Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[jye4ever]

While I really enjoyed seeing Palps back on the screen in TROS, and quite liked some of what they did overall, it did feel a bit desperate. The ST strip-mined the OT for every drip of story, character, designs/visuals and nostalgia they could, and TROS felt like a mad scramble to scrape up whatever was left over.

But yeah, I'm really on the fence on what is worse - the PT with its god-awful performances/dialog, often bad FX, and shockingly stupid major decisions yet... with a pretty bold story universe and freshness to the worlds, designs and story intent, or the ST with its shameless theft from the OT and shockingly lazy, inane and unoriginal story (I lost count of the number of beat-for-beat OT scene/sequence/visuals rip-offs) and characters yet... with decent performances, incredible FX, coherent/clear story and the fantasy of the OT continuing with OT actors.

I still think TFA did so well because people simply couldn't believe they were watching a SW movie that felt like the OT, had decent performances and a story they could understand. Like a palette cleanser from the PT. Even if, as time has passed, TFA has emerged as a pretty meh movie that has zero mythic power, cultural relevance or deep haunting resonance like so much of the OT had.

To me, the end of the ST has made one thing clear - there is the OT, and then there is everything else. Like 9.5/10 vs 5/10. RO and Mando have demonstrated that worthy follow-ups to the OT are possible, but importantly, not in a "A-story" sense. Little to no Skywalkers, force and Jedi/lightsabers. Like RO and Mando, "in the shadows of the OT" seems to be the best way to go for new SW - BTTF2 type stories where the OT is just about to occur, is occurring, or has just occurred - offscreen or "around the corner."

Supposedly epic lightsaber battles in Mando S2 lol


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[jye4ever]

I'm not aiming this just at you personally, JAWS, but I've grown to ****ing hate this contention. If TLJ was so blatantly SJW, I assure you that I wouldn't be defending it at every turn. And at first, I bought into this notion that there was a purposely strong SJW agenda in the film - and it was making me dislike it more and more in those first few weeks. But then I actually started using my brain.

What exactly was so blatantly SJW about TLJ? Was it "girl-power" Rey . . . who was actually being humbled and/or defeated at every turn? She was sent to retrieve Luke; and failed. She went to turn Kylo good; and failed. She tried assaulting Snoke; and not only failed, but was being tossed around like some kid trying to take a fight to a grown-ass man. Then was saved . . . by a dude. Oh, but she did lift some rocks after that.

Was it the alleged "toxic masculinity" that was supposedly preached against in the Poe arc? The arc that ended with Leia saying, "What are you looking at *me* for? Follow *him.*" The movie where Leia scolded him for not being strategically wise, while people forget that she encouraged him to "blow something up" right after that. The same guy who led a ski-speeder assault at the end of the movie, but learned to recognize when you've got no chance to accomplish anything you should save your resources and manpower for the next battle. That's not a screed against toxic masculinity; that's a screed against stupidity. "Fight smart" and "be a better leader" were the true messages there, as I see it.

Was it Rose and her "anti capitalism" from her Canto Bight speeches? The speeches preaching against *war* profiteering? Last time I checked, capitalists don't exactly think war profiteering is a virtue either. We believe in free enterprise, not in arming militaristic dictatorships (which is what the FO was striving to be). Her backstory was that her homeworld was suppressed by the FO, their resources were stripped, and their people used for forced labor. In my book, that's called building up the villain; by humanizing the victims of the villain's actions.

Was it Rose's stance against animal cruelty? As a non-SJW, I didn't know I was supposed to be in favor of animal cruelty. Pretty sure many of my fellow conservatives were okay with Michael Vick getting punished for his dog fighting ring. And I suppose RJ had Luke sustain himself through fishing to show how evil killing fish is. Yeah right, lmao.

I've even seen people accuse the film of promoting some sort of SJW pacifism. Completely ignoring Luke at the end saying that "the Rebellion is reborn today" and that "the war is just beginning." The one true selfless hero of the film (and throughout the OT) was a man standing there championing a war that was going to be fought to take down despotism. Call me crazy but that's something (as a conservative and anti-SJW, btw) that I expect from SW heroes and the films' thematic takeaways. And I got exactly that, along with plenty of other themes and characterizations that have firmly been a part of SW since 1977.

Sorry about the long rant, but this line of bull (at least as I see it, obviously) just gets more and more annoying to me. There's tons of obvious SJW nonsense in all sorts of films nowadays, so singling out TLJ as some sort of "agenda" film amidst all of those others really confuses the **** out of me.

