the NuCannon so far as I understand, the first time Vader actually sets foot again on Tatooine is after he discovers Luke's identity and is actively searching for him ... So I guess Obi-wan made a good call after all. Which shouldn't be that surprising since he knew Anakin perhaps better than anyone.

Just out of curiosity, is it ever established that the Emperor ever knew Padme was pregnant? Anakin tells him that he needs to prevent her from dying but I can't recall if Sidious knew that they were having a baby? It seems the first the Emperor is aware of the chance of a Skywalker baby is TESB.

Great discussion again everyone.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I don't really see how it makes any difference.

If your preferred version of Kenobi (untainted by the PT) discovered Luke on Tatooine isn't his decision to hide close by and watch over Luke rather than collect him and hide him some other place just as bad as hiding him there originally? Kind of amounts to the same thing to my mind, either he hides him there (as established in the PT) or he discovers him there (an assumption you've made based on the OT not confirming it either way) and then does nothing with that information to right the poor decision / circumstance which wound up with Luke there in the first place.

At that point, the argument could be made that it wouldn't be right to pluck the young Luke away from his family. Again, Kenobi could come across as compassionate in that sense, but still wise enough to choose to stay on Tatooine in order to protect Luke in case Anakin returned to a familiar planet. Either way, I don't want to blow the whole Anakin/Tatooine/Luke thing out of proportion; it's not a big deal on its own. It was just one example, out of many, where I think the PT took deliberate steps to make OT characters, dialogue, and plots unnecessarily stupider, more confusing, or just worse.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

At that point, the argument could be made that it wouldn't be right to pluck the young Luke away from his family. Again, Kenobi could come across as compassionate in that sense, but still wise enough to choose to stay on Tatooine in order to protect Luke in case Anakin returned to a familiar planet.

Yes that also would have been my response to Bravomite's point.

There'd still be the following questions though -

Whose idea then was it to hide Luke on the Lars homestead? Padme was the only other person who had met them and George made the rather stupid decision to have her die at childbirth - she didn't provide any instructions on what to do with Luke and Leia before she decided to just die. That leaves only R2-D2 and C-3PO but I can't see them offering any such advice.

Secondly it would have to be answered - if Obi-Wan were not to be involved in the decision about where Luke was sent A) where was he? Why wouldn't he be involved? and B) How long after Luke had already been delivered to the Lars would Obi-wan find out about it such that it would no longer be appropriate to move Luke again to another family, another planet?

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Padme was the only other person who had met them and George made the rather stupid decision to have her die at childbirth - she didn't provide any instructions on what to do with Luke and Leia before she decided to just die.

No matter how many years go by just reading that in print never gets any less stupid, lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Yes that also would have been my response to Bravomite's point.

There'd still be the following questions though -

Whose idea then was it to hide Luke on the Lars homestead? Padme was the only other person who had met them and George made the rather stupid decision to have her die at childbirth - she didn't provide any instructions on what to do with Luke and Leia before she decided to just die. That leaves only R2-D2 and C-3PO but I can't see them offering any such advice.

Secondly it would have to be answered - if Obi-Wan were not to be involved in the decision about where Luke was sent A) where was he? Why wouldn't he be involved? and B) How long after Luke had already been delivered to the Lars would Obi-wan find out about it such that it would no longer be appropriate to move Luke again to another family, another planet?

Great point! I can only assume that Anakin revealed to Obi-Wan the details of his AOTC trip to Tatooine during their time together before ROTS. But, yeah, I don't remember any on-screen justification for Kenobi knowing about the Lars or their homestead.

Lucas should have had Padme tell Obi-Wan to hide Luke on Tatooine at the end of ROTS. He could have given her a Yoda's-dying-revelation moment: "Obi-Wan . . . hide Luke on Tatooine . . . Anakin . . . hates . . . sand." Eyes close and she dies.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

No matter how many years go by just reading that in print never gets any less stupid, lol.

It utterly destroyed any credibility that character had.

