Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ironwez20]

As with any trailer on YouTube.

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Nah son look at the TROS views. Like I said the views count when there’s different people watching not the same guy. That’s how YouTube works .

 

[aussiebottt]

Rots was the best of the prequel trilogy was it not? Lol. I can’t believe y’all hate Rots but everything in the ST has been great to you guys. Again rots ain’t perfect but it ain’t responsible for almost killing a brand off.

When sonic the hedgehog and Spider-Man has more views then a recent star wars trailer you got a huge ****ing problem.

Great post Wez! Anybody who says TLJ was better than the prequel trilogy makes me wonder. People will be watching PT in 20 years time for entertainment but they'll be studying TLJ in 20 years time in regards to how to ruin a franchise.

 

[ShadowX81]

The prequel trilogy and the sequels were both god awful in their own ways.

The prequel trilogy had the core skeleton of some good ideas, but done in the worst possible way. The dialogue, acting, and editing are amateurish at best, god awful at worst. The characters were mostly well casted (all of them are excellent actors) but they are stuck delivering wooden performances. It didn't help that Lucas insisted on using CGI when the technology was still in its infancy, making the whole thing look artificial. Lucas has always been a much better idea guy than a director or writer, and it shines through here during every single second of this mess. Its almost baffling that a product this incompetently made actually made its way to the big screen. But still, there are some truly iconic moments to be had here.

The sequel trilogy is like a crap sandwich made by a 5 star chef. It may be made well and look pretty, but when you sink your teeth in you realize that its still just eating crap. The direction, acting, and overall look of the film are all top notch; but the movies are completely devoid of almost any creativity or anything resembling a good idea. Overall this series is a soulless, empty, corporate product that has made almost no meaningful impact on pop culture, which even the poorly made prequels managed to do.

 

[aussiebottt]

I would also COUNTER argue that a producer that sees huge problems in a production, fires the director and spends massive amounts of money on reshoots and new directors is actually a GOOD producer. No one can see the future , and a lousy producer would just let it fly and come out terrible. A good one would do whats needed to save the film and get the product they wanted out to the public.

I would counter argue that those are the qualities of a dictator who can't handle anybody else having a vision different to hers. So she needs to fire people and order reshoots to bring it all back to her way.

 

[TaliBane]

Yes. And more than half of that global difference will be from China. I'm not going to dispute that the MCU is more popular than SW overseas (and especially in China).

Star Wars, as you and I agree, is unusually reliant on nostalgia to drive the fan enthusiasm. The majority of that nostalgia comes from what the OT did for us. In places like China, they weren't exposed to the OT when it was being released, and didn't get swept up in the phenomenon. But with the MCU, they got to be there from the beginning. That connection with a franchise from the start matters in terms of maintaining fidelity for the franchise moving forward. No one in charge at LFL would've been able to change that.

But you're crossing out China because they don't get it (and I think it has more to do with a different cultural view of fantasy/sci-fi versus the "arrived too late" hypothesis the entertainment media like to repeat - the Chinese have TOTALLY different takes on zombies, vampires and ghosts to Westerners for example) while ignoring a host of factors that make TPM vs TFA less apples to apples.

While the number of screens in the U.S. hasn't grown hugely in the past two decades, globally it's grown much more (especially since digital in 2007) - Asia especially obviously, but also other places like Eastern Europe/Russia (Russia emerged from the cold war just before TPM but in TFA era has over 4000 screens) and even fairly mature markets like SW-loving Australia have grown from a bit over 1000 screens in the mid 1990s to over 2000 screens today. In the UK it's like 2500 to over 4000 from 1990s to today. You can't look at GL vs Disney BO in the UK and Australia (two of the bigger SW markets) and ignore that screen growth.

And what about the radically different media landscape that shapes releases today (mag/newspaper advertising still ruled in 1999...) and the skyrocketing of branded IP that has grotesquely distorted film-going (Marvel represents HOW MUCH of total yearly BO?!) where mega-hyped mega-brands seem to be all anyone wants to see in this era. A LOT has changed in those GL vs Disney eras.

