Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ArtDamage]

See no one is innocent here lol

This is indeed the bottom line

I didn't mind the jedi extras though. It was just cool to see more jedi. Still haven't gotten anything as bad *** as that intial old republic trailer though in terms of jedi and sith. Cheesy slow mo and all.

 

[Wor-Gar]

My cringe goes like this...

AOTC love story > AOTC Whiney-Kin > AOTC C3PO > AOTC arena Jedi extras > TLJ broom boy > TLJ Canto > TLJ space Leia

So many cringes. Not sure, but AOTC romance might cringe them all out. I think even Space Leia cringes when thinking about her father's romantic days.

This about sums up the last Jedi...

Just drink your Star Wars kool-aid like Luke.

 

[ajp4mgs]

My cringe goes like this...

AOTC love story > AOTC Whiney-Kin > AOTC C3PO > AOTC arena Jedi extras > TLJ broom boy > TLJ Canto > TLJ space Leia

See no one is innocent here lol

Personally, I might even move Canto Bight to the front of that list; it's *that* bad! BUT, the impact it has on my view of the overall film is the same as the impact it had on the actual plot: next to nothing.

When I take the narrative threads that were weaved in TLJ with Luke, Rey, Kylo, Snoke, and the whole Jedi Order, it completely washes out the crapfest that was Canto Bight. Whereas nothing about the narrative composition in AOTC or ROTS was even remotely good enough to wash away the impact of the worst crap in those movies.

I can understand fans being upset with character choices in TLJ, and with not getting satisfying answers to TFA mystery boxes. But from a pure filmmaking perspective (technical merits and storytelling), anyone praising either AOTC or ROTS as being better films than TLJ just makes me wonder . . .

 

[jye4ever]

 

[Rambler]

I was so angry after leaving TLJ. Such a **** movie. The minute Luke tossed the lightsaber, I knew it was going to be bad. Even with how corny the opening "bombing run" scene was, I was okay. But tossing the lightsaber was pretty much when I knew I wasn't going to like what I was about to see.

 

[TaliBane]

Did you know that TLJ's 10th anniversary year will be AOTC's 25th anniversary year?

You know what I'm thinking... double the fun, double the celebration! And BOTH legions of fans are happy.

 

[xipotec]

AOTC good or bad is still remembered to this day. TLJ will forever be the most hated star wars movie with only a handful of fans. Like it or not. It’s the truth. No matter how much money it made it surpassed AOTc as the most hated Star Wars movie.m

For now that is this movies legacy. The most hated movie in the franchise. Hopefully this new one can pull a rots and save it

Yeaaaah we keep coming back to this.

Its 50/50. Although those that hate it , hate it with a passion. The other 50 percent loved it to like it. Dunno how many love it with the passion folks hate it.

Numbers are easy to see. Its a bit of a stretch to say its the most hated of all time....

People like AOTC also, I think its the worst, but some like it. I would guess those numbers are close to 50/50 also.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[TaliBane]

More money!? You think these Disney Star Wars would be making *more* money with someone else running the show? Based on what!?

TFA made more domestic gross revenue than any other film in history. Even if you adjust for inflation, only 10 movies have EVER sold more tickets. Everyone has been crapping themselves over how insanely popular Endgame is, right? Well, Endgame probably won't top TFA's domestic record. Yet, you think more money could've been made? So basically, way more than Endgame! Yeah, okay.

True, but full disclosure: globally AEG will make A BILLION DOLLARS more than TFA did.

The ST and RO put way more ***** in seats than the Lucas-led PT (and that's adjusted for inflation, btw). With Lucas in charge, you got three movies in the 30 years between ROTJ and the Disney buyout. That's it!! Three!

But globally... so did Minions, a couple of Transformers and Beauty and the Beast. And don't get me started on Furious 7.

