Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

skywalker i’m perfectly fine if you thought he moved something but if I may present firm evidence that he dudn’t it was all mind control here is Ben ****ing with dummies earlier in the movie see his hand:

Yes but he used words to compel them mind contro doesn’t work without words

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

After watching that lightsaber fight yes

I assume that it was this lightsaber fight that led you to believe that they didn't have the technology to make an object move on screen?

This is pretty far off the deep in in silliness at this point. "They lacked the technology to make something move on screen." An ability present in literally every "motion picture" ever made. Quite a supposition for the record books all right.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I assume that it was this lightsaber fight that led you to believe that they didn't have the technology to make an object move on screen?

And you do know that objects can be moved without visual effects? None of Vader's telekinesis in ESB was done with stop-motion, optical compositing or miniatures. Do you believe that they also lacked the technology to add a sound? That's what the Troopers were reacting to, an actual noise that they thought they heard.

Budget could have been a reason they didn’t show the object ben moved.. first movie had big budget constraints. I just seems more plausible to me that he moved object if it was some mind trick he would have done the same thing he did to other troopers

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

*insert Fury Road that's bait gif*

 

[xipotec]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Budget could have been a reason they didn’t show the object ben moved.. first movie had big budget constraints. I just seems more plausible to me that he moved object if it was some mind trick he would have done the same thing he did to other troopers

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Awesome lol I dig that one but it also applies to yours guys trying to compare Rey’s journey to Luke’s.. it’s no comparison his powers grew over three films after being in contact with jedi, rey touched a lightsaber and became the new chosen one

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I'm pretty sure that TFA didn't have the budget to show more Jedi on screen and that her training was simply implied...or maybe she remembered Luke's lessons on Ahch-To and that's how she mind tricked the FO Trooper on Starkiller Base.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I'm pretty sure that TFA didn't have the budget to show more Jedi on screen and that her training was simply implied.

Training you mean that flashback and words of wisdom from obi wan these are your first steps.. after what.. touching a lightsaber. Finn heard them too he just wasn’t worthy

 

[xipotec]

Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Training you mean that flashback and words of wisdom from obi wan these are your first steps.. after what.. touching a lightsaber. Finn heard them too he just wasn’t worthy

You know its entirely possible they are alluding to the lightsaber, or kyber crystal in it, has the power to imbue a force user with the powers. Clone wars hints at that as well....

Luke also picks up the same lightsaber and begins his journey to learn the force shortly after...

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I assume that it was this lightsaber fight that led you to believe that they didn't have the technology to make an object move on screen?

If it weren't for "I am your father!" I think a good case could be made for that scene with Luke training on the Falcon being the most pivotal one in the whole OT. It's also the key reference point for how much "training" is needed when someone is already strong with the Force (Luke, Anakin, Rey).

Luke goes from being zapped in the ass and looking foolish one minute, to being able to block every laser shot from the orb the next minute. That scene redefined what Luke could be capable of. And all Kenobi did was block Luke's vision so that he could "feel" instead of rely on his conventional senses. Just like that, Luke tapped into the Force. And not too long after that, he was using that same simple lesson to destroy a Death Star.

Most people treat Yoda's training in ESB as how Luke learned to lift objects, or even learned to use a lightsaber in battle. Um . . . no. Luke was already anticipating attacks, and deflecting them, with a lightsaber in that ANH scene. Luke was already using telekentic Force abilities (pulling the lightsaber from the snow) before meeting Yoda. Kenobi "flipping the switch" for Luke on the Falcon is what changed his life forever.

Yoda's lessons were more about focus and control, and teaching him about Jedi philosophy. Those scenes were about teaching Luke how to stay focused mentally when being occupied or challenged physically. It wasn't about giving how-to lessons on swordsmanship or (Force)lifting things. Yoda's purpose was more to hone Luke's mind so as not to become another tool of the Emperor. Even lifting the X-Wing was to show him that belief (the mind) was the key; it wasn't about any technique.

Rey's version of Yoda was Luke in TLJ, and I thought that was done fairly well. But it's her version of Kenobi (Maz? The lightsaber? Kylo?) that I wish was handled better in TFA. Still not really a major problem for me in terms of enjoying the ST, but left a lot to be desired compared to the Luke/Kenobi Falcon scene.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Very good post^

 

[Darth Snoopy]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Very good post^

Agreed. +1 for ajp4mgs.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

If it weren't for "I am your father!" I think a good case could be made for that scene with Luke training on the Falcon being the most pivotal one in the whole OT. It's also the key reference point for how much "training" is needed when someone is already strong with the Force (Luke, Anakin, Rey).

