Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Prime Clone]

No way. Say it isn't so. I loved Solo Lando. I want a Donald Glover spin of series.

He was mainly referring to the pansexuality - and references to human-cyborg relations.

 

[jye4ever]

Nah once you include ROTJ you open the door to a whole world of craziness, lol.

"ROTJ is a pathway to many sequels that some would consider to be unnatural..."

I think now that we have so many genuinely good (or at the very least entertaining) movies (plus Mando) the whole "what's canon/what isn't" is starting to mean less and less to me.

I'm starting to simply look at AOTC or TLJ as the "Karen Paige goes to upstate New York" episodes. Kind of annoying to watch but ultimately harmless to the greater series. Do we worry about "purging" the subpar Mandalorian episodes? Nah, we just see him traveling through the desert with a kid who can't act and then move on, lol.

Yeah screw it what the hell does Clown know about SW anyways i?m with you all the way lol

Hell I even enjoyed watching my new TLJ 3D disc a few nights ago I still find that movie oddly entertaining.

I?m perfectly ok with the ST.

It?s really the PT that stresses me out when I get the urge to watch them I start getting night sweats.


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[Prime Clone]

At least you still get the urge, even if some would consider it unnatural.

 

[Khev]

Yeah screw it what the hell does Clown know about SW anyways i?m with you all the way lol

Hell I even enjoyed watching my new TLJ 3D disc a few nights ago I still find that movie oddly entertaining.

I?m perfectly ok with the ST.

It?s really the PT that stresses me out when I get the urge to watch them I start getting night sweats.

Clown read your two replies and was all:

 

[ajp4mgs]

I watch TLJ again last night. I never took Kylo's comment as "the effort would kill you" to be confirmation that force projection is always lethal, but rather only the strongest force wielders can use it (which also limits it's in universe usage).

I'm also not convinced it was the projection that killed Luke. Yes he was visibly taxed from the effort, but in no way did he look like he was about to die. In fact he pulled himself up onto his rock and sat calmly in a meditative pose. The more I watch that scene and think back to Obiwan in ANH, the more I think they both chose to become one with the force and move to the next plain. Vader's sabre didn't cut Obiwan. He didn't get "struck down" (despite his taunt to Vader) and then fade to the force. We have seen many become one with the force after death. Their body dies and then shortly after it fades. Obiwan's body was gone in the same instant Vader would have hit it. Likewise Luke seemed fine and then, he made the choice and became one with the force.

Now I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm leaning more to it being a choice with the evidence on screen. After all, as obiwan says and I paraphrase and contextualise, as one with the force he will be more powerful than Vader could imagine. Of course that leads to the fair argument, if they are so powerful and can interact as shown, why don't they do more. To which I'll take a lead from the ascended in Stargate, once they reach that plain, they are opened up to so much more and as such choose to interfere only when absolutely required. As one with the force they can likely see all the outcomes so only need to nudge the living towards the outcome they desire.

Storytelling 101: Don't introduce a pertinent plot point without following up on it later.

If Kylo's dialogue was simply meant to convey that Rey wasn't capable of the mastery involved with Force projection, he just would've said something along the lines of, "you couldn't possibly be capable of this." Or something to that effect. Saying that "the effort would kill you" is much more specific, and has story intent of foreshadowing written all over it, IMO.

The fact that you're interpreting it the way you are is exactly what Rian Johnson aims for, though. He always leaves key moments in the climax of his movies somewhat ambiguous for that very purpose; he wants you to take away something from it that is most satisfying to you. He does it in every one of his films, and always avoids directly answering questions that would erase the ambiguity (even in his director's commentary tracks).

But with TLJ, he actually let a little more out of the bag with Luke's death scene in one interview than he normally would. He actually said that, "the act of what he does at the end literally just takes everything out of him." He went on to try to sprinkle in more ambiguous language after that, but the phrase "literally just takes everything out of him" is one that seals the deal for me. I can't prove his intent, or even know that I'm interpreting it correctly, but I'm just giving you some context about some of why I have this particular point of view on the Force projection stuff.

And for me, Luke climbing back onto the rock to surrender himself to the Force is something that had to happen for the sake of optics. The symbolism is much stronger with the binary suns and a satisfied smile than if he just died in a heap, face-down at the edge of a cliff.

 

[The Buffinator]

Kylo began to piece together what was going on as the movie progressed. In one of their later "Force bond" conversations, Kylo asked, "Why is the Force connecting us?" He knew it wasn't projection, but he knew it involved the Force, and he was invested in trying to figure out the specifics.

