Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[DiFabio]

That's what I think ANH and ESB were.

That's exactly what they were.

There is a reason why every Star Wars movie since then just apes off the first two.

 

[ajp4mgs]

That's exactly what they were.

There is a reason why every Star Wars movie since then just apes off the first two.

I don't think Disney SW will ever allow a genuine departure ever again. You'll never get something like Joker from WB. They won't risk it.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Until something makes a ton of money and they copy that style for the next Star Wars. Like adding Marvel sensibility to Star Wars, it will be another "trying to update for a new generation"...

 

[DiFabio]

I read this thing, might have been in this very thread, like what if Star Wars was this self contained cult classic that only did moderately well back in 1977 and didn't become this cultural phenomenon that has spawned all these sequels.

Honestly, I'd have preferred that. When it comes to Star Wars, there is just so much junk you have to sift through to get the good stuff. You break it down and only 1/3 of it is any good. I don't see how someone new to the game with this much media could even begin to like. Most of it is bad and just pure schlock, always having this feeling of wasted potential with it's ideas and themes.

 

[Khev]

My ideal Episode IX would end with Anakin, Luke, and Leia being the driving force behind whatever happened at the climax. Even though it may seem like I had some set story that I wanted to see play out, I purposely avoided doing that. I normally avoid it anyway, but particularly after seeing how crushed some fans got that their story expectations following TFA didn't manifest.

I'm not getting paid to write SW scripts, so please don't think that I'm suggesting that I would've been better able to construct a satisfying story that tied up the whole saga. But based on the fact that George Lucas always came back to how important it was that the Skywalker Saga was a family drama cast against the backdrop of epic space warfare, I'd end it with a real emphasis on the Skywalker family.

Kylo would have taken the FO to new heights of power. The Resistance would've been recruiting assistance, and Luke's inspiration would've been earning them that assistance. Rey and Kylo would battle (maybe more than once), but Kylo would ultimately prove more powerful. Knowing that she can't defeat him now that he isn't trying to keep her alive as his partner in ruling the galaxy, Rey could commune with Luke's spirit. It would be Luke, having learned from his experiences, who would help Rey subdue Kylo. And since I knew that Kylo would need to be redeemed (to satisfy Disney), it would be Anakin who would be brought in to show him that Vader's legacy is nothing to emulate. Rather, it's the difficult decision that Anakin made to turn away from the easier path that should be the Skywalker legacy.

We could go on and on about what all of the specific plot points would be, but I think the moralistic and thematic notes need to be the takeaway. The Skywalker Saga is about family and about having the fortitude to fight against your darker impulses that present you with the easier path to power. It's not about being great at things just because you were meant to be powerful. It's about earning what you get, and leaving things better for having made tough choices. It's about making mistakes, but learning from them so that you can raise kids to not make the same ones.

However the story needed to play out, those are the things I wanted. And I wanted ALL of the Skywalkers to be the heroes. Not a Palpatine. I've said for a long time now that to me, Rey was a catalyst for whatever needed to happen with Kylo/Ben. But the ultimate ending to the saga needed to be Skywalker driven.

Oh good I was hoping you'd post something more than a sentence or two. And don't worry about the disclaimer about not being a professional writer, I wasn't asking a loaded question nor was I wanting to know how you'd satisfy a global audience. I just wanted to hear what would have been satisfying for you and obviously whatever you say instantly becomes the "right" answer.

We could go on and on about what all of the specific plot points would be, but I think the moralistic and thematic notes need to be the takeaway. The Skywalker Saga is about family and about having the fortitude to fight against your darker impulses that present you with the easier path to power. It's not about being great at things just because you were meant to be powerful. It's about earning what you get, and leaving things better for having made tough choices. It's about making mistakes, but learning from them so that you can raise kids to not make the same ones.

This is fascinating to read because IMO literally everything you cite above was front and center on the big screen in TROS. The crux of your disdain seems to be 100% centered around your apparent perspective that "adopted family" cannot count as "family." And that since Rey wasn't a Skywalker by blood she can never be grafted into the Skywalker family nor can anyone guide her as if she were their daughter/niece/sister.