And finally, people like to say the "arrived too late" thing to explain TLJ's collapse in China but adjusted, TPM made double to three times as much as TLJ and TFA in other Asian countries like Japan and Taiwan (in Japan it's staggering - adjusted TPM made $200m+ whereas TLJ made $66m and TFA made $97m.) That's a whole lot less butts on seats and Japan is SW crazy.

You're making my point for me. With GL's first two SW films since the OT, and plenty of goodwill with the fans in the figurative bank at that point, he couldn't match the audience grab of what even lesser franchises could eventually get. The ST, following the less-than-stellar PT, has managed to do better at bringing in paying customers.

AOTC wasn't even the highest-grossing film in the year of its release. Both TFA and TLJ were! Just look at the list of franchise films that TLJ had to contend with in 2017 to get the #1 crown! And the only reason TROS won't be #1 too is because AEG is the global monster that it is. GL's second trilogy, even when just getting off the ground with TPM, didn't grab fans the way the ST (especially TFA) did. Why not credit LFL/Disney for that, instead of saying that other people could do better? Lucas himself, when given a prime opportunity, did really well financially . . . but not as well as the current LFL has done with the ST.

Never place me in a position to defend the PT lol) but GL was trying something different to the OT. Yes, we get Palps and Yoda overkill (and a Ben who's not "our" Ben,) and R2/3PO, but GL had no Han/Luke/Leia, no Chewy (cameo only,) no new Death Star, no Falcon, no TIEs/X-wings, no stormtroopers, very little OT goodies and a quite drastically different overall look. That was his choice and whatever, but to compare what Lucas tried (and yes, in my eyes too, failed spectacularly) to a trilogy that has Luke/Han/Leia, a new Vader in mask, a new girl-Luke (...Skywalker) complete in desert dweller duds and no parents, a new DS, a new Boba Fett, TIEs/Falcon/X-wings and a new AND old Palps slap) plus all the rest... is not really fair.

For better or for worse, the ST is a 100% retread (story and visuals) of the OT, whereas Lucas went in a different direction when he could have done what Disney did.

Knowing what we all (including GL...) know now - at its core that SW is a nostalgia-driven OT-linked experience - would GL have done what he did in the 1990's? Maybe not. But Disney certainly knew that all they had to do was photocopy the OT however imperfectly and funhouse mirror-like and the fans would go crazy. Corporations are experts at distilling appeal and delivering it just as the consumer wants.

They delivered something that "looks" and "feels" like SW which after the experimental migraine and associated trauma of the PT, was exactly what everyone wanted. Mac & Cheese SW - comfort food.

All I can do is give you my opinion, TaliBane. And as I see it, critics aren't fans. They judge a film by what it achieves as a cinematic entry. Fans judge a film by how it makes them feel, and whether their favorite characters/storylines got treated properly.

Critics appreciated TLJ for filmmaking criteria that most fans couldn't give a **** about. Conversely, fans are much more likely to be turned off when they hear Mark Hamill questioning the characterization of Luke; while critics aren't likely to factor that in to their view.

I'm a white, conservative, straight male. I am everything that Hollywood and mainstream media says is wrong with the world. But I still saw TLJ the way the critics did. My experience watching TLJ was the same as theirs, without any of the agenda that they might've had. I don't know what to tell you.

You umm... carefully removed the meat from the sandwich and then bit into it.

We're talking about the frenzied identity politics context of "inclusive" TLJ's release and what that effect it might have had on (overwhelmingly) white male CRITICS - not you, average white boy. You with pony tail and your far right views and living in your Mom's basement can just shut your privileged misogynistic mouth and stop hacking Rotten Tomatoes.

To try to say there wasn't a very powerful drive to give a SW film that's cleverly (they knew what they were doing) sold as "newly" progressive and inclusive a positive review is utterly false. We're in an age where a critic doesn't like a certain movie and there's at minimum a question as to "the real reason" why they didn't like it (ie. not female, not POC, not transgender, insert any group etc.,) at maximum an instant social media campaign to get that pale, male and stale *** fired.