And not only have the Disney movies brought in bigger audiences, they have received WAY better critical reviews too. In fact, according to Metacritic's aggregate scoring from the top film critics, 2 of the top 4 SW films belong to the ST. Here's their full list:

ANH: 90
TLJ: 85
ESB: 82
TFA: 81
ROTS: 68
RO: 65
Solo: 62
ROTJ: 58
AOTC: 54
TPM: 51

So... why is that the super low TLJ Rotten Tomatoes audience score thing got tons of media/fan scrutiny, when the other side of that disconnect - the seemingly sky-high, uniformly glowing reviews of TLJ (in the context of what emerged as a lot of very negative opinion) - didn't?

As I posted at the time, under "top critics" on RT I counted at least five reviews that were listed under "fresh" that read 100% as though they should have been "rotten." But more importantly, look at what TLJ was touted as, in the midst of the hashtag turmoil of BLM, oscarssowhite and metoo: the diversity/inclusion/POC/force-is-female SW film.

Did anyone stop to think... how this movie coming out, positioned as it was as hyper-consciously diverse/inclusive, with that vicious social debate backdrop in 2017, would have affected a critic's views, especially... ahem... among that majority white, or white male, profession that was itself being examined under the POC microscope at that time, in the broader context of critics fading in significance and being let go (a trend that has steadily increased as newspapers faded over the past 20 years but accelerated under social media)?

The politicization of RT at that time is a whole other story, but a small sample: New York Times, eight months after TLJ debacle: "Rotten Tomatoes Adds 200 Critics as It Tries to Be More Inclusive":

"About 82 percent of the reviews aggregated by Rotten Tomatoes in 2017 for the 100 highest-grossing movies were written by white critics, according to a report published in June by researchers at the University of Southern California. Roughly 78 percent were written by men.

We're supposed to take these reviews of TLJ at face value and ignore that social context elephant in the room?

You know who watched 7 and 8? More people than any other two combined SW movies since ANH. That's right: take *any two* SW movies after ANH, combine the tickets sold (adjusted for inflation), and they still can't touch the ticket sales for 7 and 8. And no two had better combined critical reviews either. That's actual reality. Those are facts, not opinions.

Yup. And ESB + ROTJ adjusted (minus re-releases) = Furious 7

And yes, that's a fact.

And Minions > ESB (which Minions easily does, even adjusted and including all re-releases) only gets you so far in the "significant" and "popular" and "fan loved" and "will endure" stakes.

It sucks that you haven't been able to enjoy the new movies. And I mean that sincerely; I'm not being a **** (aka "Richard"). The PT made me feel the same way. But the truth is that no SW since ANH and ESB has been universally accepted by fans as being great. Lucas couldn't do it with ROTJ and the PT, and I doubt that anyone ever will. SW means different things to different people. Pleasing them all is impossible at this point.

Um, excuse me - a flurry of news stories at the time of TLJ's release dug up several "selected" quotes from Starlog in 1980 (whose head writer at the time despised SW over Trek, which he'd written for - but that was never mentioned in the 2017 articles) to suggest that ESB was maligned by critics and disliked by a lot of the fanbase, "at least as divisive as TLJ."

 

[ajp4mgs]

True, but full disclosure: globally AEG will make A BILLION DOLLARS more than TFA did.

Yes. And more than half of that global difference will be from China. I'm not going to dispute that the MCU is more popular than SW overseas (and especially in China).

Star Wars, as you and I agree, is unusually reliant on nostalgia to drive the fan enthusiasm. The majority of that nostalgia comes from what the OT did for us. In places like China, they weren't exposed to the OT when it was being released, and didn't get swept up in the phenomenon. But with the MCU, they got to be there from the beginning. That connection with a franchise from the start matters in terms of maintaining fidelity for the franchise moving forward. No one in charge at LFL would've been able to change that.

But globally... so did Minions, a couple of Transformers and Beauty and the Beast. And don't get me started on Furious 7.

You're making my point for me. With GL's first two SW films since the OT, and plenty of goodwill with the fans in the figurative bank at that point, he couldn't match the audience grab of what even lesser franchises could eventually get. The ST, following the less-than-stellar PT, has managed to do better at bringing in paying customers.