One of my favorite aspects to how Kylo behaved during his Force bond scenes was how different it was than Rey's behavior. Kylo was deeply curious. He asked her things like, "can you see my surroundings? I can't see yours." Rey, on the other hand, couldn't seem to give a crap about the logistics. The Force was new to her, and everything probably seemed equally possible as impossible. She was just raw emotion, rather than contemplative and studious.

Kylo was a long-time student of the Force. He knew what the rules were. This Force bond thing was something new that he wanted answers to. I found that juxtaposition a fascinating little wrinkle in the whole thing.

But, I think it was purposely intended for the audience to understand at the end of the movie that Kylo and Rey were not projecting themselves. Their minds were linked through the Force via their unique bond, but no one else could see them. Luke's projection on Crait was entirely different. And his Force projection being something rarely ever used by Jedi makes sense since it has to cost them their lives. How many situations would be worth dying over just to perform that illusion?

Epic post is epic.

Great read.

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Agreed!

I also really enjoyed the juxtaposition of their reactions and that it was something that JJ built on with TROS. Like all Snoke wanted to do was connect their minds but he did it so often that Kylo was able to connect dots that Snoke didn't even know he was capable of. Like the water drops (which I personally really like.) Since Snoke (or Palps if you will) wasn't anticipating the bond between Ben and Rey to be so strong (that he would later exploit at the end of TROS) he didn't realize that connecting their minds would give them significant access to each other, and new powers that even he didn't anticipate.

In other words he connected their minds but the bond became so instantly interwoven that Ben (who was more attuned to the logistics of the experience as you mentioned) was able to take it a step further and actually connect not just with Rey but her surroundings (the water.) Then later Rey herself with the fingers touching.

Ben held onto that knowledge for the years separating TLJ and TROS and assumedly taught himself how to become more proficient with it, hence him being able to voluntarily snatch Rey's necklace. She then realized that if he could take her necklace then he could also take her weapon so she connected with him mentally on Exegol and offered up the lightsaber so that he could use the power (that she had yet to learn herself) to take it from her hand.

That's one of the things that impresses me so much about TROS. It wasn't a wholesale rejection or reboot of TLJ, instead it merely retconned the majority of the junk while building on the good stuff.

Love the discussions and theories.

At any rate, TROS has managed the impossible: I'm finding new respect for some of TLJ. Not enough to make me want to watch it again, but I can see more clearly the good bits in it. And all of this despite (or maybe because?) of TROS' bad bits...

This. RJ has been the object of ridicule/derision for much of TLJ (IMO some warranted, some not), but when I read thoughtful discussions such as these, it reminds me not to judge things too quickly. When I view some of his choices in conjunction with TROS, I really think he deserves credit for forcing JJ and others out of their collective comfort zones. Instead of playing it safe and following the OT blueprint like he did for TFA, JJ had to expand on the concepts that RJ introduced, and in so doing gave us new Force powers that provided different story ideas & possibilities. Maybe that flies in the face of what many consider SW "canon", but if the SW universe is going to survive/thrive under Disney I think its canon will need to evolve along with everything else. The irony is we demand fresh stories/ideas but are the first ones to criticize them if they're not what we are expecting.

 

[jye4ever]

Agreed!





This. RJ has been the object of ridicule/derision for much of TLJ (IMO some warranted, some not), but when I read thoughtful discussions such as these, it reminds me not to judge things too quickly. When I view some of his choices in conjunction with TROS, I really think he deserves credit for forcing JJ and others out of their collective comfort zones. Instead of playing it safe and following the OT blueprint like he did for TFA, JJ had to expand on the concepts that RJ introduced, and in so doing gave us new Force powers that provided different story ideas & possibilities. Maybe that flies in the face of what many consider SW "canon", but if the SW universe is going to survive/thrive under Disney I think its canon will need to evolve along with everything else. The irony is we demand fresh stories/ideas but are the first ones to criticize them if they're not what we are expecting.

RJ is hands down a better writer and director than JJ but his social etiquette is trash.

That being said nothing can save that Canto casino scene or broom boy scene and a few other character mistreatments and that?s all on RJ.

I?m actually shocked that JJ stuck the landing though. Leia, Han, Kylo and Rey arcs were stellar in TROS as was the main saber battle.

I wonder if they do a ST Disney + show will we see that DJ character again because poof he was gone lol


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[dan350zr]

I honestly don't see what Rian Johnson added to the Skywalker story with his TLJ movie other than to make ridiculous force powers and make Luke into some idiot hermit. He added zilch and made a mockery of the Skywlaker story...

