Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[The Buffinator]

Zorii Bliss was JJ's answer to Rose Tico.

Instead of a frumpy chick who attacks heroes she's a babe in form fitting clothes who actually assists them on their suicide mission.

 

[nexus]

I think the fact that everyone is continuing to pick this movie apart (good and bad) is ultimately a good thing for Disney/Star Wars because it shows that the passion for the franchise is still strong. I’ve seen the movie twice, and while I can understand and even agree with some of the criticisms and nitpicking, I think TRoS has been a great course correction. Seriously, there was no way the movie was going to please everyone, so I think J.J. made the smart choice in ditching many of the unpopular plot lines from TLJ, making a “safe” “fan-servicecy” movie, then buckling in to weather the inevitable wave of criticisms, rants, and arm-chair directing. Everyone has an opinion, and thanks to social media it?s easy to express it. However, I’m sure if you had 100 critics and/or super fans each write out a 5-page treatment of their dream Episode IX, you’d get 100 different stories of varying quality, and you’d be hard pressed to find one that would get near universal support. If there is, I’d welcome reading it. I do think some of the harsher opinions will soften over time and upon rewatch. Of course Disney/Star Wars should have gone into this trilogy with a tight plan and story arc, and approved first draft scripts for all three episodes, so hopefully they’ve learned their lesson for the future. But probably not.

The movie works for me, and I still rate it 8.5/10 behind ESB and ANH, and just above ROJ. Interestingly, I can now go back and watch TLJ, and even appreciate it more, because I feel that the sequel trilogy has a satisfying conclusion.

 

[Khev]

Indeed, lol. Also:

Nope! Rey's initial heightened abilities came from her grandfather and then the power that gave her life at the end came from a male too. I guess you can retire those t-shirts ladies, lol.

Also look who gets the "action" at the end of the movie. Rey throws herself at Ben while Poe gets denied.

KK at the premiere when she realizes that one of the main messages of her entire ST is that toxic badassery is a much better method of earning a woman's respect than letting them push you around, lol:

So I'd say the "agendas" all worked themselves out in the end.

 

[Khev]

I’ve seen the movie twice, and while I can understand and even agree with some of the criticisms and nitpicking, I think TRoS has been a great course correction. Seriously, there was no way the movie was going to please everyone, so I think J.J. made the smart choice in ditching many of the unpopular plot lines from TLJ, making a “safe” “fan-servicecy” movie, then buckling in to weather the inevitable wave of criticisms, rants, and arm-chair directing. Everyone has an opinion, and thanks to social media it?s easy to express it. However, I’m sure if you had 100 critics and/or super fans each write out a 5-page treatment of their dream Episode IX, you’d get 100 different stories of varying quality, and you’d be hard pressed to find one that would get near universal support.

So, so true. In fact the core disagreements on TROS that I'm seeing are the result of simple differences of opinion on how the story was "supposed" to end. "I wanted Supreme Leader Kylo, not the Emperor," "I wanted Rey to be a Skywalker, not a Palpatine," and so on. Those who are happy with the story and execution tend to be content filling the gaps in the most flattering light while those that hated the story tend to invent plot holes that aren't there to further justify their own hatred.

"That is the way."

 

[Sassafras]

Well said as usual ajp! Yes there were enjoyable bits but sadly these were overshadowed by the fatal flaws and bloated, rushed storytelling.

Judging by the RT audience score we?re in the minority, so most raters must be casual fans who don?t much care for how it fits with the rest of the saga.

But far as I know, there isn't a rating system anywhere where u can check "eh".

Dunno about raters but yesterday went to Jumanji and hordes of adults towing their little tykes to theater to see TROS. So, no, a fair number of viewers weren't even born re the entire saga.

For myself aside from the plot holes it was just too fluffy a crowd pleaser video game and by all the gawds, Rey was gonna end up uber-powered heir apparent. Really didn't matter how; that was a given. Meanwhile stuff I'd have like to have seen got shunted aside. Weird stuff like the Lando thing WTF. Never wanted the Palpatine thing, at all. Re-hash stuff like I'm pretty sure the wave footage was borrowed from Perfect Storm and Harry Potter did some stuff better.

Will watch again when it makes its way to Disney+. Maybe. Kudos to the actors tho no wonder they seem exhausted in interviews.