AOTC wasn't even the highest-grossing film in the year of its release. Both TFA and TLJ were! Just look at the list of franchise films that TLJ had to contend with in 2017 to get the #1 crown! And the only reason TROS won't be #1 too is because AEG is the global monster that it is. GL's second trilogy, even when just getting off the ground with TPM, didn't grab fans the way the ST (especially TFA) did. Why not credit LFL/Disney for that, instead of saying that other people could do better? Lucas himself, when given a prime opportunity, did really well financially . . . but not as well as the current LFL has done with the ST.

So... why is that the super low TLJ Rotten Tomatoes audience score thing got tons of media/fan scrutiny, when the other side of that disconnect - the seemingly sky-high, uniformly glowing reviews of TLJ (in the context of what emerged as a lot of very negative opinion) - didn't?

All I can do is give you my opinion, TaliBane. And as I see it, critics aren't fans. They judge a film by what it achieves as a cinematic entry. Fans judge a film by how it makes them feel, and whether their favorite characters/storylines got treated properly.

Critics appreciated TLJ for filmmaking criteria that most fans couldn't give a **** about. Conversely, fans are much more likely to be turned off when they hear Mark Hamill questioning the characterization of Luke; while critics aren't likely to factor that in to their view.

We're supposed to take these reviews of TLJ at face value and ignore that social context elephant in the room?

I'm a white, conservative, straight male. I am everything that Hollywood and mainstream media says is wrong with the world. But I still saw TLJ the way the critics did. My experience watching TLJ was the same as theirs, without any of the agenda that they might've had. I don't know what to tell you.

Yup. And ESB + ROTJ adjusted (minus re-releases) = Furious 7

And yes, that's a fact.

And Minions > ESB (which Minions easily does, even adjusted and including all re-releases) only gets you so far in the "significant" and "popular" and "fan loved" and "will endure" stakes.

You seem to think that I'm conflating "popularity" with "quality." I assure you that I am not. My pointing out the box office success of the first two ST movies versus any two other SW (outside of ANH) movies is just to highlight how remarkable of a job I think Disney/LFL did in capturing an audience. That counts for something, right? It may say very little about quality, but does say something about financial success. That was my point.

All of my box office stats were in response to the idea that someone else running LFL would *make more money* with this franchise. All I'm saying is: why should I believe that if George Lucas himself couldn't do it? Simple.

Um, excuse me - a flurry of news stories at the time of TLJ's release dug up several "selected" quotes from Starlog in 1980 (whose head writer at the time despised SW over Trek, which he'd written for - but that was never mentioned in the 2017 articles) to suggest that ESB was maligned by critics and disliked by a lot of the fanbase, "at least as divisive as TLJ."

What I remember of the reception for ESB was all positive. But then again, I hadn't even turned 4 years old when it came out, so I wasn't in tune with mass fan sentiment. I certainly wasn't reading Starlog yet.

 

[jye4ever]

Great post there ajp.

 

[ironwez20]

Yeaaaah we keep coming back to this.

Its 50/50. Although those that hate it , hate it with a passion. The other 50 percent loved it to like it. Dunno how many love it with the passion folks hate it.

Numbers are easy to see. Its a bit of a stretch to say its the most hated of all time....

People like AOTC also, I think its the worst, but some like it. I would guess those numbers are close to 50/50 also.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Lol I don’t see 50/50 at all when it comes to the last Jedi. Unless your on s last Jedi love page

 

[ironwez20]

I was just gonna let it go since he's just a boy and SNIKT can no longer train him, lol.

Rots was the best of the prequel trilogy was it not? Lol. I can’t believe y’all hate Rots but everything in the ST has been great to you guys. Again rots ain’t perfect but it ain’t responsible for almost killing a brand off.

When sonic the hedgehog and Spider-Man has more views then a recent star wars trailer you got a huge ****ing problem.

