Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Yeah if it weren't for Han and Luke the Force Dyad would have ended as an Ahch-To hermit and a DS II hermit, lol.

Speaking of Han how do you interpret his appearance?

It sounds like the JJ cut had him as nothing more than a fabricated Force Projection by Leia. I don't like that (and is another reason I'm fine with JJ's version staying buried forever.) If it's just Leia doing another puppet show then that's two straight films that Ben was manipulated by Force Projection.

I know that it goes against SW tradition of only Jedi appearing as ghosts but for me the Han scene only works if it *is really him.* Disney wisely insisted that it be open to interpretation because I take it as Leia using the Force to assist in bringing Han's spirit out of the netherworld so that the two of them could legitimately interact. That isn't totally without precedent either since it was decided by George and Kasdan that in ROTJ it was Ben and Yoda that were able to help Anakin become a ghost after he died (hence his body not disappearing.)

So I think that's what Leia did for Han. If it isn't him then it doesn't actually make up for his murder at all since the real Han would have still died tragically with no reconciliation whatsoever.

It wouldn?t make sense for Han Solo to appear as a Force ghost because he didn't use the Force and didn't have the proper training to return as a Force ghost after death. Additionally, the interaction the two have is nearly identical to the one presented in The Force Awakens. This gives the impression that Ben is remembering the moments before he killed his father, a memory that has haunted him ever since. Leia was not there for this conversation so its very unlikely she would have known what was said between them, so it couldn't possibly be a projection from her. I guess we can call it "a force memory projection" by Ben. Han even looks the same and has similar posture to the last time Ben saw him. It was Ben's way of coming to terms with his inner darkness and what he did to his father (he made the wrong choice), by asking Han for forgiveness and reciting the exact dialog on the bridge (I know what I need to do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it)- and making the correct choice this time- he is finally able to find inner peace within himself and thus end his torment (which really began at the end of TFA after he gutted Han)

Lastly, The fact that he's a memory projection by Ben is very important to Ben's arc. If it was Leia's force projection that helped Ben turn, it would have been a moment of divine intervention to bring him back to the light. The fact that the memory came from inside Ben means the entire dialogue with Han was internal and Kylo's redemption actually came from his own heart.

 

[chewblacca]

Did anyone else notice that Rey never force heals Poe after he gets shot in the arm? A snake sure, Kylo Ren ok, but her buddy Poe, forget about it!

 

[sithocan]

I think Han is Ben's imagination as for 1-he's not a jedi and not glowing, 2-both confesses that he's a memory.
For Rey's darkness, I don't think it's due to her lineage. Remember, you may be strong in the force but force is neutral. You choose to be good or bad. And Rey is just a human who can get angry and lose control, much like Luke in the throne room in the ROTJ. And I believe Luke was more trained in thinking as a Jedi.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Did anyone else notice that Rey never force heals Poe after he gets shot in the arm? A snake sure, Kylo Ren ok, but her buddy Poe, forget about it!

 

[JAWS]

Lol but you think the ST is better? Nothing but crap fan service, characters who don?t develop, bringing back dead characters to get nostalgic ass in seats.

PT is not fan Service?? Anakin made 3PO? R2 is a Naboo droid? Jabba the Hutt? Tarkin? Star Destroyer Cameos ?? Anakin is raised on the same planet as Luke?? Slave 1? Baby Boba Fett?

Listen I don't even hate the prequels... But man they are a mess of story telling, acting, and direction... Lots of good imagination though.. Its the one thing as a whole that the PT has over the ST.

Nah we gonna have to disagree on that one. All I saw was splashing water and two people swinging lightsabers like two crazy people. Looked bland and uninspired to me. A planet surrounded by literal fire just has more stakes and is more dramatic to me. Especially when the characters are on equal footing.

You must hate the saber duels in the OT then..

 

[JAWS]

Hmm

In other words she initially wasn?t thinking of saving Kylo it was all dark side anger and frustration BUT then immediately after the critical blow she thought of it as a way to finally save Ben.

That also works for me.

Look I?ll continue to defend this movie even though I didn?t like it because at least it allows me to make fun of ROTS lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah I think seeing him just all calm and dying snapped her out of her funk and she realized that she had done a terrible thing. So she healed him and then immediately flew off to Ach-To to forever prevent herself from ever making such a mistake again.

It's pretty cool how that duel effected them and how they each needed an OT character to guide them back into the fight.

I thought she was playing with the dark side also... But she felt Leia's presence also.... She may have actually been the final nail in her coffin since Leia died right when she ran Kylo through. She said Leia as soon as she died... There was something more going on then just seeing him all calm. IMO anyways.

 

[JAWS]

Yeah if it weren't for Han and Luke the Force Dyad would have ended as an Ahch-To hermit and a DS II hermit, lol.

Speaking of Han how do you interpret his appearance?

It sounds like the JJ cut had him as nothing more than a fabricated Force Projection by Leia. I don't like that (and is another reason I'm fine with JJ's version staying buried forever.) If it's just Leia doing another puppet show then that's two straight films that Ben was manipulated by Force Projection.

