Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I would have accepted Rey being Luke’s daughter, trained from infancy, but hidden and somehow memory- wiped to protect her from murderous Kylo.

And while I know JJ is guilty of setting up mysteries without regard for conclusions, I don’t think it’s the case here. We’ll never know for sure but Simon Pegg commented that he had spoken to JJ about plans for Snoke that are apparently dashed by TLJ.

The idea that Luke’s saber communicates with Rey, Kylo communing with Anakin’s spirit - both of those huge threads are dropped in Johnson’s screenplay and not effectively replaced with anything of continued significance IMO. Just “moments” that are effective in the short term but ultimately unimportant or detrimental to the trilogy.

I can't say that Rey being memory-wiped wouldn't have ended up being a better storyline, but you'd still have the inevitable criticism about two Force users - who are related but don't know it - ending up crossing paths to resolve a galactic conflict being derivative of the Luke/Leia dynamic from the OT. Plus, mind-wiping could very reasonably be considered a cop-out storytelling technique (and yet another new Force power).

And I don't think Johnson dropped the Vader-Kylo communing, but rather "deferred" it to Episode IX. In TLJ, Snoke uses Vader to stoke reactions from Kylo. I think there's a fair question to be asked if Kylo was actually communing with the spirit of Anakin/Vader, or was he communing with some deception that Snoke was conjuring in order to keep turning Kylo into what he wanted? It's still up to JJ to decide where he wants to go with that - nothing was taken out of play. JJ just has an extra option now if he wants it.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I still love TLJ as a standalone SW movie and for the experience I had watching it with my kids but I do admit that I don't really see "Let the past die" Kylo as syncing with the guy who couldn't let go of his grandfather's 30 year old helmet.

Hopefully Episode IX will win out in the "cinematic experience" department because I can easily go all SNIKT on where I want the story to go with Rey being Luke's amnesiatic daughter who puts on the Vader mask before killing Kylo. I've wanted that to be the eventual finale since TFA and I don't know if I can accept anything else at this point, lol. Kylo turning good and becoming a grateful ghost will just be the worst though.

 

[chewblacca]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I put this in the last Jedi thread already, but this video makes a lot of sense about RJ’s decisions: https://youtu.be/C95o0MRzBVs

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I still love TLJ as a standalone SW movie and for the experience I had watching it with my kids but I do admit that I don't really see "Let the past die" Kylo as syncing with the guy who couldn't let go of his grandfather's 30 year old helmet.

The inconsistency you see with Kylo from TFA to TLJ is something that doesn't strike me that way at all. Kylo is trying to fulfill Vader's unfinished legacy. But it was unfinished because of things like the Jedi/Sith dynamic, the master/apprentice dynamic, and family bonds. Those are things that Kylo has been systematically eliminating (letting the past die; killing it if he has to). It's actually logical: if you want something from the past (Vader's ambitions) to be reborn and thrive, you have to get rid of the things that stopped it the first time (letting the past die).

The key to this is recognizing Darth Vader's (not Anakin Skywalker's) legacy. Vader was an authoritarian who believed in centralized power and control. Young Anakin had ideological faith in that concept; and he spoke of it to Padme in ROTS. Then Darth Vader went on to live and fight for the Empire in order to preserve that idea. Furthermore, he saw himself as the one to ultimately seize total power and control; he said as much when he asked Luke to "join me, and together we can rule the galaxy."

That's the Vader legacy that got derailed at the end of ROTJ. That's the unfinished Vader legacy that Snoke has been using to recruit Kylo. And that's the unfinished legacy that Kylo is trying to inherit, fulfill, and finish. To do so, he has to be as strong as his grandfather was (why Kylo communes with Vader in TFA) - but also avoid the traps that kept Vader from an ultimate ascendancy (why Kylo wants the past to die in TLJ).

Kylo killing his father was the way to push beyond Vader's inability to kill his son (which led to Vader's "downfall"). Kylo killing Snoke was his way of preventing the mistake Vader made by not eliminating Palpatine sooner. So, Kylo is systematically eliminating everything that got in the way of his grandfather. Snoke wanted a new Vader, and he ended up dying because he did too good of a job in creating one. Now with Snoke gone, Kylo will confront whether it's the Vader legacy he wants to fight for - or the Anakin/Luke legacy.

Is he Kylo Ren because of Snoke (as Leia said in TFA)? Is he Kylo Ren because he has too much Vader in him (as Han said in TFA)? Or, is he actually Ben Solo because he has too much Skywalker in him? That's what I'm anxious to see play out in Episode IX; and I'm willing to accept either outcome (as long as it's well-written). I've got a little more than a year to convince you to be on-board with either outcome too.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Now with Snoke gone, Kylo will confront whether it's the Vader legacy he wants to fight for - or the Anakin/Luke legacy.

Interesting perspective as always ajp but IIRC the context of Kylo's "let the past die" speech was to explain to Rey that it's the only way you can truly be your own person or something to that effect. Which is what I don't really think jives with him being the standard bearer of Vader's legacy that we saw in TFA. I respect your take but as of now don't really see it that way. But don't worry since I don't think that the character motivations 100% sync between OT films either (especially Vader between ESB and ROTJ, good grief on that one, lol) so it's all good.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

ROTJ Vader was really an imposter.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

ROTJ Vader is Jake Skywalker's father, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

This ST arc is starting to make sense now.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Yep, lol.