 

[Khev]

I'm pretty sure the wave footage was borrowed from Perfect Storm

Okay now that scene where George Clooney and Mark Wahlberg going flying over Rey and Kylo's heads as they're dueling makes much more sense now, lol.

 

[jedibear]

My 15 year old nephew watched this. Didn't like it. My 18 year old niece said Rey Palpatine was stupid.

"Truly wonderful the mind of a child is " - Yoda, AOTC

 

[Prime Clone]

I guess I should feel lucky, out of nine major episodes I found something to like in eight of them. That's more than can be said for many.

Two things JJ said about TLJ don't seem to have been borne out in the final product:

* It inspired him to take risks
* RJ's best move was casting Kelly Marie Tran

 

[Khev]

I guess I should feel lucky, out of nine major episodes I found something to like in eight of them. That's more than can be said for many.

Two things JJ said about TLJ don't seem to have been borne out in the final product:

* It inspired him to take risks
* RJ's best move was casting Kelly Marie Tran

That right there shows just how much JJ must have despised TLJ, lol. "Rose Tico? She was probably the *best* thing about that movie. Don't even get me started on everything else..."

 

[Sassafras]

Okay now that scene where George Clooney and Mark Wahlberg going flying over Rey and Kylo's heads as they're dueling makes much more sense now, lol.

U didn't notice Whalberg on top of the 100-foot wave with the sunbeam glowing on him talking about inner peace?

LOL I didn't like Perfect Storm (liked the book) and no Harry Potter fan. OK, I'd rather watch TROS.

At least TROS has guns I mean blasters. And the stuff I liked, too.

 

[Khev]

I'm thinking that your perfect end to TROS would have gone something like this:

Rey and Palpatine are shooting Force energy at one another, neither giving ground to the other.

Suddenly a flurry of blaster fire guns them both down and each lies lifeless on the ground. Camera pans to show Mando dueling wielding two smoking blasters. He turns and leaves, teenage Yoda sits on the throne, end credits.

 

[Prime Clone]

That right there shows just how much JJ must have despised TLJ, lol. "Rose Tico? She was probably the *best* thing about that movie. Don't even get me started on everything else..."

 

[SwedishHeat]

the John Willams cameo in the cantina,

Oooooooh, that's who that was, the guy with the oversized monocle?

They paused on him for too long to just be a random patron, that makes sense now.

 

[SvenDokki]

The plot is like a Swiss cheese bucket that leaks all over. Do you ignore all the holes when at the end there’s nothing left in the bucket except contradiction that undermines and destroys the plots of the previous trilogies?

I’m not arguing that it’s not fun. It is. It’s the most fun I’ve ever had watching a movie that completely destroys the ones that came before it.

 

[Sassafras]

I'm thinking that your perfect end to TROS would have gone something like this:

Rey and Palpatine are shooting Force energy at one another, neither giving ground to the other.

Suddenly a flurry of blaster fire guns them both down and each lies lifeless on the ground. Camera pans to show Mando dueling wielding two smoking blasters. He turns and leaves, teenage Yoda sits on the throne, end credits.

It would be elegant perfection and IN CHARACTER. When all hope has been lost and destroyed, crushed under the deviance of the success-maddened Lucas who couldn't leave well enough alone in 1999 - and disgorged films based on incomprehensible trade disputes, a questionable May/December romance, and an animated slurring Gumbie knockoff, to when, a savage and ruthless predator arrived, seeking to feast and PROCREATE.

And so it was. Some clung to faith - under the Mouse Empire, many claim, there is peace, prosperity, trade and *energetic* fans. Why fight against it? Look at DC - there is nothing but chaos and death and howling laughter and uber CGI.

But the great Gawd Feige (whom even the Empire General Kennedy feared), directed his loyal lieutenant Favreau "I've had enough. Fix this mess before I get there, fast and clean. No more time travel, worm plotholes, and characters that show up for 5 minutes that we can't get toy licenses for.

U get that baby on the throne, any way u can, 'coz Disney stock isn't gonna crater on MY watch. Anyway, everyone luvs Boba and I can get at least 5 HT figs from this new guy, as well as the full size replica helmet."