You seem to think that I'm conflating "popularity" with "quality." I assure you that I am not. My pointing out the box office success of the first two ST movies versus any two other SW (outside of ANH) movies is just to highlight how remarkable of a job I think Disney/LFL did in capturing an audience. That counts for something, right? It may say very little about quality, but does say something about financial success. That was my point.

All of my box office stats were in response to the idea that someone else running LFL would *make more money* with this franchise. All I'm saying is: why should I believe that if George Lucas himself couldn't do it? Simple.

The KK thing to me is that she's neither here nor there - she wasn't a genre fan growing up like Feige but also wasn't a strong development producer. And even more than Marvel (which has a steady stream of comic stories to intertwine) SW needed someone who knew story and development - a vision. It's not like running a movie studio, which she might have been better suited for. The job she was tasked with was far more difficult than anyone imagined, and the appeal of SW far more fickle than anyone imagined.

Would SW have made more money under someone more suited? No. But better movies? Probably. Great movies? We'll never know. Anyone that calls the ST great filmmaking doesn't know a great filmmaking.

Corporations love the likes of JJ (and KK) as franchise chameleons, and that's why KK hired him (and Disney hired her,) but to me they are the antithesis of great movies and are part of the reason movies are in the sad state they are in. Give me a ST directed by Fincher (who was an FX cameraman on ROTJ as a teen) and Nolan. But a KK would not hire them, and neither would Disney. We have what we have, and we will never know what we might have had.

What I remember of the reception for ESB was all positive. But then again, I hadn't even turned 4 years old when it came out, so I wasn't in tune with mass fan sentiment. I certainly wasn't reading Starlog yet.

It was just a tiny part of an at-times repulsive (oh, so we don't like inclusiveness, hmmm...?) and staggeringly massive media machine that was on the hunt for anything that would bat down the idea that a TLJ "backlash" even existed, and if it did, then ways to re-contextualize, deflect or downplay it. Russians, alt-righters, racists, misogynists, old people... oh, and SW fans.

Solely because TLJ was selected as the latest progressive/identity-politics friendly vehicle that needed to be cloyingly but bitterly defended to the very end from the jackboots. That Starlog one struck me as especially false because I knew that magazine well, but it worked well as click-bait for a few days, and that's the main thing.

Yup... ESB was just so DIVIDED THE FANBASE in 1980. Just like 2017!!

 

[xipotec]

But you're crossing out China because they don't get it (and I think it has more to do with a different cultural view of fantasy/sci-fi versus the "arrived too late" hypothesis the entertainment media like to repeat - the Chinese have TOTALLY different takes on zombies, vampires and ghosts to Westerners for example) while ignoring a host of factors that make TPM vs TFA less apples to apples.

While the number of screens in the U.S. hasn't grown hugely in the past two decades, globally it's grown much more (especially since digital in 2007) - Asia especially obviously, but also other places like Eastern Europe/Russia (Russia emerged from the cold war just before TPM but in TFA era has over 4000 screens) and even fairly mature markets like SW-loving Australia have grown from a bit over 1000 screens in the mid 1990s to over 2000 screens today. In the UK it's like 2500 to over 4000 from 1990s to today. You can't look at GL vs Disney BO in the UK and Australia (two of the bigger SW markets) and ignore that screen growth.

And what about the radically different media landscape that shapes releases today (mag/newspaper advertising still ruled in 1999...) and the skyrocketing of branded IP that has grotesquely distorted film-going (Marvel represents HOW MUCH of total yearly BO?!) where mega-hyped mega-brands seem to be all anyone wants to see in this era. A LOT has changed in those GL vs Disney eras.

And finally, people like to say the "arrived too late" thing to explain TLJ's collapse in China but adjusted, TPM made double to three times as much as TLJ and TFA in other Asian countries like Japan and Taiwan (in Japan it's staggering - adjusted TPM made $200m+ whereas TLJ made $66m and TFA made $97m.) That's a whole lot less butts on seats and Japan is SW crazy.



