Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[SvenDokki]

Don't know why, but publisher managed to break the consistency of Visual Dictionaries. TFA and TLJ are the standart format. With TROS, they changed to Solo format which is more square.
Now, visual dictionaries of ST doesn't have a uniform design.

Like the movies themselves!

The horror!

 

[Khev]

The overriding issue for me is that this all feels super dense and intellectual.

To me this is no more dense or intellectual than having to theorize how John Connor can be conceived by a soldier in the future without there having first been an alternate John, or having to theorize how the heck Cap could have fused the timelines into one while somehow still coming up with an alternate and pristine shield. I personally am satisfied with my head canon for each but like TROS and even the OT I'm sure that I probably have put way more thought into it than the writers themselves (and I'm including James Cameron and GL in that group of writers) and I have no problem with that.

A couple of basic points to clarify first:

The idea of "group possession" - so, as I understand it, the Sith (thousands of individuals over centuries) are like a whole linear "human centipede of evil" that all now reside in Palps. They are all living/active in him as both individual identities and as a mass identity. e.g. "individually" Qui Gonn is one of the voices that speaks up to inspire Rey, therefore a specific Sith lord spirit might similarly try to address/influence Palps.

And so if he were to be "struck down" by Rey (if he's indeed "alive" - even that's unclear,) Palps would simply become yet another Sith in the huge crowd residing within Empress Rey wouldn't he?

See here you're applying the "group support" that Rey received to Palpatine (as the HR article erroneously IMO did as well.) I don't think that Palps would have gotten absorbed into an eternal conclave of Sith cheerleaders, it was just him calling the shots IMO. I don't think he heard any voices at all (in his head anyway), he only felt and used the power of previously murdered Sith. The counterpoint to Rey's supporters were actually the bleachers filled with living Sith Eternal Cultists in hoods that were surrounding them. So Palps' supporters were living in the flesh and physically present but were still a mere shadow of the spiritual support Rey was receiving.

On the good/Jedi side, Rey is different - she's her own person but who kinda gets "group hugged" (in effect filling her up so Palps gets the "no room at the inn" sign if he tries to "enter" her) at the climactic moment by lots of dead Jedi spirits. Some of whom were force ghosts and "lived on" but also others who simply died (but somehow their spirits lived on to speak to her in the same way Ben K spoke to Luke in ANH)? So the force ghost thing isn't necessary for deceased Jedi to speak to the living, like they do to Rey?

This one can go a couple ways. For one there have always been inconsistencies with how good Jedi "live on" after death. Vader obviously didn't disappear when he died in front of Luke but still appeared as a ghost at the end of ROTJ. Qui Gon also didn't disappear but apparently was able to do the same. The Annotated ROTJ screenplay says that Ben and Yoda were able to step in and "save" Anakin's spirit from becoming one with the Force, so maybe that's what they did for all the previously dead Jedi too. Obviously the films alone aren't 100% clear on how that works.

Or...and this might ruffle some feathers, but just going by what *is* said on screen perhapes TROS finally gives us an example eight episodes later of what Qui Gon was actually talking about when he says that midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms that "continually speak to us telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you." Now this only just occurred to me but when someone *does* hear the midichlorians what do they sound like? Do they have a unique "voice" or might they communicate through the voice of a past Jedi or multiple past Jedi? Maybe we heard Luke and Yoda and Ben but the other Jedi like Mace Windu and Ahsoka were the midichlorians either speaking as them or giving them a presence to speak through them.

Food for thought since if you do except a nine episode narrative then Episode I does indeed set up that a Jedi with a proper mindset does hear actual voices and that finally happens in the Saga's conclusion. Maybe Rey was guided by speech through the midichlorians and JJ did sneak in an aspect of George's microbiotic trilogy.

And to Palps - what do we see in TROS?

Is he the living person named Palps we saw in ROTJ who somehow survived (now older and crumbling away,) or a clone of that deceased person (which might have Palps' "spirit/persona" the way a clone in a sci-fi movie would have a replication of the original persona,) or a soulless clone "meat puppet" animated by Palps' spectral identity - which may be just his evil mind/spirit, or combined with thousands of other deceased Sith?