I know that it goes against SW tradition of only Jedi appearing as ghosts but for me the Han scene only works if it *is really him.* Disney wisely insisted that it be open to interpretation because I take it as Leia using the Force to assist in bringing Han's spirit out of the netherworld so that the two of them could legitimately interact. That isn't totally without precedent either since it was decided by George and Kasdan that in ROTJ it was Ben and Yoda that were able to help Anakin become a ghost after he died (hence his body not disappearing.)

So I think that's what Leia did for Han. If it isn't him then it doesn't actually make up for his murder at all since the real Han would have still died tragically with no reconciliation whatsoever.

Am I the only one who thinks they might have deaged Ford just a little for that scene.. I thought he looked better then he did in TFA.. Messy hair and all... I thought it was perhaps how Ben remembered his father so its why he looked a bit younger... That is if you go the "its all in his head" direction.

Or Maybe the Force is like the Grey Havens in LOTR and certain people are invited there

 

[Khev]

It wouldn?t make sense for Han Solo to appear as a Force ghost because he didn't use the Force and didn't have the proper training to return as a Force ghost after death.

Who says you need to have "proper training to return as a Force ghost?" Anakin obviously didn't. I understand wanting to just take Han's reply "your memory" at face value but the second he said that he clearly couldn't have been *just* a memory unless Ben actually remembered him saying "your memory" when he was alive, lol. Memories aren't interactive.

You can say "oh Ben just imagined him then" and that's fine but then Han no longer is what he said he was and if he isn't what he said (Ben's memory) then that means it could also be his real spirit.

"Luminous beings *are* we," Yoda said, not "a luminous being you will be one day if you study the Force and learn how to turn into one." Sure fans casually call them "Force ghosts" the same way we call toddler Yoda "Baby Yoda" but on official materials like toys and things they are most often referred to as simple "spirits," (Spirit of Obi-Wan, Anakin's Spirit, etc.) nothing more. And according to Yoda everyone has one. Even Han.

I wonder if the "training" simply gives a deceased person more control over their ability to interact with the living as opposed to determining whether they become a ghost at all. And if you don't have the training then someone who does has to bridge the gap (Ben and Yoda for Anakin, Leia for Han.) I've always thought that it seemed kind of lame that a guy like Anakin gets to live forever simply because he once trained as a Jedi while someone like Chewie or Padme who devoted the majority of their lives to helping others is just dead. Oh you're an evil murderer that took the right classes in school? Welcome to heaven. Oh you spent every waking moment making the galaxy a better place? Oblivion. Lol

 

[SvenDokki]

Did anyone else notice that Rey never force heals Poe after he gets shot in the arm? A snake sure, Kylo Ren ok, but her buddy Poe, forget about it!

Being a mass murdering baddie has its priviledges.

 

[jye4ever]

I thought she was playing with the dark side also... But she felt Leia's presence also.... She may have actually been the final nail in her coffin since Leia died right when she ran Kylo through. She said Leia as soon as she died... There was something more going on then just seeing him all calm. IMO anyways.

Great point!

Am I the only one who thinks they might have deaged Ford just a little for that scene.. I thought he looked better then he did in TFA.. Messy hair and all... I thought it was perhaps how Ben remembered his father so its why he looked a bit younger... That is if you go the "its all in his head" direction.

Or Maybe the Force is like the Grey Havens in LOTR and certain people are invited there

Yeah he looked slightly younger less wrinkly lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Khev]

Am I the only one who thinks they might have deaged Ford just a little for that scene.. I thought he looked better then he did in TFA.. Messy hair and all... I thought it was perhaps how Ben remembered his father so its why he looked a bit younger... That is if you go the "its all in his head" direction.

Or Maybe the Force is like the Grey Havens in LOTR and certain people are invited there

I think I prefer that particular "maybe."

And yeah Han's spirit makeover definitely looked cooler than Luke's, lol.

And great point about Rey saying Leia, I had forgotten that. So yeah I think she was all "crap I gave in to the Dark Side and Master Leia knows it."

 

[ironwez20]

PT is not fan Service?? Anakin made 3PO? R2 is a Naboo droid? Jabba the Hutt? Tarkin? Star Destroyer Cameos ?? Anakin is raised on the same planet as Luke?? Slave 1? Baby Boba Fett?

Listen I don't even hate the prequels... But man they are a mess of story telling, acting, and direction... Lots of good imagination though.. Its the one thing as a whole that the PT has over the ST.



You must hate the saber duels in the OT then..

Yes but the PT didn?t rely on nostalgia to get butts in seats. It told its own story without relying on what cane before. Yea they are horrible story telling wise especially AOTc but rots as a whole is just a better film. Flaws and all. Defending the ST is like defending a kid who keeps acting up at home even tho he should no better.

This thread is people bringing up the stupidity in some scenes and two or three guys defending how they make sense through the magic of retcon lol

 

[Khev]

 

[SvenDokki]

I thought Ford looked better too, so it wasn't just me.