Luke goes from being zapped in the ass and looking foolish one minute, to being able to block every laser shot from the orb the next minute. That scene redefined what Luke could be capable of. And all Kenobi did was block Luke's vision so that he could "feel" instead of rely on his conventional senses. Just like that, Luke tapped into the Force. And not too long after that, he was using that same simple lesson to destroy a Death Star.

Most people treat Yoda's training in ESB as how Luke learned to lift objects, or even learned to use a lightsaber in battle. Um . . . no. Luke was already anticipating attacks, and deflecting them, with a lightsaber in that ANH scene. Luke was already using telekentic Force abilities (pulling the lightsaber from the snow) before meeting Yoda. Kenobi "flipping the switch" for Luke on the Falcon is what changed his life forever.

Yoda's lessons were more about focus and control, and teaching him about Jedi philosophy. Those scenes were about teaching Luke how to stay focused mentally when being occupied or challenged physically. It wasn't about giving how-to lessons on swordsmanship or (Force)lifting things. Yoda's purpose was more to hone Luke's mind so as not to become another tool of the Emperor. Even lifting the X-Wing was to show him that belief (the mind) was the key; it wasn't about any technique.

Rey's version of Yoda was Luke in TLJ, and I thought that was done fairly well. But it's her version of Kenobi (Maz? The lightsaber? Kylo?) that I wish was handled better in TFA. Still not really a major problem for me in terms of enjoying the ST, but left a lot to be desired compared to the Luke/Kenobi Falcon scene.

I agree 100% with bolded. His time around kenobi was key to unlocking those abilities as he saw (or was told) first hand what was possible with the force. By the way I'm not the only one that thinks obi wan used the force to move object when distracting those troopers on the death star.

"Elements of The Force in A New Hope

Additionally, Obi Wan distracts some troopers when disabling the Death Stars tractor beams. It does not seem to be a case of another mind trick, rather that he makes an object fall, causing a noise which distracts them. I can't find a clip of this at the moment, but I did find this spoof which still shows pretty much what happens!" same clip I posted.

Kenobi also does something to make a noise when distracting the guards by the tractor beam controls. The obvious assumption is that he made something fall or move to generate the noise. –

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/93628/elements-of-the-force-in-a-new-hope


At least as of the first movie, Obi-Wan can't just "broadcast" his Mind Trick: it seems that he has to interact directly with anyone he wants to affect. Later movies have shown that the hand-waving gesture may not be necessary: Rey uses it when shackled to a chair, unable to move her arms. But we never see anybody affect someone without at least speaking to them. Actually speaking is probably not as important as communicating your suggestion in some way, but we never see anyone use the trick without speaking, so we can't confirm that.

Although Obi-Wan could probably affect many people on board, the need for communication and the station's own architecture make it unlikely he could affect them all. The guy at the other end of the hallway, safely out of earshot, would likely not be affected. Same for the people watching the security cameras, if they had the sound turned off.

Does anyone have the official novel and if so how does it describe what he does there? When he scares off the Tuskan's he isn't using a mind trick to implant that sound in their mind, he was actually vocalizing/mimicking a krayt dragon call which they were scared of (according to the novel). I couldn't find any excepts from the novel describing that death star scene though.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I agree 100% with bolded.. By the way I'm not the only one that thinks obi wan used the force to move object when distracting those troopers on the death star.

"Elements of The Force in A New Hope

Additionally, Obi Wan distracts some troopers when disabling the Death Stars tractor beams. It does not seem to be a case of another mind trick, rather that he makes an object fall, causing a noise which distracts them. I can't find a clip of this at the moment, but I did find this spoof which still shows pretty much what happens!" same clip I posted.

Kenobi also does something to make a noise when distracting the guards by the tractor beam controls. The obvious assumption is that he made something fall or move to generate the noise. –

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/93628/elements-of-the-force-in-a-new-hope


At least as of the first movie, Obi-Wan can't just "broadcast" his Mind Trick: it seems that he has to interact directly with anyone he wants to affect. Later movies have shown that the hand-waving gesture may not be necessary: Rey uses it when shackled to a chair, unable to move her arms. But we never see anybody affect someone without at least speaking to them. Actually speaking is probably not as important as communicating your suggestion in some way, but we never see anyone use the trick without speaking, so we can't confirm that.

Although Obi-Wan could probably affect many people on board, the need for communication and the station's own architecture make it unlikely he could affect them all. The guy at the other end of the hallway, safely out of earshot, would likely not be affected. Same for the people watching the security cameras, if they had the sound turned off.

Does anyone have the official novel and if so how does it describe what he does there? When he scares off the Tuskan's he isn't using a mind trick to implant that sound in their mind, he was actually vocalizing/mimicking a krayt dragon call which they were scared of (according to the novel). I couldn't find any excepts from the novel describing that death star scene though.

Not bad assumptions. I can see how you would think all of this.....