"The Emperor knew as I did, that if Vader's body double were to have any children, they'd be a great threat to whomever came looking for them for help."

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Now we just sit and wait for detailed analytics from ajp4mgs-4ever lol

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

jye let's go knock on ajp's door to see if he has any detailed analysis that counters our posts, lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Hi.

Interesting perspective as always ajp but IIRC the context of Kylo's "let the past die" speech was to explain to Rey that it's the only way you can truly be your own person or something to that effect. Which is what I don't really think jives with him being the standard bearer of Vader's legacy that we saw in TFA. I respect your take but as of now don't really see it that way. But don't worry since I don't think that the character motivations 100% sync between OT films either (especially Vader between ESB and ROTJ, good grief on that one, lol) so it's all good.

I can't pretend to know what Rian Johnson intended with the "let the past die" speech, I can only tell you how I interpreted it. The main takeaway for me was that Kylo finished the speech by saying: "We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy." I don't think that's merely "coincidentally" similar to Vader's plea to Luke in ESB.

If Kylo was simply trying to get Rey to be her own person, he wouldn't have tied the "let the past die" speech so directly to his plea for her to join his personal quest for galactic control. He knows better than to think that Rey becoming more of her own person would lead her to align with someone who wants to rule the galaxy. That's why he resorted to reminding her that she's a nobody . . . but not to him.

Kylo knows Rey stands in his way. If he can get her to stand with him, it'd be easier - much like Vader knew that having Luke with him would make things easier. But Kylo later tells Luke (on Crait) that he'll destroy Rey . . . and everything else. Essentially, he's reiterating Vader's "join me or die" mentality.

I see Kylo's belief in killing the past as being directly tied to his ambitions. He's not just making some existential philosophical point about being your own person. He wants power and control; he wants the throne that should've been Vader's. But first, he needs to get rid of everything that got in Vader's way so that it doesn't get in his.

I'll let you decide how analytical any of this was, and if it has any merit.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

jye let's go knock on ajp's door to see if he has any detailed analysis that counters our posts, lol.

An explosive cascade of detailed files.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Hi.



I can't pretend to know what Rian Johnson intended with the "let the past die" speech, I can only tell you how I interpreted it. The main takeaway for me was that Kylo finished the speech by saying: "We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy." I don't think that's merely "coincidentally" similar to Vader's plea to Luke in ESB.

If Kylo was simply trying to get Rey to be her own person, he wouldn't have tied the "let the past die" speech so directly to his plea for her to join his personal quest for galactic control. He knows better than to think that Rey becoming more of her own person would lead her to align with someone who wants to rule the galaxy. That's why he resorted to reminding her that she's a nobody . . . but not to him.

Kylo knows Rey stands in his way. If he can get her to stand with him, it'd be easier - much like Vader knew that having Luke with him would make things easier. But Kylo later tells Luke (on Crait) that he'll destroy Rey . . . and everything else. Essentially, he's reiterating Vader's "join me or die" mentality.

I see Kylo's belief in killing the past as being directly tied to his ambitions. He's not just making some existential philosophical point about being your own person. He wants power and control; he wants the throne that should've been Vader's. But first, he needs to get rid of everything that got in Vader's way so that it doesn't get in his.

I'll let you decide how analytical any of this was, and if it has any merit.

Your analytics on SW are some of the best if not THE best on here.

I do need to give a shout to Khev though he’s right up there with you.

Oh and mine too I can’t forget me.

Look into my eyes.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I'll let you decide how analytical any of this was, and if it has any merit.

Your posts always have merit.

You make a good point. Kylo indeed could have simply been telling *Rey* to let the past die so that *she* could let go of Luke, Han's memory, etc., which she would need to do in order to join him. Then he could continue being a Vader-loving freak who wanted to manipulate the galaxy however he saw fit.

Your analytics on SW are some of the best if not THE best on here.

Yep. Lost Junkion we did. Lose ajp we must not, lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Yep. Lost Junkion we did. Lose ajp we must not, lol.

I've seen the future. When the time comes, it will be you and jye who will turn.

You'll be sitting in the theater next December, still yearning for the reveal of amnesiac Rey. On that same day, jye will be clinging to his hope for the reveal of Rey Palpatine. Instead, you will both encounter an ending with a happy Jedi ghost of Ben Solo . . . wearing mouse ears!

Much fear have I sensed in you lately. That fear will lead to anger; the anger will lead to hate; the hate will lead to . . . YouTube videos. Both of you will post incessant links and rants about "Jake" Skywalkers and whatever else those videos incite your rage into flooding these threads with.

Like Luke, I will have to exile myself to the far reaches of the internet that no one knows still exists (myspace), and I'll just let the pro-ST fandom here be left to the slaughter.

The darkness here will need a new light that will rise to meet it.

 

[guyver1]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Just read John Williams has been hospitalized in London

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Just read John Williams has been hospitalized in London

Oh no.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Uh oh....

 

[guyver1]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Uh oh....

Due to being ill too