Never place me in a position to defend the PT lol) but GL was trying something different to the OT. Yes, we get Palps and Yoda overkill (and a Ben who's not "our" Ben,) and R2/3PO, but GL had no Han/Luke/Leia, no Chewy (cameo only,) no new Death Star, no Falcon, no TIEs/X-wings, no stormtroopers, very little OT goodies and a quite drastically different overall look. That was his choice and whatever, but to compare what Lucas tried (and yes, in my eyes too, failed spectacularly) to a trilogy that has Luke/Han/Leia, a new Vader in mask, a new girl-Luke (...Skywalker) complete in desert dweller duds and no parents, a new DS, a new Boba Fett, TIEs/Falcon/X-wings and a new AND old Palps slap) plus all the rest... is not really fair.

For better or for worse, the ST is a 100% retread (story and visuals) of the OT, whereas Lucas went in a different direction when he could have done what Disney did.

Knowing what we all (including GL...) know now - at its core that SW is a nostalgia-driven OT-linked experience - would GL have done what he did in the 1990's? Maybe not. But Disney certainly knew that all they had to do was photocopy the OT however imperfectly and funhouse mirror-like and the fans would go crazy. Corporations are experts at distilling appeal and delivering it just as the consumer wants.

They delivered something that "looks" and "feels" like SW which after the experimental migraine and associated trauma of the PT, was exactly what everyone wanted. Mac & Cheese SW - comfort food.



You umm... carefully removed the meat from the sandwich and then bit into it.

We're talking about the frenzied identity politics context of "inclusive" TLJ's release and what that effect it might have had on (overwhelmingly) white male CRITICS - not you, average white boy. You with pony tail and your far right views and living in your Mom's basement can just shut your privileged misogynistic mouth and stop hacking Rotten Tomatoes.

To try to say there wasn't a very powerful drive to give a SW film that's cleverly (they knew what they were doing) sold as "newly" progressive and inclusive a positive review is utterly false. We're in an age where a critic doesn't like a certain movie and there's at minimum a question as to "the real reason" why they didn't like it (ie. not female, not POC, not transgender, insert any group etc.,) at maximum an instant social media campaign to get that pale, male and stale *** fired.



The KK thing to me is that she's neither here nor there - she wasn't a genre fan growing up like Feige but also wasn't a strong development producer. And even more than Marvel (which has a steady stream of comic stories to intertwine) SW needed someone who knew story and development - a vision. It's not like running a movie studio, which she might have been better suited for. The job she was tasked with was far more difficult than anyone imagined, and the appeal of SW far more fickle than anyone imagined.

Would SW have made more money under someone more suited? No. But better movies? Probably. Great movies? We'll never know. Anyone that calls the ST great filmmaking doesn't know a great filmmaking.

Corporations love the likes of JJ (and KK) as franchise chameleons, and that's why KK hired him (and Disney hired her,) but to me they are the antithesis of great movies and are part of the reason movies are in the sad state they are in. Give me a ST directed by Fincher (who was an FX cameraman on ROTJ as a teen) and Nolan. But a KK would not hire them, and neither would Disney. We have what we have, and we will never know what we might have had.



It was just a tiny part of an at-times repulsive (oh, so we don't like inclusiveness, hmmm...?) and staggeringly massive media machine that was on the hunt for anything that would bat down the idea that a TLJ "backlash" even existed, and if it did, then ways to re-contextualize, deflect or downplay it. Russians, alt-righters, racists, misogynists, old people... oh, and SW fans.

Solely because TLJ was selected as the latest progressive/identity-politics friendly vehicle that needed to be cloyingly but bitterly defended to the very end from the jackboots. That Starlog one struck me as especially false because I knew that magazine well, but it worked well as click-bait for a few days, and that's the main thing.

Yup... ESB was just so DIVIDED THE FANBASE in 1980. Just like 2017!!

While I disagree with alot of this, its got some great (and Fair) points. But then again , your critique of TLJ was always balanced and well thought out.