Just trying to establish basics.

I honestly am really enjoying the multiple theories of Palps' lifespan, Clown Prince's thought that we finally met the "original" Palps, the true "phantom menace" and that Eps I-VI Palps was always a clone is just brilliant IMO. I probably lean toward there has been one Palps tricking his apprentices into "murdering" him and thus giving him their souls for generations or even millennia on end and that PT and OT and TROS Palps are all the same guy but I'm totally fine with that one being left to endless speculation.

 

[jye4ever]

Didn?t Palp tell Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them.


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[ajp4mgs]

Speak for yourself because Vader not grabbing the Falcon was always a question mark for me on successive viewings of ESB especially in the very same film that Yoda speaks at length about the Force being equally capable of moving a starship as it was a small rock and that was decades before TROS. Rey and Kylo stopping the transport is a simple continuation of Yoda's teachings, not a contradiction at all.

You're citing the perfect source, but you're ignoring the context. When Yoda spoke about how lifting a starship is no different than lifting a rock, we know that he didn't mean that it required equal effort because George Lucas showed us what it takes just to move a *stationary* powered-down starship. Yoda closed his eyes, concentrated hard, and moved it very slowly from a swamp to a patch of land a few feet out in front. Lifting a powered-down starship, very slowly and with deep concentration, was meant to demonstrate the upper limits of incredible power the Force can provide. Pulling an accelerating starship out of the sky is way different.

And, luckily, we don't even have to guess what George Lucas intended when it comes to using the Force to stop an accelerating starship. He gave us plenty of examples where that ability would've been attempted by incredibly powerful Force users. And it wasn't just Vader not pulling the Falcon from escaping Hoth.

In TPM, Lucas made it a very clear point that Darth Maul was powerless to pull a starship. Maul wanted to end Qui-Gon then and there on Tatooine, but as soon as Qui-Gon got onto the *slowly-moving* ship, Maul stood there helplessly. That was George Lucas letting us know that a skilled Sith pulling an accelerating starship would be absurd.

In AOTC, Obi-Wan was going to great lengths to keep Jango on Kamino. Obi-Wan had to resort to throwing a tracking beacon at the ship. That was George Lucas telling us that a skilled Jedi pulling an accelerating starship would be absurd.

And then comes Yoda himself. The most powerful Jedi of his time had to strain like crazy to keep debris from falling when Dooku made his escape from Geonosis. That debris wasn't falling with propelled velocity; it was just simple gravity. And Yoda made no attempt to stop Dooku's ship . . . because it would've been absurd.

Even in TROS itself, Luke (a ****ing Force ghost with no physical body limitations!) was shown using the same concentration as Yoda to move the same stationary X-Wing. But in the same movie, Rey just reaches her hand out to stop a ship that was accelerating with full thrusters . . . and actually starts bringing it back!

To top it off, Kylo showed that he could do it too, after somehow walking away without a scratch from a TIE Fighter crash that included a full-speed barrell roll.

"Then why didn't Vader stop the Falcon?" Well why didn't he stop Luke from falling off the gantry? Would you suggest that a single person falling would also have been too much of a strain? I would think not. In both instances Vader could presumably have used the Force to prevent characters from escaping and yet he didn't. Do I bring that up to say "see ESB is full of plot holes, any problem you have with TROS is the same as ESB." No, that is not my point. Because neither moment in ESB breaks the story in any way for me (and I suspect you as well) because I can simply assume that the escaping Falcon caught Vader off guard or he didn't fully process how it could be used as bait in that very instance and so didn't have the mental wherewithal to instantly concentrate on the Force.

Or if you do want to assume that Vader wanted the Falcon as bait right from the get go well we saw what happened to the Transport in TROS and obviously that wouldn't have been what Vader would want to risk doing to the Falcon.

As far as Vader not grabbing Luke with the Force as he fell from the gantry, it may not make sense on the surface, but is something that is dwarfed by the overall story value of ESB. The story value of TROS, on the other hand, doesn't justify handwaving TONS of bad plot logic.