But now the discussion can get back to pages and pages of PT vs. ST squabbling. I just needed to vent that because I think things are easy to find, even when they're not actually intended, if you just expect (or insist) to find them.

Khev: We?ll take him together...

JAWS: I?M TAKING HIM NOW!

Khev: JAWS NO! (different than Kal-El NO!)

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[TaliBane]

Supposedly epic lightsaber battles in Mando S2 lol


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Well we've already seen a lightsaber in S1 but what I mean is no Jedi/lightsabers and no force.

Like imagine if a few lightsabers happened to show up on the Mos Eisley black market and were sold to a few cantina badasses, some of whom got pretty good at using them. That "down and dirty" approach (which seems to be the Mando way) to me is far cooler than yet another couple of force users, one on the light and one on the dark sides.

I'd love to see one of Mando's tough-guy new buds take on some Greedo badass gangster boss in a lightsaber battle and have it be brutal but skilled. They are just weapons - why do you have to be a Jedi or force user to use them very well?

 

[Khev]

Khev: We'll take him together...

JAWS: I'M TAKING HIM NOW!

Khev: JAWS NO! (different than Kal-El NO!)

 

[Khev]

It's funny cause all the shows that reference the PT or started during the PT are either poorly received or canceled.

See you get it now.

All this arguing about ST vs PT is kinda funny...

I don't think we're arguing. ironwez has said many times that he knows ROTS is terrible so he and I pretty much agree and TheDucky thinks the most important aspect of a film is how many toys it sells which is why his favorite movies are AOTC, Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. To each his own.

Both are pretty bad overall.

Let's not get carried away. I think we can all agree that Rey holding up the dagger to find the Wayfinder is a perfect example of the kind of "pure cinema" that Scorsese found to be lacking in the MCU, lol.

 

[Khev]

The problem is TLJ was SJW garbage and nobody wanted a Solo movie.. KK screwed the pooch... There is too much competition today to not give the fans what they want.

Yeah such a double whammy there with KK/RJ shoehorning so much divisive agenda into a film that was immediately preceding a movie whose premise was already a tough sell. Solo didn't stand a chance.

The good thing about TLJ's shortcomings though is that they were *salvageable* shortcomings. So much so that now after TROS they almost feel like necessary shortcomings, or at the very worst harmless experiments/diversions that are now easily forgiven. Now I can just watch that movie and enjoy the awesome visuals, solid performances, and tight pacing with a few standout moments that are truly great (Snoke's throne room, Luke and Yoda) while not getting worked up about the rest.

 

[e30ernest]

I'm not aiming this just at you personally, JAWS, but I've grown to ****ing hate this contention. If TLJ was so blatantly SJW, I assure you that I wouldn't be defending it at every turn. And at first, I bought into this notion that there was a purposely strong SJW agenda in the film - and it was making me dislike it more and more in those first few weeks. But then I actually started using my brain.

What exactly was so blatantly SJW about TLJ? Was it "girl-power" Rey . . . who was actually being humbled and/or defeated at every turn? She was sent to retrieve Luke; and failed. She went to turn Kylo good; and failed. She tried assaulting Snoke; and not only failed, but was being tossed around like some kid trying to take a fight to a grown-ass man. Then was saved . . . by a dude. Oh, but she did lift some rocks after that.

Was it the alleged "toxic masculinity" that was supposedly preached against in the Poe arc? The arc that ended with Leia saying, "What are you looking at *me* for? Follow *him.*" The movie where Leia scolded him for not being strategically wise, while people forget that she encouraged him to "blow something up" right after that. The same guy who led a ski-speeder assault at the end of the movie, but learned to recognize when you've got no chance to accomplish anything you should save your resources and manpower for the next battle. That's not a screed against toxic masculinity; that's a screed against stupidity. "Fight smart" and "be a better leader" were the true messages there, as I see it.

Was it Rose and her "anti capitalism" from her Canto Bight speeches? The speeches preaching against *war* profiteering? Last time I checked, capitalists don't exactly think war profiteering is a virtue either. We believe in free enterprise, not in arming militaristic dictatorships (which is what the FO was striving to be). Her backstory was that her homeworld was suppressed by the FO, their resources were stripped, and their people used for forced labor. In my book, that's called building up the villain; by humanizing the victims of the villain's actions.

Was it Rose's stance against animal cruelty? As a non-SJW, I didn't know I was supposed to be in favor of animal cruelty. Pretty sure many of my fellow conservatives were okay with Michael Vick getting punished for his dog fighting ring. And I suppose RJ had Luke sustain himself through fishing to show how evil killing fish is. Yeah right, lmao.

