Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

Or it could be a murderer imagining his victim forgiving him.

He knew that his dad forgave him. In TFA Han put his hand on Ben's cheek *after* he was stabbed.

I'm on the "memory" camp. I don't think Han was ever there.

Yes that's the common consensus. However more fuel for the "Han's spirit" interpretation is provided in TLJ with Luke saying "If you strike me down in anger, I'll always be with you, just like your father." That very much paralleled Ben Kenobi's last words to Vader, who *did* become a ghost.

"No one's ever really gone" also indicates that Luke might have learned that Yoda's "luminous beings" speech really did apply to everyone.

Again, take whichever interpretation that makes the most sense to you but it is more food for thought.

 

[e30ernest]

However more fuel for the "Han's spirit" interpretation is provided in TLJ with Luke saying "If you strike me down in anger, I'll always be with you, just like your father."

At the time, I thought of Luke pointing out the guilt Kylo felt for killing his father (hence he's always thinking of him). He was also implying that if Kylo kills Luke, Luke will also be an object of his guilt. I think Luke knows this because he senses there is still some good in Ben, and that while he is trying to be a Sith, he's heavily conflicted.

 

[Khev]

At the time, I thought of Luke pointing out the guilt Kylo felt for killing his father (hence he's always thinking of him). He was also implying that if Kylo kills Luke, Luke will also be an object of his guilt. I think Luke knows this because he senses there is still some good in Ben, and that while he is trying to be a Sith, he's heavily conflicted.

Yep you can take it as Luke saying that Ben will be haunted by guilt or that whenever he murders someone he simply frees their spirit. I just like things that can be taken either way like that.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Maybe in death Luke learned to do his force Skype gag in the form of other beings. In Disney Star Wars anything goes now...

Plus Luke obviously loves ****ing with Kylo. Now that Kylo is dead too Luke can pull the rug out from underneath him by telling him it wasn't really his dad(it was me pretending again)and therefore he wasn't redeemed[emoji38].

 

[Khev]

On the Force Spirit Jedi Council Luke has a dunce cap for Kylo like the one below but that says "Not Redeemed" lol.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

On the Force Spirit Jedi Council Luke has a dunce cap for Kylo like the one below but that says "Not Redeemed" lol.

perfect. Kylo just pouts in the corner with his hat on while Leia scolds Luke and demands he be nicer to Ben

 

[jye4ever]

Uhhh, Jye? ROTS was spoiled as far back as the 70s and 80s.

Everyone knew that Palpatine was going to become Emperor, all the Jedi were going to be purged and Anakin would become Vader.

True very true but that still doesn?t excuse ROTS trailer showing almost every major plot element in it.

You don?t worry about ROTS where the hell is your Mando review, I gots to know DiFabio lol

He knew that his dad forgave him. In TFA Han put his hand on Ben's cheek *after* he was stabbed.



Yes that's the common consensus. However more fuel for the "Han's spirit" interpretation is provided in TLJ with Luke saying "If you strike me down in anger, I'll always be with you, just like your father." That very much paralleled Ben Kenobi's last words to Vader, who *did* become a ghost.

"No one's ever really gone" also indicates that Luke might have learned that Yoda's "luminous beings" speech really did apply to everyone.

Again, take whichever interpretation that makes the most sense to you but it is more food for thought.

I think with Finn being an extension of broom boy one can then theorize that anyone working closely with the force users helping overcome the forces of evil like Han and others that they will also be somewhat embraced by the force themselves.

Bingo there is your Han ghost lol


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[chewblacca]

Question: did Rey really die after her fight with Palpatine? I say no. If she did die why didn't she join the force if she was every jedi? Leia didn't until her son went back to the good side. Rey had no such restrictions so shouldn't she of gone to the force like Yoda once she died? I think she was in a coma-like sleep till Kylo came and healed her.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Kylo reviving Rey with a kiss is the single most Disney thing ever. It's straight out of Snow White.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

All this expanded force nonsense has certainly cheapened the cool factor of it.

When Yoda lifted Luke's X Wing out of Dagobah swamp...awesome!

When Rey stops a spacecraft in midair and shoots it with a bolt of lightning...yeeeeeah ok whatever

It's not even the force anymore, it's just a ridiculous excuse to do anything you want.