 

[Prime Clone]

anyone praising either AOTC or ROTS as being better films than TLJ just makes me wonder . . .

ROTS at least comes close. In fact I put ROTS/ROTJ/TFA/TLJ almost on a par.

I'll happily admit the ST are *technically* better films than the PT, if you're only talking acting and directing.

But do I care as much about the characters? And is it a better story? I'm not so sure. Of course it has as much to do with nostalgia/emotional baggage as the flms themselves.

Palpatine's master plan was a masterstroke. If TROS can bring it to a satisfying conclusion (thus justifying the whole ST) I'll be happy.

 

[ajp4mgs]

When sonic the hedgehog and Spider-Man has more views then a recent star wars trailer you got a huge ****ing problem.

If you're going to judge how healthy SW is based off of the trailer views, then you're in for a shock! TFA did $2 billion at the BO, and its first trailer had *HALF* of the views that the TROS trailer got. And the TROS trailer got more views than the TLJ trailer did. How's that a "huge ****ing problem?" Isn't it the opposite?

Here's a link with the stats:

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/24...een-watched-a-record-breaking-number-of-times

And here's a quote from the article:

"In its first day of availability, the first Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker trailer was watched more than 111 million times. That’s 20 million more views than what The Last Jedi’s teaser trailer and more than double the views that The Force Awakens’ teaser trailer got in its first 24 hours back in late November of 2014."

 

[ironwez20]

If you're going to judge how healthy SW is based off of the trailer views, then you're in for a shock! TFA did $2 billion at the BO, and its first trailer had *HALF* of the views that the TROS trailer got. And the TROS trailer got more views than the TLJ trailer did. How's that a "huge ****ing problem?" Isn't it the opposite?

Here's a link with the stats:

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/24...een-watched-a-record-breaking-number-of-times

And here's a quote from the article:

"In its first day of availability, the first Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker trailer was watched more than 111 million times. That’s 20 million more views than what The Last Jedi’s teaser trailer and more than double the views that The Force Awakens’ teaser trailer got in its first 24 hours back in late November of 2014."

Lol buddy this is the final entry of a saga and there is little to know hype. What you talking bout? Tfa trailer got 103 mil views. That’s a **** ton. Look I know u love this new saga a lot along with the 4 others but Star Wars is def declining compared to the massive hype of tfa. That movie was everywhere. Who the hell is talking about tros rn? Not even you guys.

 

[rushmore223]

Lol buddy this is the final entry of a saga and there is little to know hype. What you talking bout? Tfa trailer got 103 mil views. That’s a **** ton. Look I know u love this new saga a lot along with the 4 others but Star Wars is def declining compared to the massive hype of tfa. That movie was everywhere. Who the hell is talking about tros rn? Not even you guys.

Last time I checked, 111 million was more than 103 million.

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[ironwez20]

Last time I checked, 111 million was more than 103 million.

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It was watched 111 mil times. By the same people. Sooooo yea. YouTube views work on how many new people watch the trailer from different places .....

Sorry guys I feel like I rain on ur parade sometimes lmao not trying to be a downer . Just debating. It’s a fun *** topic to discuss. I don’t hate TLJ with blinding rage btw. Just thought it was meh

 

[rushmore223]

It was watched 111 mil times. By the same people. Sooooo yea. YouTube views work on how many new people watch the trailer from different places .....

And your point?

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[ironwez20]

And your point?

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Point is that the trailer could be watched by a hardcore Star Wars fan millions of times but it won’t count cause it’s the same dude watching it over and over again. Get it? The views count when it’s different people not the same few hardcore Star Wars fans watching the trailer over and over

 

[rushmore223]

Point is that the trailer could be watched by a hardcore Star Wars fan millions of times but it won’t count cause it’s the same dude watching it over and over again. Get it? The views count when it’s different people not the same few hardcore Star Wars fans watching the trailer over and over

As with any trailer on YouTube.

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