I think Rian Johnson would have done better off with his own Star Wars story that he could have created from scratch instead of trying to continue an existing story...

 

[Wor-Gar]

Well I watched TLJ for my 2nd time ever...

First, it wasn't as bad as I remember. BUT... it has basically a terrible story with competing ideals that make it a real head-scratcher:

This movie's moral center can't seem to choose between: "burn it all down" or "save what you love". I see this as very problematic (and subjective) if you take it to its logical conclusion like Padme would.

The other competing ideal is this strange anti-hero (gunslinger cowboy toxic male) subtext in a 'heroic gunslinger adventure movie'. Very strange. RJ attacks Poe for his 'charging into battle' guns blazing, then he visually worships Luke as he marches into battle lightsaber blazing. Leia slaps Poe for charging in, and a moment later tells him its OK when he asks if he can go 'charging in' again to defend the fleet. Every time RJ makes a point, he undermines it with the opposite point of view in some way. And not once -- many times. I think that's where a lot of the frustration with this movie comes.

Its a movie that tries to have it both ways -- a very conservative adventure hero story struggling to also be a wiser and more liberal cautionary tale about that very thing. Its truly bizarre.

I mean, the only thing I can peg is that the DJ character is Rian -- and his belief seems to be: both sides are wrong, everyone's corrupt.



All that said, TLJ has not risen up in my rankings or been somehow absolved of its problems and made better by TROS. It remains at the bottom with AOTC for me. Not sure which is better but I'm not going to sit thru AOTC to find out...

 

[Boba Ben]

I was thinking about the force projection thing the other day while I was driving around. If Kylo knew that technique would kill the force user, wouldn't it stand to reason that Luke would know that about it as well? That being said, Luke's actions in The Last Jedi would have amounted to a force version of jumping on a live grenade to saver everybody when The Last Jedi initially came out. Definitely not the way I would have liked to see things go, but there is certainly heroism to that kind of sacrifice.

I think that's why I have such a problem with the functional x-wing being lifted out of the water in The Rise of Skywalker. As I mentioned above, I didn't love the force projection death for Luke in the first place, so I may be biased, but the fact that he did that instead of physically getting involved in some way, which is shown to have been possible with the x-wing being given to Rey, makes it look more like he killed himself on purpose rather than it being the only option left to him to help. I know that the scenario with him standing in front of the gorilla AT-ATs would have probably been unwinnable, but he could have gone to help Rey on Snoke's ship or shown some crazy force mastery on Crait that would see him rejoin the rebellion and live on into the third film, rejuvenated and reunited with his sister, ready to make up for his mistakes and face his fears.

I know it can be cheesy to bring back characters after they've been killed, but I really think Luke should have played a bigger role in the final Skywalker film. He's the heart of Star Wars, in my opinion. I think it would have made a lot of fans happy and it seems more plausible than a legless Emperor Palpatine coming back on a giant crane arm.

From a symbolic perspective, it would've been nice to see Luke and Rey work together to rebuild the new Jedi order going forward. Original fans represented by Luke and the new generation of young fans represented by Rey, both important parts of the Star Wars fandom and necessary components to what has made Star Wars so special throughout the years and what will keep Star Wars alive going forward. Then, they could've make whatever stories they wanted throughout the Star Wars Universe and if they wanted to revisit Rey, Finn, and Poe that could be done too with force ghost Luke or a small cameo with him alive, it wouldn't really matter at that point. It just felt like this series was dead set on getting rid of the old characters and giving their possessions and accomplishments over to these new characters. I also think Rey adopting the Skywalker name would've made more sense if her adopted parent was still alive to build some kind of meaningful relationship with.

 

[Wor-Gar]

View attachment 474458

 

[xipotec]

BS

In the dialogue right before this he specifically mentions training Jedi for 800 years and how he had a council.

this one, a long time have I watched, all his life, as he looked away, to the future, the horizon

Could mean any one of his students in those 800 years, from Obi-Wan to Anakin himself. Before TLJ, you would never interrupt that he was watching Luke grow up. It was always meant to be interrupted as a student Yoda had that Luke relates to. Yoda even looks up to Ben as he says this and Ben is constantly reminding Yoda that he was once like Luke as well as a green, impatient youth.

And if I'm wrong and Yoda was somehow keeping tabs on him, then I'd chalk that up as is using foresight and sensing Luke's feelings in that moment, reading his heart and mind. In Empire Yoda IS watching him for a awhile before revealing himself. Luke tells him so much while in the guise of a crazy old creature. To think he projected himself at Lars Homestead and studied Luke is just absurd, and missing the point of the scene entirely. TLJ and ROS are a farce when it comes to time and space.