That's a pretty harsh way to view adopted or stepchildren (at least in the context of SW) wouldn't you say?

I'd almost be inclined to say it's as cynical as Palpatine himself thinking "ah all I need to assure my own victory is someone who shares my DNA, nothing more" when the Saga suggests that true family is more than that. You know the whole "he might be your father but I'm your dad" approach (or grandfather in TROS's case.)

I don't think that TROS undid Anakin's story at all. It's still his legacy and the tradition of SW is for one generation to directly assist the next, not for grandparents to step over their kids and guide *their* children. So Ben and Yoda guide Luke (not his blood family), and Luke and Leia guide Rey (not her blood family.) The first Jedi to ever use his power to keep the girl from dying is sure enough a direct descendant of Anakin himself.

Anyway, just radically different takeaways I guess but again I thank you for sharing yours.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Anakin through Ben keeps the girl from dying which is what he always wanted and finally manifested through his direct descendant.

Wait -- what? Explain this please.

 

[Khev]

Yeah you zeroed in on probably the worst worded sentence in my post, lol. I edited it but not soon enough obviously, lol. We've probably all watched that Today Show interview with Mark Hamill from 1983 where he said that George's idea for the ST way back then was for Episode VII to be released in 2011 with old Luke "passing down Excalibur" to the next generation.

So "passing the torch" or having one generation picking up where the other left off is an idea that goes way back so with that in mind I'm totally fine with Ben being the one to manifest a power that Anakin wished he himself could perform.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Oh, OK. I was thinking that was a pretty large paradigm shift -- the way it read to me I thought you meant that Anakin's true dreams were about saving Rey and he mixed it all up and thought he was dreaming about saving Padme

Now that would be quite a retcon.

 

[DiFabio]

Man, now Khev is a month away from accepting ROTS into his personal canon (which will be the official Disney canon), just like he did with TPM after Rogue One came out. Fell for the "Skywalker Saga" advertising, hook line and sinker.

Marathon all 11 movies on a live feed and make a thoughts retrospective video review about them, it is the only way.

 

[Khev]

Oh, OK. I was thinking that was a pretty large paradigm shift -- the way it read to me I thought you meant that Anakin's true dreams were about saving Rey and he mixed it all up and thought he was dreaming about saving Padme

Now that would be quite a retcon.

Yeah that would have been a pretty out there interpretation.

It should probably also be specified that I too don't really care about "the prophecy of the Chosen One" that was made up by George 20 years after the OT and introduced through Jake Lloyd (lol) so if the Saga becomes a little less "Anakin's Story" at the end then that's no sweat off my back. I was always annoyed when George started pretending that Luke was never intended to be the main hero all along (when he and Kurtz had originally outlined Luke being the main guy in not one but *two* trilogies!)

Obviously after Kurtz left George changed that to the "handing off of Excalibur" thing and then again when he came up with Anakin as the Chose One. So with all the shifting sands I'm happy that the ST combines elements of both of those planned continuations.

 

[Khev]

Man, now Khev is a month away from accepting ROTS into his personal canon (which will be the official Disney canon), just like he did with TPM after Rogue One came out. Fell for the "Skywalker Saga" advertising, hook line and sinker.

Hey now I only accepted TPM as canon after Maul appeared in Solo, not RO. Get it right!

Marathon all 11 movies on a live feed and make a thoughts retrospective video review about them, it is the only way.

Good idea, I'll see if my tears can outdo that other guy's, lol.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The only real purpose to the Chosen One storyline is the irony that the villain of the OT actually is the one to bring back balance to the Force.

 

[DiFabio]

Hey now I only accepted TPM as canon after Maul appeared in Solo, not RO. Get it right!

Oh yeah, I honestly met Solo. My bad.

I get all these movies confused. I just watched the Force Awakens teaser. It was only 5 years ago. In that time we got 5 Star Wars flicks. Insane.

 

[JAWS]

It seems like every time an ST trilogy sequel comes out there is an undue love fest for it.

If this had a 4th entry, I bet a clearer view would prevail in the rear-view mirror. Sometimes it feels like people are talking themselves into something being much greater than it is. Its been going on since ROTJ.