However, I think many fan did actually have the gut reaction to those small scenes of diversity, and clobbered the film after that, because they simply cannot handle diversity. After all, most other forums and media outlets thats pretty much all you hear about. So clearly there are alot of people who hate it based solely on that. IMO there are also great numbers of fans whom hate it (and were destined to hate it) since the moment Disney bought it. I have talked to quite a few people who say they hate it and they all sound like parrots, basically talking about the diversity issue and hardly mentioning acting, art, score, script .....you know the things that actually make up a film.

But good post.

I would counter argue that those are the qualities of a dictator who can't handle anybody else having a vision different to hers. So she needs to fire people and order reshoots to bring it all back to her way.

Um.....that what a producer does. They are hired to stick to the initial plan. You don’t invest millions of dollars on and approved script to let one director change all that. Not without approval from quite a few people in the chain.

Its not her fault you do not like the script.

Blame the script writers first , then her (and all of Disney) for approving and financing. As far as the REAL beef most people have, which is the diversity issue, that you can blame on just about every single person in charge at Disney since its been their mission for a long time.





Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[jye4ever]

End the Skywalker saga give me 3 solid seasons of the Mandalorian and that’s it Star Wars needs to go away for me not even new OT era stuff anymore RO took care of that already.

I’m done with SW.

Honestly it was seeing Maul brought back to life for Solo that made me realize it was time to abandon ship after TROS and Mando.

Broom boy certainly didn’t help matters any lol

 

[rushmore223]

End the Skywalker saga give me 3 solid seasons of the Mandalorian and that’s it Star Wars needs to go away for me not even new OT era stuff anymore RO took care of that already.

I’m done with SW.

Honestly it was seeing Maul brought back to life for Solo that made me realize it was time to abandon ship after TROS and Mando.

Broom boy certainly didn’t help matters any lol

Nah, I'm on board for more, so long as the story is worth telling.

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[matticus]

More money!? You think these Disney Star Wars would be making *more* money with someone else running the show? Based on what!?

TFA made more domestic gross revenue than any other film in history. Even if you adjust for inflation, only 10 movies have EVER sold more tickets. Everyone has been crapping themselves over how insanely popular Endgame is, right? Well, Endgame probably won't top TFA's domestic record. Yet, you think more money could've been made? So basically, way more than Endgame! Yeah, okay.

And it's not just TFA. TLJ and RO are both in the top 12 all-time domestic. The only reason they're not all in the top 12 globally (only RO isn't, btw) is because China doesn't give a **** about Star Wars. But you think someone else could be making more money with this franchise. Someone who "understands" Star Wars. Someone like . . . George Lucas? I think it's fair to say he understood SW better than anyone.

The ST and RO put way more ***** in seats than the Lucas-led PT (and that's adjusted for inflation, btw). With Lucas in charge, you got three movies in the 30 years between ROTJ and the Disney buyout. That's it!! Three! And not only have the Disney movies brought in bigger audiences, they have received WAY better critical reviews too. In fact, according to Metacritic's aggregate scoring from the top film critics, 2 of the top 4 SW films belong to the ST. Here's their full list:

ANH: 90
TLJ: 85
ESB: 82
TFA: 81
ROTS: 68
RO: 65
Solo: 62
ROTJ: 58
AOTC: 54
TPM: 51



You know who watched 7 and 8? More people than any other two combined SW movies since ANH. That's right: take *any two* SW movies after ANH, combine the tickets sold (adjusted for inflation), and they still can't touch the ticket sales for 7 and 8. And no two had better combined critical reviews either. That's actual reality. Those are facts, not opinions.

It sucks that you haven't been able to enjoy the new movies. And I mean that sincerely; I'm not being a **** (aka "Richard"). The PT made me feel the same way. But the truth is that no SW since ANH and ESB has been universally accepted by fans as being great. Lucas couldn't do it with ROTJ and the PT, and I doubt that anyone ever will. SW means different things to different people. Pleasing them all is impossible at this point.