I've even seen people accuse the film of promoting some sort of SJW pacifism. Completely ignoring Luke at the end saying that "the Rebellion is reborn today" and that "the war is just beginning." The one true selfless hero of the film (and throughout the OT) was a man standing there championing a war that was going to be fought to take down despotism. Call me crazy but that's something (as a conservative and anti-SJW, btw) that I expect from SW heroes and the films' thematic takeaways. And I got exactly that, along with plenty of other themes and characterizations that have firmly been a part of SW since 1977.

Sorry about the long rant, but this line of bull (at least as I see it, obviously) just gets more and more annoying to me. There's tons of obvious SJW nonsense in all sorts of films nowadays, so singling out TLJ as some sort of "agenda" film amidst all of those others really confuses the **** out of me.

But now the discussion can get back to pages and pages of PT vs. ST squabbling. I just needed to vent that because I think things are easy to find, even when they're not actually intended, if you just expect (or insist) to find them.

I'm with you on this one. Personally, I think those themes in TLJ were severely misunderstood, stretched then vilified by a lot of SW fans.

 

[Khev]

I'm not aiming this just at you personally, JAWS, but I've grown to ****ing hate this contention. If TLJ was so blatantly SJW, I assure you that I wouldn't be defending it at every turn. And at first, I bought into this notion that there was a purposely strong SJW agenda in the film - and it was making me dislike it more and more in those first few weeks. But then I actually started using my brain.

What exactly was so blatantly SJW about TLJ? Was it "girl-power" Rey . . . who was actually being humbled and/or defeated at every turn? She was sent to retrieve Luke; and failed. She went to turn Kylo good; and failed. She tried assaulting Snoke; and not only failed, but was being tossed around like some kid trying to take a fight to a grown-ass man. Then was saved . . . by a dude. Oh, but she did lift some rocks after that.

Was it the alleged "toxic masculinity" that was supposedly preached against in the Poe arc? The arc that ended with Leia saying, "What are you looking at *me* for? Follow *him.*" The movie where Leia scolded him for not being strategically wise, while people forget that she encouraged him to "blow something up" right after that. The same guy who led a ski-speeder assault at the end of the movie, but learned to recognize when you've got no chance to accomplish anything you should save your resources and manpower for the next battle. That's not a screed against toxic masculinity; that's a screed against stupidity. "Fight smart" and "be a better leader" were the true messages there, as I see it.

Was it Rose and her "anti capitalism" from her Canto Bight speeches? The speeches preaching against *war* profiteering? Last time I checked, capitalists don't exactly think war profiteering is a virtue either. We believe in free enterprise, not in arming militaristic dictatorships (which is what the FO was striving to be). Her backstory was that her homeworld was suppressed by the FO, their resources were stripped, and their people used for forced labor. In my book, that's called building up the villain; by humanizing the victims of the villain's actions.

Was it Rose's stance against animal cruelty? As a non-SJW, I didn't know I was supposed to be in favor of animal cruelty. Pretty sure many of my fellow conservatives were okay with Michael Vick getting punished for his dog fighting ring. And I suppose RJ had Luke sustain himself through fishing to show how evil killing fish is. Yeah right, lmao.

I've even seen people accuse the film of promoting some sort of SJW pacifism. Completely ignoring Luke at the end saying that "the Rebellion is reborn today" and that "the war is just beginning." The one true selfless hero of the film (and throughout the OT) was a man standing there championing a war that was going to be fought to take down despotism. Call me crazy but that's something (as a conservative and anti-SJW, btw) that I expect from SW heroes and the films' thematic takeaways. And I got exactly that, along with plenty of other themes and characterizations that have firmly been a part of SW since 1977.

Sorry about the long rant, but this line of bull (at least as I see it, obviously) just gets more and more annoying to me. There's tons of obvious SJW nonsense in all sorts of films nowadays, so singling out TLJ as some sort of "agenda" film amidst all of those others really confuses the **** out of me.

But now the discussion can get back to pages and pages of PT vs. ST squabbling. I just needed to vent that because I think things are easy to find, even when they're not actually intended, if you just expect (or insist) to find them.

I actually quite like this post. I think you glossed over some things like Rose's disdain for animal cruelty but NOT for cruelty against human slaves (which can just be written off as her character being utterly wacko, lol) and Holdo never realizing how wrong and stupid she was to lecture Poe the way she did, utterly destroying his morale to the point that he literally mutinied while never learning the error of her ways and dying a "hero" while he who was clearly in the right against the Dreadnaught had to learn the big "lesson."