 

[Khev]

I think with Finn being an extension of broom boy one can then theorize that anyone working closely with the force users helping overcome the forces of evil like Han and others that they will also be somewhat embraced by the force themselves.

Bingo there is your Han ghost lol

Yep plus I remember Yoda saying something in ROTS like "don't mourn for those who transform into the Force" in reference to Padme, an untrained non-Force user. "Transform into the Force." Well the Force can interact with Jedi and if a person transforms into an interactive spirit well.... I think that "anyone can be a ghost" is a welcome story evolution for me. It could easily be that since the dead are a part of the Force and Jedi commune with the Force it's just typically the Jedi who *see* ghosts, not that they're the only ones who *become* them. That's why Ben could see his dad.

He rejected his Dark path and opened himself up to the light side which opened him up to seeing his father (with his mother's help obviously.)

At least from my point of view.

 

[Khev]

Question: did Rey really die after her fight with Palpatine?

Most definitely.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Question: did Rey really die after her fight with Palpatine? I say no. If she did die why didn't she join the force if she was every jedi? Leia didn't until her son went back to the good side. Rey had no such restrictions so shouldn't she of gone to the force like Yoda once she died? I think she was in a coma-like sleep till Kylo came and healed her.

I think it's safe to say that Rey died because Finn (who is Force sensitive now) seemed to "feel" her death. She didn't disappear because disappearing isn't something that all Jedi do. Qui-Gon died in Obi-Wan's arms and didn't disappear. And plenty of Jedi died in Order 66 without disappearing.

The Jedi who disappeared are the ones who would've been privy to the Force ghost training (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke, Leia, & Ben). Ben's disappearance is fine because it's not too much of a stretch to believe that Luke would've taught his nephew about it.

If you don't like the idea of training to be a Force ghost (even though it's very much a part of Lucas canon), then just think of it as those who disappear are the Jedi who surrender themselves to the Force, rather than those Jedi who have their lives taken away.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Also, it seems to me that reviving people would be considered taboo for a jedi to do, similarly to how it was also "forbidden" for Superman to revive Lois in SM 1978. It's like going against the laws of nature. The kind of thing a Sith would do. It's unnatural.

When I was a kid before the prequels existed, I thought Palpatine was ugly because he abused his access to the force, so it turned him ugly on the outside. He and Vader used the force carelessly and in unnatural ways to choke people or shoot lightning. As opposed to the Jedi, who only used the force as a defensive tool or in life or death situations. I used to think of the force as a natural resource that certain people like the jedi can tap into or access, but have to be careful not to abuse it. That's why I thought when Luke was wearing black and choking the pigs he was starting to step into the "dark side." Oh well, I was wrong, Palpatine shot himself in the face.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

I think it's safe to say that Rey died because Finn (who is Force sensitive now) seemed to "feel" her death. She didn't disappear because disappearing isn't something that all Jedi do. Qui-Gon died in Obi-Wan's arms and didn't disappear. And plenty of Jedi died in Order 66 without disappearing.

The Jedi who disappeared are the ones who would've been privy to the Force ghost training (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke, Leia, & Ben). Ben's disappearance is fine because it's not too much of a stretch to believe that Luke would've taught his nephew about it.

If you don't like the idea of training to be a Force ghost (even though it's very much a part of Lucas canon), then just think of it as those who disappear are the Jedi who surrender themselves to the Force, rather than those Jedi who have their lives taken away.

Well...

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[Khev]

I think it's safe to say that Rey died because Finn (who is Force sensitive now) seemed to "feel" her death. She didn't disappear because disappearing isn't something that all Jedi do. Qui-Gon died in Obi-Wan's arms and didn't disappear. And plenty of Jedi died in Order 66 without disappearing.

The Jedi who disappeared are the ones who would've been privy to the Force ghost training (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke, Leia, & Ben). Ben's disappearance is fine because it's not too much of a stretch to believe that Luke would've taught his nephew about it.

If you don't like the idea of training to be a Force ghost (even though it's very much a part of Lucas canon), then just think of it as those who disappear are the Jedi who surrender themselves to the Force, rather than those Jedi who have their lives taken away.