I always saw that scene as Ben doing another Mind Trick on the Troopers thou.

I always viewed the Raiders scene as him actually making the sound though.....




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Damn fine post ajp4mgs.

I agree 100% with bolded. His time around kenobi was key to unlocking those abilities as obi wan had already showed him what was possible with the force. By the way I'm not the only one that thinks obi wan used the force to move object when distracting those troopers on the death star.

"Elements of The Force in A New Hope

Additionally, Obi Wan distracts some troopers when disabling the Death Stars tractor beams. It does not seem to be a case of another mind trick, rather that he makes an object fall, causing a noise which distracts them. I can't find a clip of this at the moment, but I did find this spoof which still shows pretty much what happens!" same clip I posted.

Kenobi also does something to make a noise when distracting the guards by the tractor beam controls. The obvious assumption is that he made something fall or move to generate the noise. –

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/93628/elements-of-the-force-in-a-new-hope


At least as of the first movie, Obi-Wan can't just "broadcast" his Mind Trick: it seems that he has to interact directly with anyone he wants to affect. Later movies have shown that the hand-waving gesture may not be necessary: Rey uses it when shackled to a chair, unable to move her arms. But we never see anybody affect someone without at least speaking to them. Actually speaking is probably not as important as communicating your suggestion in some way, but we never see anyone use the trick without speaking, so we can't confirm that.

Although Obi-Wan could probably affect many people on board, the need for communication and the station's own architecture make it unlikely he could affect them all. The guy at the other end of the hallway, safely out of earshot, would likely not be affected. Same for the people watching the security cameras, if they had the sound turned off.

Does anyone have the official novel and if so how does it describe what he does there? When he scares off the Tuskan's he isn't using a mind trick to implant that sound in their mind, he was actually vocalizing/mimicking a krayt dragon call which they were scared of (according to the novel). I couldn't find any excepts from the novel describing that death star scene though.

From "The Annotated Screenplays" p. 76:

"FIRST TROOPER: Do you know what's going on?
SECOND TROOPER: Maybe it's another drill.
Ben moves around the tractor beam, watching the stormtroopers as they turn their backs to him and chat. Ben gestures with his hand toward them as the troopers think they hear something in the other hallway. With the help of the Force, Ben deftly slips past the troopers and into the main hallway.
FIRST TROOPER: Have you seen that new BT-sixteen?
SECOND TROOPER: Yeah, some of the other guys were telling me about it. They say it's, it's quite a thing to...What was that?
FIRST TROOPER: That's nothing. Top gassing. Don't worry about it."

Note the that the troopers "think" they hear something as opposed to really hearing something. A noise coming from "the other hall" that Ben couldn't even see. Just a quick plant in their minds so that he could slip past.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Damn fine post ajp4mgs.



From "The Annotated Screenplays" p. 76:

"FIRST TROOPER: Do you know what's going on?
SECOND TROOPER: Maybe it's another drill.
Ben moves around the tractor beam, watching the stormtroopers as they turn their backs to him and chat. Ben gestures with his hand toward them as the troopers think they hear something in the other hallway. With the help of the Force, Ben deftly slips past the troopers and into the main hallway.[/I]
FIRST TROOPER: Have you seen that new BT-sixteen?
SECOND TROOPER: Yeah, some of the other guys were telling me about it. They say it's, it's quite a thing to...What was that?
FIRST TROOPER: That's nothing. Top gassing. Don't worry about it."

Note the that the troopers "think" they hear something as opposed to really hearing something. A noise coming from "the other hall" that Ben couldn't even see. Just a quick plant in their minds so that he could slip past.

Its written ambiguously, its as if George didn't want to commit at the time to what power he was using, it just says with the "help of the force", you'd think if it was mind trick it would of said that. Help of the force could also mean he used telekenisis. I agree though the word "think" implies that it wasn't real, but again its still very ambiguously written. He could have used the word think to drive home the point it was a distraction, not so much what he did to distract them

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I think it was clearly defined because no sound is actually heard in the film. I think the monster sound he made when approaching the Sandpeople was real (IIRC even R2 reacted to it) because you can hear it while the Troopers were reacting to nothing except what was planted in their minds. They could have easily added some clanking noise or something to accompany Ben's gesture but they didn't. That being said you're obviously you're free to interpret those scenes however you wish.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

If it weren't for "I am your father!" I think a good case could be made for that scene with Luke training on the Falcon being the most pivotal one in the whole OT. It's also the key reference point for how much "training" is needed when someone is already strong with the Force (Luke, Anakin, Rey).