Do you not understand what merchandising is? SW should've cleaned up in that department. Yet all we seen was peg warmers, bland outfits and recycled ship designs. PT sucked but with Clones and Jedi they made a killing in merchandising.

Box office means jack to me in terms of quality. Some bore fest and ridiculous CGI movies clean up better than quality films. See Transformers, Avatar. Even Avengers EG is not the best Avengers movie.

Sorry your rant was focused on BO and not merchandising like I previously posted about.

 

[rushmore223]

Do you not understand what merchandising is? SW should've cleaned up in that department. Yet all we seen was peg warmers, bland outfits and recycled ship designs. PT sucked but with Clones and Jedi they made a killing in merchandising.

Box office means jack to me in terms of quality. Some bore fest and ridiculous CGI movies clean up better than quality films. See Transformers, Avatar. Even Avengers EG is not the best Avengers movie.

Sorry your rant was focused on BO and not merchandising like I previously posted about.

It's a different world as far as toys go now. Kids are mostly fixated on iPads and electronics. Every line of action figures has suffered. Toys R Us closing down should be a big hint to that.

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[Bravomite]

It's a different world as far as toys go now. Kids are mostly fixated on iPads and electronics. Every line of action figures has suffered. Toys R Us closing down should be a big hint to that.

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The Jurassic World / Park toy line seems to be doing ok...

 

[jye4ever]

 

[rushmore223]

View attachment 454104

[emoji38]

I'll go as looking as they keep making them .

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[rushmore223]

It sucks that after episode 9, I'll be in my fifties for next star wars.

If all goes well I'll be seeing episode 20 in the theater only difference is instead of a soda I'll be bringing an ensure.

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[matticus]

It's a different world as far as toys go now. Kids are mostly fixated on iPads and electronics. Every line of action figures has suffered. Toys R Us closing down should be a big hint to that.

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I would argue that is because the leader in toys, Star Wars, is not delivering. Dark, bland and boring material is not appealing. Marvel just doesn't have the vehicles. TRU went down because of their business models, not specifically to action figures.

 

[jye4ever]

I think JJ’s reimagining of Rose from a tom boy to a woman is going to sell lots of Rose toys.

 

[Khev]

Why is she holding Zod's spaceship, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

I think it’s Finn’s

 

[chewblacca]

The biggest problem for me with the ST is the lack of a plan storywise. I know episode 5 was a reaction to how well Star Wars did, but Lucas put 5 an 6 together pretty well. The PT had an easy story to pull off since you knew where it ended. The ST however should of had the whole story planned out or at least outlined before they rolled film. Whee they wanted to go, bringing back the old crew, who lived who died, the fan service moments, everything should have been plotted out. Disney paid billions for this. To have Rian Johnson make a movie that almost erased everything done in the film before it is pure nuts. That was Kennedy’s fault. Yes she’s a great producer, but terrible at shepherding a multi movie story arc.

 

[ajp4mgs]

But you're crossing out China because they don't get it (and I think it has more to do with a different cultural view of fantasy/sci-fi versus the "arrived too late" hypothesis the entertainment media like to repeat - the Chinese have TOTALLY different takes on zombies, vampires and ghosts to Westerners for example) while ignoring a host of factors that make TPM vs TFA less apples to apples.

While the number of screens in the U.S. hasn't grown hugely in the past two decades, globally it's grown much more (especially since digital in 2007) - Asia especially obviously, but also other places like Eastern Europe/Russia (Russia emerged from the cold war just before TPM but in TFA era has over 4000 screens) and even fairly mature markets like SW-loving Australia have grown from a bit over 1000 screens in the mid 1990s to over 2000 screens today. In the UK it's like 2500 to over 4000 from 1990s to today. You can't look at GL vs Disney BO in the UK and Australia (two of the bigger SW markets) and ignore that screen growth.