I can just say that Vader didn't stop Luke because his heart was never really into bringing his son to the Emperor if Luke had no intention to follow Vader's wishes. Done. And, thankfully, ESB doesn't suffer from an amateurish script that bombards me with a barrage of logic problems to have to justify on my own.

 

[Khev]

I watched half of ESB on Disney+ last night and no longer had any feelings of dismay that if I allow the ST to be canon that things just end badly and tragically for the heroes. It was kind of cool in fact to see Han and think yeah one day he'll directly inspire his son to do what is necessary to take down the head of all evil in the galaxy once and for all.

So yeah ST is canon for me.

 

[Khev]

You're citing the perfect source, but you're ignoring the context. When Yoda spoke about how lifting a starship is no different than lifting a rock, we know that he didn't mean that it required equal effort because George Lucas showed us what it takes just to move a *stationary* powered-down starship. Yoda closed his eyes, concentrated hard, and moved it very slowly from a swamp to a patch of land a few feet out in front. Lifting a powered-down starship, very slowly and with deep concentration, was meant to demonstrate the upper limits of incredible power the Force can provide. Pulling an accelerating starship out of the sky is way different.

And, luckily, we don't even have to guess what George Lucas intended when it comes to using the Force to stop an accelerating starship. He gave us plenty of examples where that ability would've been attempted by incredibly powerful Force users. And it wasn't just Vader not pulling the Falcon from escaping Hoth.

In TPM, Lucas made it a very clear point that Darth Maul was powerless to pull a starship. Maul wanted to end Qui-Gon then and there on Tatooine, but as soon as Qui-Gon got onto the *slowly-moving* ship, Maul stood there helplessly. That was George Lucas letting us know that a skilled Sith pulling an accelerating starship would be absurd.

In AOTC, Obi-Wan was going to great lengths to keep Jango on Kamino. Obi-Wan had to resort to throwing a tracking beacon at the ship. That was George Lucas telling us that a skilled Jedi pulling an accelerating starship would be absurd.

And then comes Yoda himself. The most powerful Jedi of his time had to strain like crazy to keep debris from falling when Dooku made his escape from Geonosis. That debris wasn't falling with propelled velocity; it was just simple gravity. And Yoda made no attempt to stop Dooku's ship . . . because it would've been absurd.

Even in TROS itself, Luke (a ****ing Force ghost with no physical body limitations!) was shown using the same concentration as Yoda to move the same stationary X-Wing. But in the same movie, Rey just reaches her hand out to stop a ship that was accelerating with full thrusters . . . and actually starts bringing it back!
To top it off, Kylo showed that he could do it too, after somehow walking away without a scratch from a TIE Fighter crash that included a full-speed barrell roll.

None of that contradicts the fact that in ESB Yoda clearly stated that moving something large still comes down to a combination of belief and your connection to the Force and even gives a full demonstration. This was such an established fact that by the time TLJ rolled around legions of fans were put off by the fact that Master Luke wasn't "pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky." In other words it's one of the oldest established abilities of any Force user and audiences were more than ready to see it play out on screen in epic fashion.

Pulling down a mere transport (or outright nuking it I guess in Rey's case, lol) hardly flies in the face (no pun intended) of anything that has come before.

Are you really going to claim that moving ships with your mind breaks previous Episodes after arguing the opposite about the Holdo Maneuver for two straight years?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Did you do a fuller review of TROS? I really wish there was a "review" thread here for each movie so you could scroll through reviews long and short to see what everyone thought.

Maybe not in the sense of an "official" review, but I've posted a lot about my reaction to TROS. I found the constant procession of contrivances and plot conveniences to go way beyond the bounds of acceptable limits. The writing was extremely lazy, void of virtually any substance, and lacking much thematic cohesion. I wasn't prepared for that extent of narrative flaws with a film this highly "important" to both the saga and the studio. The fact that they fired one writer/director (Trevorrow) for an underwhelming script and then gave this one a thumbs up is mind-blowing to me.