Not me... I hated TFA and TLJ

 

[ajp4mgs]

This is fascinating to read because IMO literally everything you cite above was front and center on the big screen in TROS. The crux of your disdain seems to be 100% centered around your apparent perspective that "adopted family" cannot count as "family." And that since Rey wasn't a Skywalker by blood she can never be grafted into the Skywalker family nor can anyone guide her as if she were their daughter/niece/sister.

That's a pretty harsh way to view adopted or stepchildren (at least in the context of SW) wouldn't you say?

I'd almost be inclined to say it's as cynical as Palpatine himself thinking "ah all I need to assure my own victory is someone who shares my DNA, nothing more" when the Saga suggests that true family is more than that. You know the whole "he might be your father but I'm your dad" approach (or grandfather in TROS's case.)

I don't think that TROS undid Anakin's story at all. It's still his legacy and the tradition of SW is for one generation to directly assist the next, not for grandparents to step over their kids and guide *their* children. So Ben and Yoda guide Luke (not his blood family), and Luke and Leia guide Rey (not her blood family.) The first Jedi to ever use his power to keep the girl from dying is sure enough a direct descendant of Anakin himself.

Anyway, just radically different takeaways I guess but again I thank you for sharing yours.

It sucks that you're reading my view that way. My take on it isn't a rebuke on adoption, or choosing your family, at all. My disdain for this Rey story in TROS (among *many* problems with the overall storytelling itself) is that the Skywalkers get turned into background characters. You don't see it that way, but I do; hence some of the disconnect between us on this. Even if you view it as the Skywalkers helping Rey through her journey, ultimately she's powered by way of being a Palpatine. Her instinctual Force lightning is all the proof you need that she is powerful by way of *her own* lineage. And she is presented as the one who does what the Skywalkers couldn't do. I'm fine with the Skywalkers taking her in as one of their own, but that doesn't mean that they need to have all of their earlier achievements invalidated.

Anakin couldn't heal his mom or resurrect Padme; Rey can do it! Luke couldn't pull his lightsaber to overcome Palpatine's Force lightning; Rey figured it out! Anakin couldn't kill Palpatine and end the Sith; Rey does!

If you're going to have ghost Luke be able to hold a lightsaber, how in the hell do you not have Luke holding his green saber, and Anakin getting back his blue one, at the end to help Rey? It wouldn't be insulting to the character of Rey not being able to take on SuperPalpatine by herself. If you want her to be part of the family, have her be *part* of the family triumph; not *ALL* of it.

Powering up Palpatine way more than he had been in the previous two trilogies just makes it all the more absurd that Rey would be expected to defeat him when the other Jedi had always failed against a less-powerful version. Why not have the Skywalkers get her back, support her literally, and end this by finishing it once and for all . . . together as family? And, no, not merely via disembodied voices.

If you're going to undo Anakin ending Palpatine and the Sith (which was a bad idea, imo), bring him and his family back to actually DO SOMETHING about righting that wrong. Rey could still be an adopted Skywalker, and be embraced by her new family, by having them come to get her back. She didn't have to be a Palpatine; she didn't have to be anyone. Having her reject the parents who died to preserve her doesn't even make sense.

This story could've been finished without undoing the PT and ROTJ. I understand that you don't think it did that, but I hope you can concede that there were alternative ways to conclude this without healing powers, resurrection powers, an undead Palpatine, a Sith that never ended, and Skywalker arcs being compromised. In retrospect this trilogy never should've happened, but if you're going to finish it out, at least do so in a more coherent way. And do so without tons of plot logic problems that make the screenplay and editing seem conducted by children. This saga deserved better, imo.

I appreciate the discussion, Khev. Nothing personal, just disagreeing about a movie.

 

[DiFabio]

Always hated the prophecy thing.

Making Vader "the chosen one" cheapens his character. But even then, that is nothing compared to the whole virgin birth thing by making Shimi, Mary and Anakin, Jesus. Then implying Palpatine created all this **** with his dark side powers is just stupid. I liked when things were simpler. Luke was just a farm boy that wanted to leave home and be a hero like his father. Obi-Wan was a war hero, Vader a fallen, corrupted hero. Palpatine was a corrupt bureaucrat. Simple.