And what about the radically different media landscape that shapes releases today (mag/newspaper advertising still ruled in 1999...) and the skyrocketing of branded IP that has grotesquely distorted film-going (Marvel represents HOW MUCH of total yearly BO?!) where mega-hyped mega-brands seem to be all anyone wants to see in this era. A LOT has changed in those GL vs Disney eras.

And finally, people like to say the "arrived too late" thing to explain TLJ's collapse in China but adjusted, TPM made double to three times as much as TLJ and TFA in other Asian countries like Japan and Taiwan (in Japan it's staggering - adjusted TPM made $200m+ whereas TLJ made $66m and TFA made $97m.) That's a whole lot less butts on seats and Japan is SW crazy.

If the changing landscape overseas makes TPM vs. TFA less apples-to-apples, are you saying that domestic ticket sales isn't an informative measure of total audience interest? I find it hard to believe that simply comparing domestic revenue would be a poor indicator for measuring how well a SW movie would capture a total audience globally. I really don't think the domestic/foreign splits would ever be like it is for the MCU.

As far as the other Asian countries (outside of China), if SW lost audience in places like Japan, but gained audience in the US, that's still an advantageous trade-off financially. Still more *total* butts in seats. Where in the world those butts are sitting is less relevant if the total receipts result in a net increase.

Never place me in a position to defend the PT lol) but GL was trying something different to the OT. Yes, we get Palps and Yoda overkill (and a Ben who's not "our" Ben,) and R2/3PO, but GL had no Han/Luke/Leia, no Chewy (cameo only,) no new Death Star, no Falcon, no TIEs/X-wings, no stormtroopers, very little OT goodies and a quite drastically different overall look. That was his choice and whatever, but to compare what Lucas tried (and yes, in my eyes too, failed spectacularly) to a trilogy that has Luke/Han/Leia, a new Vader in mask, a new girl-Luke (...Skywalker) complete in desert dweller duds and no parents, a new DS, a new Boba Fett, TIEs/Falcon/X-wings and a new AND old Palps slap) plus all the rest... is not really fair.

For better or for worse, the ST is a 100% retread (story and visuals) of the OT, whereas Lucas went in a different direction when he could have done what Disney did.

Knowing what we all (including GL...) know now - at its core that SW is a nostalgia-driven OT-linked experience - would GL have done what he did in the 1990's? Maybe not. But Disney certainly knew that all they had to do was photocopy the OT however imperfectly and funhouse mirror-like and the fans would go crazy. Corporations are experts at distilling appeal and delivering it just as the consumer wants.

They delivered something that "looks" and "feels" like SW which after the experimental migraine and associated trauma of the PT, was exactly what everyone wanted. Mac & Cheese SW - comfort food.

I agree with pretty much everything you state here. And I attribute the vast majority of the recycling to what JJ and KK wanted to accomplish with TFA. You don't see me going on and on about TFA the way I do about TLJ. They played it safe, and took the lazy way creatively, but it paid off big time for Disney.

Personally, I wanted a different blend of new and old. I wanted the OT characters and context back, but not in a beat-for-beat rehashing of ANH. But TFA gave us that. At least it was well-executed. Then TLJ did what it could to veer away from just making this the OT 2.0. As much as I embraced it, that didn't go so well with everyone else. Financially, they did the right thing in bringing JJ back to serve up more Mac & Cheese.

It all goes back to my original point with the box office stats. The ST is exceeding the film revenue of GL's PT. I'm not crediting them for being creative, or visionary, or vanguard in any way. I'm saying that no one else would've done a better job of bringing in audiences after the PT. The current management at LFL picked the most appeasing formula. And when they briefly (and barely) diverted from safe and familiar, it didn't pay off the same way. I think the intent, however, was always to end the ST with Mac & Cheese. Bring a nice-sized napkin to TROS.

You umm... carefully removed the meat from the sandwich and then bit into it.

We're talking about the frenzied identity politics context of "inclusive" TLJ's release and what that effect it might have had on (overwhelmingly) white male CRITICS - not you, average white boy. You with pony tail and your far right views and living in your Mom's basement can just shut your privileged misogynistic mouth and stop hacking Rotten Tomatoes.