 

[spindrift]

Tell me the scene of Luke raising his X wing to an astonished Rey with the swell of Williams' ESB music didn't create a lump in your throat.....superb

 

[Prime Clone]

Why was Rey astonished when she?d earlier Force-pulled an actually-taking-off transport ship?

On a separate note, why did Anakin tell Rey to rise when his own recently redeemed grandson was lying, still alive, in a pit nearby?

 

[spindrift]

Why was Rey astonished when she?d earlier Force-pulled an actually-taking-off transport ship?

On a separate note, why did Anakin tell Rey to rise when his own recently redeemed grandson was lying, still alive, in a pit nearby?

My take is she didn't know Luke had saved his fighter...

 

[Sassafras]

My take is she didn't know Luke had saved his fighter...

She did. TLJ has a shot of her looking into the water where it's clearly visible. Whether fighters can be sunk in water for that long - well, whatever. Maybe it's not like Earth water and electronics etc. don't get fried. Or maybe Luke fixes it as it floats up. Except wasn't Luke's door the door from the fighter and Chewie blew that off...

What am I thinking, Palps had all those ships under water - so yeah, that's canon in SW. I guess.

 

[TaliBane]

I agree with you & your friends. In ROTJ, Palpatine wasn't in the market for a new body, he was looking for a new apprentice/2nd in command. Darth was "more machine than man" at that point, so to Palps it was like shopping for the latest & greatest laptop. It wasn't until after he'd barely survived Darth's shaft toss that he required a new vessel for his spirit/consciousness to possess.

How do you know we ever met the real Palpatine?

See, I think I was more comfortable with the idea of ROTJ Palps being an actual old man with Sith powers, but because GL selected Palps as a significant "big bad" in SW in the PT (and making him this blend of human and ghoul,) I'm open to the idea he was/is something far more - a kind of "eternal evil."

That being said, the storyteller in me has a huge problem with an eternal evil choosing to take on the form of someone who LOOKS EXACTLY like eternal evil. Eternal evil hides behind many things - there's not a whole lot of hiding going on with a hunched, cackling old man with a butt crack for a forehead and yellow eyes. You know what I mean?

But this is a difficult one to discern for me because I have such a difficult time even engaging with the PT to understand what's going on in it (I'd compare watching the PT to a dentist appointment,) let alone trying to incorporate/percolate all of that Senator Palps/Siditious material from them.

To me this is no more dense or intellectual than having to theorize how John Connor can be conceived by a soldier in the future without there having first been an alternate John, or having to theorize how the heck Cap could have fused the timelines into one while somehow still coming up with an alternate and pristine shield. I personally am satisfied with my head canon for each but like TROS and even the OT I'm sure that I probably have put way more thought into it than the writers themselves (and I'm including James Cameron and GL in that group of writers) and I have no problem with that.

I dunno - time travel paradoxes, and the forgiveness of them, is part of movie fandom. Mostly, because setting those paradoxes aside unleashes fun and thrills. What we are talking about here is complex in a way that unleashes density and obscurity.

You're saying that the Connor paradoxes are hard to get your head around, but you CAN just take it at face value and have a good time. On the other hand, here clearly defined Palps details tie deeply into Rey's journey; you have to understand them somewhat fully to even understand what she has to go through - and "do."

See here you're applying the "group support" that Rey received to Palpatine (as the HR article erroneously IMO did as well.) I don't think that Palps would have gotten absorbed into an eternal conclave of Sith cheerleaders, it was just him calling the shots IMO. I don't think he heard any voices at all (in his head anyway), he only felt and used the power of previously murdered Sith. The counterpoint to Rey's supporters were actually the bleachers filled with living Sith Eternal Cultists in hoods that were surrounding them. So Palps' supporters were living in the flesh and physically present but were still a mere shadow of the spiritual support Rey was receiving.

So you think the Eyes Wide Shut entities in the bleachers are living people?

This points the way to my next question: what is Exogol? Is this a massive military+temple complex on a planet that was set up maybe 30-40 years ago? Like if we turned on all the lights and asked everyone to stop what they were doing, what would we see? People living in massive housing and building star destroyers, and a temple place with genetics scientists?