Luke goes from being zapped in the ass and looking foolish one minute, to being able to block every laser shot from the orb the next minute. That scene redefined what Luke could be capable of. And all Kenobi did was block Luke's vision so that he could "feel" instead of rely on his conventional senses. Just like that, Luke tapped into the Force. And not too long after that, he was using that same simple lesson to destroy a Death Star.

Most people treat Yoda's training in ESB as how Luke learned to lift objects, or even learned to use a lightsaber in battle. Um . . . no. Luke was already anticipating attacks, and deflecting them, with a lightsaber in that ANH scene. Luke was already using telekentic Force abilities (pulling the lightsaber from the snow) before meeting Yoda. Kenobi "flipping the switch" for Luke on the Falcon is what changed his life forever.

Yoda's lessons were more about focus and control, and teaching him about Jedi philosophy. Those scenes were about teaching Luke how to stay focused mentally when being occupied or challenged physically. It wasn't about giving how-to lessons on swordsmanship or (Force)lifting things. Yoda's purpose was more to hone Luke's mind so as not to become another tool of the Emperor. Even lifting the X-Wing was to show him that belief (the mind) was the key; it wasn't about any technique.

Rey's version of Yoda was Luke in TLJ, and I thought that was done fairly well. But it's her version of Kenobi (Maz? The lightsaber? Kylo?) that I wish was handled better in TFA. Still not really a major problem for me in terms of enjoying the ST, but left a lot to be desired compared to the Luke/Kenobi Falcon scene.

Talk about making every Mary Sue complaint obsolete lol


With Luke being an offspring from a person who was literally brought to life by the force his quick entry into the force makes sense but I think most anti Rey fans feel that because she suffered so much less than Luke did onscreen it made her journey dull for lack of a better term.


Now that being said with Luke and Rey both having quick entry into the force, irregardless of who suffered more on their journey, would you say that Rey will be revealed to be a Skywalker because of her similarities to Luke?


I say a resounding YES!


That whole “she’s a nobody” is an obvious misdirection.


What say you destroyer of Mary Sue whiners lol

 

[loki2371]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I think it was clearly defined because no sound is actually heard in the film. I think the monster sound he made when approaching the Sandpeople was real (IIRC even R2 reacted to it) because you can hear it while the Troopers were reacting to nothing except what was planted in their minds. They could have easily added some clanking noise or something to accompany Ben's gesture but they didn't. That being said you're obviously you're free to interpret those scenes however you wish.

Interesting debate. So I decided to check....

I actually have all 7 Star Wars movies (Ep I - VI & RO, TFA & TLJ don't exist ) on my phone so I can watch them anytime. I just watched the scene real quick, and sorry to say, you actually do here a bang, more like a boom, after Obi-Wan does his hand gesture before the Troopers respond with "What was that?". (1.26.55 time) Now this is the bluray versions, not the original Harmy despecialized, so wonder if it was added or is indeed on the original as well. I'll check that out later.

 

[abake]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

If it weren't for "I am your father!" I think a good case could be made for that scene with Luke training on the Falcon being the most pivotal one in the whole OT. It's also the key reference point for how much "training" is needed when someone is already strong with the Force (Luke, Anakin, Rey).

Luke goes from being zapped in the ass and looking foolish one minute, to being able to block every laser shot from the orb the next minute. That scene redefined what Luke could be capable of. And all Kenobi did was block Luke's vision so that he could "feel" instead of rely on his conventional senses. Just like that, Luke tapped into the Force. And not too long after that, he was using that same simple lesson to destroy a Death Star.

Most people treat Yoda's training in ESB as how Luke learned to lift objects, or even learned to use a lightsaber in battle. Um . . . no. Luke was already anticipating attacks, and deflecting them, with a lightsaber in that ANH scene. Luke was already using telekentic Force abilities (pulling the lightsaber from the snow) before meeting Yoda. Kenobi "flipping the switch" for Luke on the Falcon is what changed his life forever.

Yoda's lessons were more about focus and control, and teaching him about Jedi philosophy. Those scenes were about teaching Luke how to stay focused mentally when being occupied or challenged physically. It wasn't about giving how-to lessons on swordsmanship or (Force)lifting things. Yoda's purpose was more to hone Luke's mind so as not to become another tool of the Emperor. Even lifting the X-Wing was to show him that belief (the mind) was the key; it wasn't about any technique.

Rey's version of Yoda was Luke in TLJ, and I thought that was done fairly well. But it's her version of Kenobi (Maz? The lightsaber? Kylo?) that I wish was handled better in TFA. Still not really a major problem for me in terms of enjoying the ST, but left a lot to be desired compared to the Luke/Kenobi Falcon scene.

Good post man.
I always felt the turning point for Rey firstly was touching the lightsaber, simply because she had all those visions, and secondly, Kylo trying to pick through her brains. But I think neither movie did a very good job of explaining her prowess in the Force.