To try to say there wasn't a very powerful drive to give a SW film that's cleverly (they knew what they were doing) sold as "newly" progressive and inclusive a positive review is utterly false. We're in an age where a critic doesn't like a certain movie and there's at minimum a question as to "the real reason" why they didn't like it (ie. not female, not POC, not transgender, insert any group etc.,) at maximum an instant social media campaign to get that pale, male and stale *** fired.

I wasn't carefully removing the "meat" from the sandwich (I'm not Chewbacca; I'll eat my Porg ). My not addressing the particulars of your argument is based on having a completely different point of view regarding motives for the positive critical reviews. But I'll try to address it better here from my perspective.

Didn't RO get released before TLJ? Did it not check off more boxes that would satisfy the diversity crusade? By your estimation, RO was a better film than TLJ, so why wouldn't critics take advantage of that to go over-the-top in their praise? It's not like December of 2016 (in the immediate aftermath of a U.S. election with the fallen female candidate) was less of a compelling time than December 2017 for these critics to maximize an agenda-driven bias for pushing identity politics.

TLJ was more about Luke Skywalker and Kylo Ren (white males) than it was about any other characters or scenarios. RO, on the other hand, focused a bit more on the lead female as being central to the plot. The movie starts with little kid Jyn, and then connects everything to her until she ultimately defies all odds and transmits the DS plans to the rebels. To add more checked boxes, she was backed by a team that was essentially a United Colors of Benetton ad. All the way down to the Asian pairing who some people wanted to insist were gay. And RO even managed to trot out Mon Mothma (yes, the female leader on Yavin all along in ANH ). Apparently, having General Dodonna (a white, old man) in charge wasn't good enough. So, should we dismiss positive critical reviews of Rogue One as being nothing more than politically-driven propaganda?

The female lead in TLJ (Rey) failed at virtually every important goal she had, and was *wrong* about her instincts regarding Kylo. Her goal to bring Luke back with her to the Resistance: fail. Convince Luke that Kylo would turn: fail. Go to Kylo and prove she was right: fail. Her great "victory" came when she lifted rocks . . . because Luke (old white male) bought her that opportunity by his outsmarting of everyone. Compare Rey's ability to convince men to join her to that of Jyn Erso.

I just don't think that the presence of Holdo and Rose amounts to very much evidence that TLJ was flying a diversity flag more than RO was. Not buying it. If critics wanted to send a message, RO would've been the biggest beneficiary.

The KK thing to me is that she's neither here nor there - she wasn't a genre fan growing up like Feige but also wasn't a strong development producer. And even more than Marvel (which has a steady stream of comic stories to intertwine) SW needed someone who knew story and development - a vision. It's not like running a movie studio, which she might have been better suited for. The job she was tasked with was far more difficult than anyone imagined, and the appeal of SW far more fickle than anyone imagined.

Would SW have made more money under someone more suited? No. But better movies? Probably. Great movies? We'll never know. Anyone that calls the ST great filmmaking doesn't know a great filmmaking.

Corporations love the likes of JJ (and KK) as franchise chameleons, and that's why KK hired him (and Disney hired her,) but to me they are the antithesis of great movies and are part of the reason movies are in the sad state they are in. Give me a ST directed by Fincher (who was an FX cameraman on ROTJ as a teen) and Nolan. But a KK would not hire them, and neither would Disney. We have what we have, and we will never know what we might have had.

That part in bold was all I was getting at. I was responding to the idea that they would have made more money.

I appreciate these discussions with you, and am grateful for your intelligent and insightful perspective, but I really wasn't trying to substitute or conflate revenue generation with quality film output. Personally, I'm really fond of TLJ. I can also enjoy watching TFA and RO. Are any of them in the same league as ANH or ESB? No way! Could someone else have made better films? Absolutely! But, would they have made more money? Probably not. And you have provided the reason why: Mac & Cheese. A truly great SW film would need to be challenging (IMO), and groundbreaking. Tougher to do that and still have that nice melted artificial cheese.