Despite the movie's issues, I really liked that scene. It felt soothing after seeing him die in TFA. I know it's not logical or rational, the film really falls apart when you look at it rationally. Though Han being a ghost isn't really a big deal, compared to many other things, and it could be explained away as Leia giving Kylo a vision to manipulate him, or as her bridging the gap between the nether world and the living, or Kylo's psyche simply snapping and he's seeing what he needs to... or maybe a little bit of all the above.

 

[ironwez20]

I thought Ford looked better too, so it wasn't just me.

Despite the movie's issues, I really liked that scene. It felt soothing after seeing him die in TFA. I know it's not logical or rational, the film really falls apart when you look at it rationally. Though Han being a ghost isn't really a big deal, compared to many other things, and it could be explained away as Leia giving Kylo a vision to manipulate him, or as her bridging the gap between the nether world and the living, or Kylo's psyche simply snapping and he's seeing what he needs to... or maybe a little bit of all the above.

I felt that was kylos inner monologue and I liked the scene to

 

[Khev]

I thought Ford looked better too, so it wasn't just me.

Despite the movie's issues, I really liked that scene. It felt soothing after seeing him die in TFA. I know it's not logical or rational, the film really falls apart when you look at it rationally. Though Han being a ghost isn't really a big deal, compared to many other things, and it could be explained away as Leia giving Kylo a vision to manipulate him, or as her bridging the gap between the nether world and the living, or Kylo's psyche simply snapping and he's seeing what he needs to... or maybe a little bit of all the above.

See when you guys can acknowledge the good it actually gives much more validity to the criticisms you have over other parts of the film. Respect.

I felt that was kylos inner monologue and I liked the scene to

Okay okay I'll give you one of these too, lol:

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Who says you need to have "proper training to return as a Force ghost?" Anakin obviously didn't. I understand wanting to just take Han's reply "your memory" at face value but the second he said that he clearly couldn't have been *just* a memory unless Ben actually remembered him saying "your memory" when he was alive, lol. Memories aren't interactive.

You can say "oh Ben just imagined him then" and that's fine but then Han no longer is what he said he was and if he isn't what he said (Ben's memory) then that means it could also be his real spirit.

"Luminous beings *are* we," Yoda said, not "a luminous being you will be one day if you study the Force and learn how to turn into one." Sure fans casually call them "Force ghosts" the same way we call toddler Yoda "Baby Yoda" but on official materials like toys and things they are most often referred to as simple "spirits," (Spirit of Obi-Wan, Anakin's Spirit, etc.) nothing more. And according to Yoda everyone has one. Even Han.

I wonder if the "training" simply gives a deceased person more control over their ability to interact with the living as opposed to determining whether they become a ghost at all. And if you don't have the training then someone who does has to bridge the gap (Ben and Yoda for Anakin, Leia for Han.) I've always thought that it seemed kind of lame that a guy like Anakin gets to live forever simply because he once trained as a Jedi while someone like Chewie or Padme who devoted the majority of their lives to helping others is just dead. Oh you're an evil murderer that took the right classes in school? Welcome to heaven. Oh you spent every waking moment making the galaxy a better place? Oblivion. Lol

The ghost **** makes no sense to be honest. Quigon, the one who supposedly trained yoda to do it, never showed up as a force ghost, only as a voice in the movies although (he did appear as a ghost in clone wars. Yet His body didnt disappear (become one with the cosmic force) at death. Then you have anakin return to the light for that split second before he died, he also didnt receive training and his body didnt disappear at death yet he still became a force ghost. Kanan was killed in star war rebels his body was blown up (so we dont know if it disappeared in pieces) but he was able to commune via voice (like quigon) and wolf, but did not assume a ghostly form. Mace windu who knows if he disappeared when he hit the ground all we know is he never appeared as a ghost, but he could commune via voice having never been trained to do so. Obi wan disappeared right when the death blow was delivered and became a ghost. Luke (assuming he was trained (just faded away on a rock but became a ghost. Yoda was the same he died, body became one with the cosmic force and vanished he was also a force ghost. Then there was Leia, assuming she was taught by luke, when she died her body remained for a bit then once her son died she vanished and was able to assume ghost form. Ben solo just disappeared on death but no force ghost. There is no ryme or reason to any of this **** except all are force sensitve in some way other than Han. Han is not and never was force sensitve so i cannot see how that could be him as a force ghost.

 

[Khev]

The ghost **** makes no sense to be honest.

Bingo, lol.

Han is not and never was force sensitve so i cannot see how that could be him as a force ghost.

And yet there he was.

He was a "believer" at least.

In all seriousness just go with your gut since the scene allows you to take it however you want. If it makes you feel any better the supposed leaks of the JJ cut say that Abrams intended him to be a deliberate projection created by Leia (that was pretending to be Ben's memory I guess.)

I prefer Disney's "okay JJ let's not get carried away with the specifics" approach, lol.

 

[Sachiel]

It wouldn't make sense for Han Solo to appear as a Force ghost because he didn't use the Force

Spoiler

 

[Khev]

Ha ha, nice one Sachiel, lol.