Good post. However I disagree that it was canon that you must train to be a Force ghost. Because going all the way back to 1983 ROTJ showed us that someone (Anakin) can indeed become a Force ghost without training and without having their body disappear.

What I think now is that what training does is determine how much control you have *as* a ghost with regard to interacting with the physical world. If you're not a Jedi or were a Jedi who didn't study that particular discipline then you just go to "Force heaven" (or hell, or wherever) when you die to live as a spirit for eternity with no contact or possibly even recollection of the physical world. Unless someone with the appropriate abilities helps you retain a link with the physical world, which Ben and Yoda did for Anakin and Leia could have done for Han.

So when Rey died it was just as a normal person would, oblivious to any skills that would allow her to disappear and then willfully interact with the living as a ghost. Ben Solo, like you said, would have been privy to those extra teachings and therefore disappeared when he did. I *do* think that it's a Light Side power and that if you forsake a link to that side of the Force then you won't disappear, ie if he had died as murderous Kylo in say TFA then that particular ability would have been forfeit.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Also, it seems to me that reviving people would be considered taboo for a jedi to do, similarly to how it was also "forbidden" for Superman to revive Lois in SM 1978. It's like going against the laws of nature. The kind of thing a Sith would do. It's unnatural.

When I was a kid before the prequels existed, I thought Palpatine was ugly because he abused his access to the force, so it turned him ugly on the outside. He and Vader used the force carelessly and in unnatural ways to choke people or shoot lightning. As opposed to the Jedi, who only used the force as a defensive tool or in life or death situations. I used to think of the force as a natural resource that certain people like the jedi can tap into or access, but have to be careful not to abuse it. That's why I thought when Luke was wearing black and choking the pigs he was starting to step into the "dark side." Oh well, I was wrong, Palpatine shot himself in the face.

Throw everything out the window when it involves Rey. It's been obvious for a long time on screen that she could never be beaten and simply could not die, even if killed. They sacrificed the only somewhat interesting new character they created just to bring her back with a kiss, Disney style.

Off screen they even fired a director to protect her.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Throw everything out the window when it involves Rey. It's been obvious for a long time on screen that she could never be beaten and simply could not die, even if killed. They sacrificed the only somewhat interesting new character they created just to bring her back with a kiss, Disney style.

Off screen they even fired a director to protect her.

I'm scared. Can anyone stop Rey?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Well...

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Yeah, the Anakin ghost requires that awkward explanation from back in the day that Kenobi and Yoda managed to save/guide Anakin's spirit. Anakin getting to be a happy ghost is always going to be a weird one that'll be hard for me to accept for lots of reasons.

Good post. However I disagree that it was canon that you must train to be a Force ghost. Because going all the way back to 1983 ROTJ showed us that someone (Anakin) can indeed become a Force ghost without training and without having their body disappear.

What I think now is that what training does is determine how much control you have *as* a ghost with regard to interacting with the physical world. If you're not a Jedi or were a Jedi who didn't study that particular discipline then you just go to "Force heaven" (or hell, or wherever) when you die to live as a spirit for eternity with no contact or possibly even recollection of the physical world. Unless someone with the appropriate abilities helps you retain a link with the physical world, which Ben and Yoda did for Anakin and Leia could have done for Han.

So when Rey died it was just as a normal person would, oblivious to any skills that would allow her to disappear and then willfully interact with the living as a ghost. Ben Solo, like you said, would have been privy to those extra teachings and therefore disappeared when he did. I *do* think that it's a Light Side power and that if you forsake a link to that side of the Force then you won't disappear, ie if he had died as murderous Kylo in say TFA then that particular ability would have been forfeit.

If you want, I can track down definitive proof for you that the Force ghost training has very much been canon since Lucas specified it in the PT era. Dave Filoni has spoken very specifically about the training aspect to become a Force ghost. He got it directly from George's notes and conversations with him, and he used that in the animated shows.

But, whatever you want to consider your own canon is certainly fair. And even within accepted canon, there's plenty of room for subjective interpretation that can make things more aligned with our own preferences. I'm sure we've all had to rely on that at one point or another as this Force stuff has gotten more and more convoluted over the years.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

I'm scared. Can anyone stop Rey?

Only Baby Yoda has a chance. That would sell a lot of merch.