In much the same way as Prime Clone has stated, I could probably find a way to forgive all of those structural problems if not for a few unacceptable plot points. His problem is Rey being a Palpatine, but my biggest issue goes beyond that with how TROS positions Rey relative to the *actual* Skywalkers from the Lucas movies. The plot drivers in TROS glorify Rey in such a way as to take a complete dump on the Anakin setup from the PT, and then have her inherit and overshadow everything from the OT heroes. Rey becomes the linchpin centerpiece of the saga at the expense of three generations of Skywalkers.

Not only was Rey the one who defeated the saga's main villain (after Yoda, Luke, and Anakin all failed), she was also handed nearly everything (both literally and figuratively) that once belonged to the OT heroes. Luke's lightsaber, Leia's lightsaber, Luke's X-Wing, the Falcon, the Lars homestead, the "Chosen One" status, the Skywalker legacy . . . all basically handed over to SuperRey. But at least Maz gave the medal to Chewie, otherwise SuperRey would've gotten that too. . The key problem with it is that it's all still far too unearned as far as I'm concerned. It was too easy for Rey. And, much like the TROS plotting itself, it was all too convenient.

So the saga ends with a Palpatine inheriting things from the Skywalkers that represented their heritage, their struggle, and their hard work. But, in contrast, Rey got it all by having almost everything just come to her by way of convenience or coincidence. She was able to do things by instinct that the alleged "Chosen One" could never do (and fell to the dark side over!). Even the final victory was achieved by simply crossing two lightsabers together after getting a Jedi pep talk.

And since Palps told Rey that killing him would allow his spirit to inhabit her body, I have no reason to believe that he's not inside there cackling maniacally at having ended three generations of Skywalkers. After all, with the remnants of the FO (largely unseen in TROS) still viable, what is preventing the Reign of Palpatine II? Skywalkers had the struggles, and a Palpatine gets the rewards.

As for the positives, most of them are either superficial or tangential to the main plot. The Han and Ben scene worked for me. Having Luke catch the lightsaber to give his FU line actually worked for me too. A lot of Poe's humor (and Threepio's) landed with me. I liked the Sith Temple on Exogol, and a few other visuals. But not much else. The whole endeavor was mostly a mess, even after watching it a second time to see if I was overreacting the first go around.

To sum things up: I didn't like it.

I find it fascinating that the two people on here with the most encyclopedic knowledge of SW - you and Khev - whose views I always love to read (and argue with) are diametrically opposed on this movie.

I think Khev is guided by heart when it comes to SW. It's a quality that I envy because I really want to like movies like TROS. I just can't reward poor writing and storytelling by making excuses for a movie that I want to enjoy. Not saying that's what Khev is doing; just saying that's what *I* would have to do. There's just too much saga-wrecking nonsense for me in TROS.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Jake Lloyd's voice at the end?

"Are you an angel?"

My 15 year old nephew watched this. Didn't like it. My 18 year old niece said Rey Palpatine was stupid.

 

[Prime Clone]

Well said as usual ajp! Yes there were enjoyable bits but sadly these were overshadowed by the fatal flaws and bloated, rushed storytelling.

Judging by the RT audience score we?re in the minority, so most raters must be casual fans who don?t much care for how it fits with the rest of the saga.

 

[Khev]

Original ending before the reshoots:

"What's your name dearie?"

"Rey."

"What's your full name?

"GUN-ray."

Rey smiles and looks at the camera, her eyes turn yellow, end credits.

 

[Khev]

https://www.vulture.com/amp/2019/1...alker-box-office-uncut-gems-little-women.html
Highest holiday sales.

Second only to TFA

Okay $516 million in eight days never mind about this one not hitting a billion it should easily do that now. It's post-weekend dailies are tracking significantly higher than both RO and TLJ.

 

[jkno]

Just watched it.