Lets not twist and warp the OT to fit the horrible sequels. I don't want Disney getting ideas of going back and tinkering with them even further after the damage sustained by the PT.

WHaT?!?? You must be joking.

Its totally obvious, even way back when it was released that Yoda was somehow watching Luke....

He says ?THIS ONE?....looks at Luke ?A long time I have watched?

He literally pokes him with his cane when he says, ?never HIS mind on ....? poke poke ?where HE was? poke poke? what HE was doing.....?

He end by saying to Luke ? YOU are
Reckless?

It is made abundantly clear Yoda has been watching Luke on Tatooine , and his lack of focus on his chores and his general attitude since then.

I cannot see how anyone could interpret that scene any other way....


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[The Buffinator]

RJ is hands down a better writer and director than JJ but his social etiquette is trash.

That being said nothing can save that Canto casino scene or broom boy scene and a few other character mistreatments and that?s all on RJ.

I?m actually shocked that JJ stuck the landing though. Leia, Han, Kylo and Rey arcs were stellar in TROS as was the main saber battle.

I wonder if they do a ST Disney + show will we see that DJ character again because poof he was gone lol


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Oh, no argument there. But it's like Khev said, JJ was able to look at TLJ and separate the wheat from the chaff. Fortunately RJ gave him a few decent building blocks with which to work, thereby allowing him to conveniently forget broom boy, treat Rose as the secondary, supporting character she was, etc., etc..

 

[Wor-Gar]

Broom boy remains the most curious ending to a Star Wars movie ever. It is so out of sync structurally with these movies.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Obi Wan wasted 20 years of his life in Tatooine since Yoda was keeping an eye on him from a swamp. The Jedi are truly lying pieces of ****. I bet Yoda laughed when Vader took Luke's hand, "Hrrmmm. His hand there goes. Hehehe."

 

[Raiders March]

Agreed!





This. RJ has been the object of ridicule/derision for much of TLJ (IMO some warranted, some not), but when I read thoughtful discussions such as these, it reminds me not to judge things too quickly. When I view some of his choices in conjunction with TROS, I really think he deserves credit for forcing JJ and others out of their collective comfort zones. Instead of playing it safe and following the OT blueprint like he did for TFA, JJ had to expand on the concepts that RJ introduced, and in so doing gave us new Force powers that provided different story ideas & possibilities. Maybe that flies in the face of what many consider SW "canon", but if the SW universe is going to survive/thrive under Disney I think its canon will need to evolve along with everything else. The irony is we demand fresh stories/ideas but are the first ones to criticize them if they're not what we are expecting.

Excellent points, but we still got death star (destroyers). Guess he could'nt quite let it go...

 

[The Buffinator]

Excellent points, but we still got death star (destroyers). Guess he could'nt quite let it go...

Well, I said he introduced new Force powers - I didn't say he came up with a completely original plot. With JJ, we have to be content with baby steps.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Well, I said he introduced new Force powers - I didn't say he came up with a completely original plot.

New things can suck.

 

[dan350zr]

WHaT?!?? You must be joking.

Its totally obvious, even way back when it was released that Yoda was somehow watching Luke....

He says ?THIS ONE?....looks at Luke ?A long time I have watched?

He literally pokes him with his cane when he says, ?never HIS mind on ....? poke poke ?where HE was? poke poke? what HE was doing.....?

He end by saying to Luke ? YOU are
Reckless?

It is made abundantly clear Yoda has been watching Luke on Tatooine , and his lack of focus on his chores and his general attitude since then.

I cannot see how anyone could interpret that scene any other way....


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I always took it that he was watching Luke through visions... Similar to the visions Luke had about Han and Leia being in trouble... Yoda was a Jedi Master and he was like 800 years old, so it's not that hard to beleive that Yoda would meditate and see visions of Luke growing up on Tatooine...

Yoda "Through the force you can see the future the past... old friends long gone..."

 

[dan350zr]

Obi Wan wasted 20 years of his life in Tatooine since Yoda was keeping an eye on him from a swamp. The Jedi are truly lying pieces of ****. I bet Yoda laughed when Vader took Luke's hand, "Hrrmmm. His hand there goes. Hehehe."

Just because Yoda saw some visions of Luke growing up on Tatooine doesn't me Yoda could protect him, that was Obi-Wan's job... I imagine will see more of what Obi-Wan did on Tatooine in the new Obi-Wan series on Disney+ ...

As for Vader, remember Yoda warned Luke he wasn't ready to confront Vader...