Great point! I can only assume that Anakin revealed to Obi-Wan the details of his AOTC trip to Tatooine during their time together before ROTS. But, yeah, I don't remember any on-screen justification for Kenobi knowing about the Lars or their homestead.

Lucas should have had Padme tell Obi-Wan to hide Luke on Tatooine at the end of ROTS. He could have given her a Yoda's-dying-revelation moment: "Obi-Wan . . . hide Luke on Tatooine . . . Anakin . . . hates . . . sand." Eyes close and she dies.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Before the PT, I guess I thought Anakin never knew Luke's mom was even pregnant in the first place. The way I imagined it was that Anakin had gone off to fight in the Clone Wars (or whatever) before either of them knew she was with child, and he turned to Vader while he was away and never looked back. Then Luke was whisked away, and the mother re-married Bail Organa and raised Leia til she dies when Leia was young. So Vader never had any cause to go back to Tattooine or look for children he never knew he had. So it was safe for Luke to be raised by Anakin's estranged brother whom he hadn't spoken to since before he went off to Jedi Academy.

I also still think about how the back story would have been if Vader and Anakin were 2 different people. I think it would have been a great story to have that trio of Obi Wan, Anakin and Vader as Jedi Knights, and Vader always being brash and hot-tempered, Anakin being more traditionally heroic (an all around good guy with strict morals), and Obi Wan as the older Jedi overseeing these two younger soldiers that represented the dark side and the light side, the ying and yang. And yes, maybe it was as simple as Vader betrays and murders Anakin, which could have been an interesting and compelling story despite seeming so straight-forward.

 

[cerealkeller]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Lucas should have had Padme tell Obi-Wan to hide Luke on Tatooine at the end of ROTS. He could have given her a Yoda's-dying-revelation moment: "Obi-Wan . . . hide Luke on Tatooine . . . Anakin . . . hates . . . sand." Eyes close and she dies.

Thank you for making my day! I NEED this scene to be made as a SE for ROTS!

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Before the PT, I guess I thought Anakin never knew Luke's mom was even pregnant in the first place. The way I imagined it was that Anakin had gone off to fight in the Clone Wars (or whatever) before either of them knew she was with child, and he turned to Vader while he was away and never looked back. Then Luke was whisked away, and the mother re-married Bail Organa and raised Leia til she dies when Leia was young. So Vader never had any cause to go back to Tattooine or look for children he never knew he had. So it was safe for Luke to be raised by Anakin's estranged brother whom he hadn't spoken to since before he went off to Jedi Academy.

I also still think about how the back story would have been if Vader and Anakin were 2 different people. I think it would have been a great story to have that trio of Obi Wan, Anakin and Vader as Jedi Knights, and Vader always being brash and hot-tempered, Anakin being more traditionally heroic (an all around good guy with strict morals), and Obi Wan as the older Jedi overseeing these two younger soldiers that represented the dark side and the light side, the ying and yang. And yes, maybe it was as simple as Vader betrays and murders Anakin, which could have been an interesting and compelling story despite seeming so straight-forward.

Yeah your idea makes sense, probably along the lines of what many of us would have done.

Thank you for making my day! I NEED this scene to be made as a SE for ROTS!

It could backfire though - supposing Vader hated Tattooine so much that when Tarkin says ''I think it's about time we tested the full power of this station, any ideas?''.....

 

[cerealkeller]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

That needed to be a meme.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cerealkeller]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

It could backfire though - supposing Vader hated Tattooine so much that when Tarkin says ''I think it's about time we tested the full power of this station, any ideas?''.....

This will be a day long remembered. We will see the end of those animal Tusken Raiders... and will see the end of sand getting in my crotch.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

That needed to be a meme.

And while they're updating the ROTS:SE they can make this change as well:

 

[cerealkeller]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

And while they're updating the ROTS:SE they can make this change as well:

I think this is something that should be made. Badly dubbed in lines to make make the prequels no longer have any plot-holes. Would make watching TPM and AOTC fun to watch again without the usual self loathing I feel for having them on.