But eh, Rose, Holdo, Poe. No big and not dealbreakers by any means. The actors still played their parts very well and JJ put the first two in their place by sidelining the first and downplaying the heroism of the second, lol.

I went back and forth on how I felt about Luke's behavior and exile in TLJ but now I feel like it was a total homerun that does fit with the character as we knew him in the OT with the setup of an absolutely epic and satisfying payoff in TROS.

 

[a-dev]

Holdo never realizing how wrong and stupid she was to lecture Poe the way she did, utterly destroying his morale to the point that he literally mutinied while never learning the error of her ways and dying a "hero" while he who was clearly in the right against the Dreadnaught had to learn the big "lesson."

This reminds me of an episode of Friends that I hate. It was in season 3 I think where Ross is to be giving an important talk at some Paleontology thing and the whole episode is based on everyone getting ready to go. Ross is anxious about it and he wants to make sure they're there on time and everyone is taking the absolute piss - Joey and Chandler are acting like children trying to lay claim to a chair instead of getting ready whilst the girls are debating the inconsequential minutiae of their outfits or something - Ross is clearly stressed as ****, gets pissed off and abrupt with Rachel telling her to just bloody pick something. Anyway she takes umbrage and instead of picking a dress puts on her PJs and says she's not going. In the end Ross has to grovel and apologize to get her back on board.

Any time I've caught that particular episode on TV it has always infuriated me that it portrayed Ross as the ******* in that situation. NO. HE was in the right. Everyone else was being a twat!

 

[ajp4mgs]

I actually quite like this post. I think you glossed over some things like Rose's disdain for animal cruelty but NOT for cruelty against human slaves (which can just be written off as her character being utterly wacko, lol)

Well, there ya go. Rose's morals were inconsistent, and arguably flawed, but that's pretty much the extent of harm done. In other words, I don't see any socio-political agenda there other than simply portraying a character who maybe views the world differently than I (and many others) do. So what?

and Holdo never realizing how wrong and stupid she was to lecture Poe the way she did, utterly destroying his morale to the point that he literally mutinied while never learning the error of her ways and dying a "hero" while he who was clearly in the right against the Dreadnaught had to learn the big "lesson."

Okay, here's how I see Holdo's behavior. If you can spare the time, Khev, I'd really appreciate it if you can tell me where I'm going wrong. Holdo was put in charge because her friend and mentor (Leia) was nearly killed in an assault by a FO that had tracked them through hyperspace. That friend and mentor (and the general of their military) had just been disobeyed by Poe because he had a short-range focus on taking out an enemy asset. Taking out that asset cost the Resistance much of their fleet (which Poe wanted to prevent from being wiped out).

So: 1.) Holdo has no clue how the FO tracked the Resistance through hyperspace, and 2.) she knows that there's a former stormtrooper onboard, and his friend happens to be someone who just directly disobeyed general's orders at the cost of unnecessary (and heavy) casualties. Out of an abundance of caution, Holdo keeps her cards close to the vest as to what her plan was. And she scolds Poe for defying orders in order to establish how chain of command works, and how it needs to be acknowledged.

At the very least (and even if a mole/spy was not a concern), Holdo was risking Poe not liking her plan and just doing his own maverick thing yet again. And guess what? That's exactly what he ended up doing. Maybe the guy who is fight-first-and-ask-questions-later wouldn't have been persuaded that hiding out in a former Rebel base was the way to go. Plus, since when does a pilot (regardless of rank) get to insist on knowing the general's tactics and strategy? This is even a classic film trope: the commanding officer gives orders that a lower-ranking officer doesn't agree with, and he then defies orders with bravado.

Poe's declining morale is just as much on him not being a dutiful soldier as it is on Holdo for not doing more to keep morale from tanking. They both could've been better, but both ended up being heroes trying to do what they thought was best. Where am I going wrong?

I went back and forth on how I felt about Luke's behavior and exile in TLJ but now I feel like it was a total homerun that does fit with the character as we knew him in the OT

Something we agree on!

with the setup of an absolutely epic and satisfying payoff in TROS.

Oh.

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[ironwez20]

See you get it now.



I don't think we're arguing. ironwez has said many times that he knows ROTS is terrible so he and I pretty much agree and TheDucky thinks the most important aspect of a film is how many toys it sells which is why his favorite movies are AOTC, Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. To each his own.



Let's not get carried away. I think we can all agree that Rey holding up the dagger to find the Wayfinder is a perfect example of the kind of "pure cinema" that Scorsese found to be lacking in the MCU, lol.