I found the following things hilariously sad, some were indeed visually stunning, but in the end they were very unimaginative and illogical, even in the Star Wars space opera universe:

- raising Star Destroyers from ground and putting them on display like Hotwheels toys, where were these ships all these years?
- continuous hyperjumping - yeah, that is not how it worked in SW, but now we can get anything
- Palpatine returned - no more interesting villains, needed to dig up that old fossil to save the face? So now he is really really really dead? Or we'll get the next Sequel of Sequel with Palpatine's resurrected ghost or something? Though McDiarmid again did a good job portraying the sinister Emperor
- ships that stay for years in the desert, underground and under water start working at first glance.
- the Final Order? Really? Nazi final solution inspired?
- Kylo's glued up helmet - I guess the new empire is too poor to make a new one after having the 3rd Death Star got destroyed. But they do have a nice red superglue
- healing powers, heck, why not. In Jedi Knight game we had this already...
- Han Solo scene, it was supposed to be a tear jerker, it only reminded me of the bad decisions that started with TFA, and with the death of Han
- Luke scene, they tried to fix his stupid actions in TLJ, but not to much good alas. Luke deserved much better than all this. But I did like Leia's saber and at least Luke was able to raise his X-Wing unlike Dagobah
- Spacehorses on a Star Destroyer, should I laugh? Should I find it creative?
- Chewie got a medal, yeeeeey!!
- and of course we all know that Rey is the ultimate power in the galaxy, Anakin's Chosen One arc has no value anymore, and this could be a full review on its own, but not today...

Though I did like Lando (one of the highlights of TROS), the John Willams cameo in the cantina, C-3PO's scenes before the memory wipe and the special effects. The story was weak alas. Was TROS better than TLJ? Definitely, but almost anything is better than TLJ. Was TROS a good movie? Well, not really, it was mediocre at best. Good special effects, but poor story, and some can be blamed on the ties that had to be made to fix the TLJ mess. A more detailed review in the future if I get the time and patience to write one.

 

[Ehollywood]

Okay $516 million in eight days never mind about this one not hitting a billion it should easily do that now. It's post-weekend dailies are tracking significantly higher than both RO and TLJ.

A lot of people Like the movie and are seeing it multiple times. I've already watch the movie twice. The replay value is great.
Most casual movie goers I spoke too also Liked the movie. My 10 year old Nephew Loved it.

 

[sithocan]

I have no problem with no Skywalker alive at the end. If this is the end of Skywalker saga, it seems logical all Skywalkers being dead.
Yes, I am a little bit frustrated with not establishing Anakin's chosen one status with visual effects at the end.
On Palpatine killed by another Palpatine. One way to think is what all Skywalkers did was for nothing, it is another Palpatine who killed the emperor at the end.
Another possible view on this topic: Skywalkers took granddaughter of the evil, trained her as a Jedi and let her kill the evil (by the help of Anakin). The part in patenthesis should have been established better.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The replay value is great.

That's reassuring.

My 10 year old Nephew Loved it.

That's about the right age.

 

[YoNoSe]

Another item in the plus column - Leia dies holding Han’s medal, not his ex girlfriend’s dice.

 

[The Buffinator]

My 15 year old nephew watched this. Didn't like it. My 18 year old niece said Rey Palpatine was stupid.

If they were transported back to 1983 I'd be willing to bet that they'd have hated ROTJ even more than TROS. Let's face it, on average teenagers today are much more sophisticated (and cynical) than those back in 1977 to 1983. I mean, back then I thought that the Furry Lollipop Guild defeating a legion of the Emperor's finest troops was the most ridiculous plot line ever, so I can only imagine how vicious today's youth would be. I know GL was trying to draw parallels between the Ewoks and the Viet Cong, but seriously - some of the traps they had set up to take out the AT-STs would have had to be there long before they teamed up with Luke, Han, Leia, etc..(and their construction would have been detected), plus it was laughable to think that any of their primitive weapons (Arrows? Slingshots? Rocks?) would phase stormtroopers in any way whatsoever. That said, the majority of us gave them a pass because we were more interested in the culmination of our heroes' arcs and less on how they got to that point. Thirty-six years later, it seems many of us are somewhat less forgiving.

 

[YoNoSe]

Stormtrooper armor is made out of marshmallows. It even looks toasted when shot.