Now we got stupid lineage bull ****. THE SKYWALKERS, THE PALPATINES. It's like a tv show.

Only thing worse than the chosen one prophecy is Rey (her entire being) and Palpatine somehow orchestrating all this BS for 3 generations.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Not me... I hated TFA and TLJ

But now you love them all... which is even stranger. That one late edition makes the bad ones good? Like there was some mystery piece to a puzzle that suddenly fell into place for you and TLJ at last makes sense?

 

[DiFabio]

That missing piece was Wedge.

All it took for JAWS to like the sequel trilogy is to have Wedge show up for a millisecond. That's it. He cried! He clapped!

If the Prequels had kid Wedge picking his nose on Utapau, JAWS would eat that **** up. Wedge: Special Edition updates when? ****, you liked Wedge in Star Wars, Empire and Jedi? Bro, we're gonna take the Carrie Fisher tech to take Wedge's "that got him" scene from Empire and digitally insert Wedge into all the key moments from TPM, AOTC, ROTS, Solo, RO, TFA, and TLJ.

When Obi-Wan slices Darth Maul in half?

"THAT GOT HIM"

When Krennic dies when the Death Star shoots him?

"THAT GOT HIM"

When the Shark pops out of the water and eats Quint?

"THAT GOT HIM"

 

[Sassafras]

I don't feel sorry for Abrams.

You could make a decent movie following TLJ without addressing it every 20 mins. Still can't believe that "Holdo Maneuver" line is in the movie or vats with cloned Snokes (all having the same scars). It's so in your face and silly. Really makes you feel like a committee was writing these things and not a screenwriter that actually liked Star Wars. Rule #1 for the sequel to TLJ should have been not even acknowledging TLJ and doing your own thing with what was left with the characters. There was plenty.

Coulda went all in and made Kylo Ren his own man as a full on villain, explored the Knights of Ren and explored the event and ramifications of Luke and his school, but nah, bring back Palpatine and Lando and Wedge and Wicket and Super Star Destroyers with Death Star Cannons attached to their frickin' heads. It's no different than Force Awakens or Last Jedi, just swap out the familiar icons....

I was telling my friends this, if we sat down and really thought about it, we could all write up a better Star Wars film than what they have given us these last couple of years.

IMO ur not being "old and cynical". IMO has been a problem with Abrams & co. from the start, and the difference in someone like even Zack Snyder. E.g. for me the lack of real commitment/love/immersion in the base material has been a problem from the beginning. Only reason I can think of that screenwriter Terrio didn't learn anything from his DC work.

IMO saw the same kind of thing with Captain Marvel directors, who to me in interviews come off like this is some sort of goof. VS. someone like Ryan Reynolds who fought for years to get Deadpool made; or Favreau who went into Mandalorian with ideas in hand.

And frankly IMO Abrams has a skill set for sure; but IMO it's a non-visionary safe skill set. Sometimes I wonder what a director like Coogler or the Russos would've done. Not a perfect film (I don't think BP was perfect at all) but maybe would have had the heart to make me care about what was going on in TROS. To be fair, I think the handling of the Princess was done with a delicate touch and respect, so kudos for that. But there was so much lame BS (like focusing on Chewies grief over-correcting) and nonsense like the fetch quest. Re-hash. I dunno, is Disney planning on selling those cones as night lights for kids?

It was *&^% writing and clearly wasn't handled the Russo style (for example), where a few people go into a room with character cards, and stay and TALK as to why this character is here, what is the point, if u write urself into a corner how do u get out, etc. Meanwhile fans who give a *&^% are outdoing themselves bandaging stuff (with some considerable skill, actually). Of course, Russos are comic lovers and it showed in their films.

In the end, I don't have a problem seeing TROS as the end result of a corporate product purchase with Kennedy butting in and also hiring a "safe" director. IMO is what it is. Doesn't change the genius of Lucas, for me. Hopefully Disney will back off and understand they've skated on SW good will but over the long term, they used up the slush fund. E.g., they're either gonna hafta get back to basics with good stories and compelling characters, or settle for the occasional bombastic Aquaman-type spectacle.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

This thread is going in a pointless circle.