I love the corsucant temple/subterranean ROTJ conept art vibe, but I think a lot of people's pushback - beyond Palps himself - relates to the character and reality of exogol. Like if we did a timeline of ROTJ to TROS, what would we see on Exogol? What would Pryde (who is supposedly OT era) tell us about what he saw over that 35 years?

The sense is of a surprise attack - like an entity biding his time to unleash a massive military with new whiz-bang tech. Yet... why? The resistance is down to like a VW bus full of people (not including broom boys of course) at the end of TLJ and even in TROS doesn't seem like a massive force. So why didn't Palps just steam his armada out earlier? Like years and years ago.

(This "timing" thing gets into other issues we'll discuss later about why Palps wants his grandaughter's body to possess when (at least based on what were heard in the OT and saw in the PT) force sensitive bodies aren't exactly in shorty supply in the galaxy. Yeah, Rey leapt from his loins so maybe she's more special, but if he's an eternal Sith evil, then his power resides in his eternal spirit, not his DNA/offspring, right? )

The Exogol thing is this weird combo of tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands of Imperial military personnel - living in complete secrecy/seclusion - plus (tens of?) thousands of scientists who are both building never-before-seen cutting edge tech onto countless thousands of SDs, but are also genetically producing beings (with blurred lines between Sith cultism, spirit and DNA) while Exolgol also being this staggeringly massive religious/Sith location where tens of thousands of Sith entities (are these people who traveled here, or spirits that possessed bodies to travel here?) reside and... well, not sure what they do week by week and month by month.

Then there's this "on no map" thing - why? Is it like Event Horizon where it's kinda hell in space? The whole sequence is unclear what the red/lightning space is they travel through, and whether Exogol is a planet or something more abstract - like an evil cloud city or something (you see SDs rising up from mud/water though, so I assume that's a physical planet surface)

So in short, it's like the Pentagon, Cape Canavarel, a small city (for living of perhaps 100k+ people,) the CDC/NIH, a Branch Davidian compound and Mayan temple city all in the same location? But oh, you also need to go through a Stargate portal to get there (I think...) Exogol's like TROS Palps - animal, vegetable, mineral - take your pick depending on what issue you're refuting.

This one can go a couple ways. For one there have always been inconsistencies with how good Jedi "live on" after death. Vader obviously didn't disappear when he died in front of Luke but still appeared as a ghost at the end of ROTJ. Qui Gon also didn't disappear but apparently was able to do the same. The Annotated ROTJ screenplay says that Ben and Yoda were able to step in and "save" Anakin's spirit from becoming one with the Force, so maybe that's what they did for all the previously dead Jedi too. Obviously the films alone aren't 100% clear on how that works.

I promptly deleted your midiclorians bit.

Well, you're arguing about inconsistencies re whether a force ghost is generated or not upon death, but what I'm saying is that for the most part, Jedis just die. Here they seem able to speak to her from beyond the grave regardless of learned force ghost ability or not.

I honestly am really enjoying the multiple theories of Palps' lifespan, Clown Prince's thought that we finally met the "original" Palps, the true "phantom menace" and that Eps I-VI Palps was always a clone is just brilliant IMO. I probably lean toward there has been one Palps tricking his apprentices into "murdering" him and thus giving him their souls for generations or even millennia on end and that PT and OT and TROS Palps are all the same guy but I'm totally fine with that one being left to endless speculation.

It's one thing to speculate on Palps origins and backstory, but it's another thing altogether to have NO CLUE as to whether he's animal, vegetable or mineral. You know what I mean?

This seems to be one of those situations where you can argue he's kinda alive to take care of certain tricky questions, BUT to take care of other tricky questions, he also might be purely a "Sith spirit" - and yup, MAYBE he's the remnant of the living man we saw in ROTJ, BUT he also might be a clone. I'm just saying that this slippery slope is an issue - that the lazy side of screenwriting is a pathway to many outcomes some consider to be lame.

What I was saying is I can't even tell you if he's a "ghost/spirit" or a living person we met in the earlier movie. It seems that we are supposed to say "we don't know and that's kinda cool" but to me it just becomes story quicksand. If you say "Palps had a child and that child parented Rey" - and that happened within a normal human lifetime (ie Palps in TROS is of an age where he could indeed be Rey's granddad) then don't be saying "maybe he's a spirit, maybe he's a clone..." etc