Except for Captain Phasma’s which can deflect lasers. Except when she’s threatened at gunpoint in TFA.

Thank God they let her stay dead. Another point to JJ.

 

[Khev]

Stormtrooper armor is made out of marshmallows. It even looks toasted when shot.

Except for Captain Phasma’s which can deflect lasers. Except when she’s threatened at gunpoint in TFA.

Zorii Bliss was JJ's answer to Rose Tico.

Instead of a frumpy chick who attacks heroes she's a babe in form fitting clothes who actually assists them on their suicide mission.

 

[jye4ever]

Maybe not in the sense of an "official" review, but I've posted a lot about my reaction to TROS. I found the constant procession of contrivances and plot conveniences to go way beyond the bounds of acceptable limits. The writing was extremely lazy, void of virtually any substance, and lacking much thematic cohesion. I wasn't prepared for that extent of narrative flaws with a film this highly "important" to both the saga and the studio. The fact that they fired one writer/director (Trevorrow) for an underwhelming script and then gave this one a thumbs up is mind-blowing to me.

In much the same way as Prime Clone has stated, I could probably find a way to forgive all of those structural problems if not for a few unacceptable plot points. His problem is Rey being a Palpatine, but my biggest issue goes beyond that with how TROS positions Rey relative to the *actual* Skywalkers from the Lucas movies. The plot drivers in TROS glorify Rey in such a way as to take a complete dump on the Anakin setup from the PT, and then have her inherit and overshadow everything from the OT heroes. Rey becomes the linchpin centerpiece of the saga at the expense of three generations of Skywalkers.

Not only was Rey the one who defeated the saga's main villain (after Yoda, Luke, and Anakin all failed), she was also handed nearly everything (both literally and figuratively) that once belonged to the OT heroes. Luke's lightsaber, Leia's lightsaber, Luke's X-Wing, the Falcon, the Lars homestead, the "Chosen One" status, the Skywalker legacy . . . all basically handed over to SuperRey. But at least Maz gave the medal to Chewie, otherwise SuperRey would've gotten that too. . The key problem with it is that it's all still far too unearned as far as I'm concerned. It was too easy for Rey. And, much like the TROS plotting itself, it was all too convenient.

So the saga ends with a Palpatine inheriting things from the Skywalkers that represented their heritage, their struggle, and their hard work. But, in contrast, Rey got it all by having almost everything just come to her by way of convenience or coincidence. She was able to do things by instinct that the alleged "Chosen One" could never do (and fell to the dark side over!). Even the final victory was achieved by simply crossing two lightsabers together after getting a Jedi pep talk.

And since Palps told Rey that killing him would allow his spirit to inhabit her body, I have no reason to believe that he's not inside there cackling maniacally at having ended three generations of Skywalkers. After all, with the remnants of the FO (largely unseen in TROS) still viable, what is preventing the Reign of Palpatine II? Skywalkers had the struggles, and a Palpatine gets the rewards.

As for the positives, most of them are either superficial or tangential to the main plot. The Han and Ben scene worked for me. Having Luke catch the lightsaber to give his FU line actually worked for me too. A lot of Poe's humor (and Threepio's) landed with me. I liked the Sith Temple on Exogol, and a few other visuals. But not much else. The whole endeavor was mostly a mess, even after watching it a second time to see if I was overreacting the first go around.

To sum things up: I didn't like it.



I think Khev is guided by heart when it comes to SW. It's a quality that I envy because I really want to like movies like TROS. I just can't reward poor writing and storytelling by making excuses for a movie that I want to enjoy. Not saying that's what Khev is doing; just saying that's what *I* would have to do. There's just too much saga-wrecking nonsense for me in TROS.

Admit it you?re buying the TROS bluray because you can?t live with that SW hole on your shelf lol

Stormtrooper armor is made out of marshmallows. It even looks toasted when shot.

Except for Captain Phasma?s which can deflect lasers. Except when she?s threatened at gunpoint in TFA.

Thank God they let her stay dead. Another point to JJ.

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