Yup. ROTS is a bad movie with lots of flaws but damn does it have good moments and music and memories. Sure I understand why people could not like it. I think we all agree the PT isn't great and are bad but what we don't agree on is that PT is worse than ST. I feel like St is the worst and did the most damage to the brand then anything that ever came before. TLJ has gone down in history as the most hated star wars film ever.

 

[a-dev]

The PT has more artistic merit as a writer/director's singular vision and moreover from the creator of the franchise itself. Alas, he did it badly, very badly. Only TPM is watchable to me probably because of 1999 nostalgia. But they nevertheless have some relevance at least. For so long we knew the OT as Episodes IV, V and VI. We knew there was an intended backstory on the way at some point and we wanted it. But with the way ROTJ ended did we really want a sequel trilogy. We certainly didn't need it. But we got it and...

the ST was a product. Uninspired, repetitious and superfluous. For me it utterly failed to justify itself and is not canon whatsover.

I suppose it could be said I agree with Ironwez and Ducky - although I think they're doing more to keep this thread alive than they'll admit whilst claiming it's all Khev and Jye.

 

[ajp4mgs]

The PT has more artistic merit as a writer/director's singular vision and moreover from the creator of the franchise itself. Alas, he did it badly, very badly. Only TPM is watchable to me probably because of 1999 nostalgia. But they nevertheless have some relevance at least. For so long we knew the OT as Episodes IV, V and VI. We knew there was an intended backstory on the way at some point and we wanted it. But with the way ROTJ ended did we really want a sequel trilogy. We certainly didn't need it. But we got it and...

the ST was a product. Uninspired, repetitious and superfluous. For me it utterly failed to justify itself and is not canon whatsover.

I suppose it could be said I agree with Ironwez and Ducky - although I think they're doing more to keep this thread alive than they'll admit whilst claiming it's all Khev and Jye.

I find a lot of this uncomfortably true. For the last couple of years, I've been posting here about how we needed to have all three films in the ST before judging it and assessing whether or not a sequel trilogy was justified. For me, the resolution to the ST in TROS renders the entire trilogy virtually pointless. If they were going to defy GL's treatment/outline plot, at least have a trilogy with a cohesive story to justify having an epilogue to the OT.

And yeah, the execution of the PT was horrendous, but I will always regard it as true canon because GL did it the way he wanted. It's his world, and he just lets me peer into it. Can't say that about the ST, especially after re-framing the ROTJ ending far more than TFA or TLJ had.

But hey, a-dev, at least you were against the ST from the beginning. You were wise to suspect it would ultimately fail to justify its own existence.

 

[jye4ever]

meh...

If the PT rose from the ashes like a screaming phoenix so will the ST only difference the ST won?t need a fire creature to do so it will just climb up a few steps from the basement to the ground floor lol


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[a-dev]

I find a lot of this uncomfortably true. For the last couple of years, I've been posting here about how we needed to have all three films in the ST before judging it and assessing whether or not a sequel trilogy was justified. For me, the resolution to the ST in TROS renders the entire trilogy virtually pointless. If they were going to defy GL's treatment/outline plot, at least have a trilogy with a cohesive story to justify having an epilogue to the OT.

And yeah, the execution of the PT was horrendous, but I will always regard it as true canon because GL did it the way he wanted. It's his world, and he just lets me peer into it. Can't say that about the ST, especially after re-framing the ROTJ ending far more than TFA or TLJ had.

But hey, a-dev, at least you were against the ST from the beginning. You were wise to suspect it would ultimately fail to justify its own existence.

When the Disney acquisition and Episode VII was announced I was very excited. And I enjoyed the experience of TFA on first viewing in the cinema - probably gave it a few positive posts on here...apart from Han dying. I think I always hated that because I knew straight away what it had deprived us of. Heck I think I even enjoyed watching TLJ that first time but by TROS I was meh and that was exactly my response to the movie. I just cannot access whatever it was in that movie that salvaged the ST for Khev and JAWS. If the story and characters didn't engage someone in TFA or TLJ I don't know why they would in TROS. But no matter, to each their own.

So yeah, I was initially enthused at the prospect of a sequel trilogy. I was just wrong. TFA is a waste of time, bringing nothing new to the table and immediately establishing from the off that the galaxy has reverted back to where it was in ANH pretty much* - basically the same enemy and the same heroes doing all the same stuff we'd already seen - this starting premise sabotaged the rest of the trilogy by default and I came to the realization that Episodes 7, 8 and 9 were simply never needed in the first place. Return of the Jedi may not have been everyone's favourite movie but it was an acceptable story conclusion with more or less acceptable resolution of all characters.

Lucas had variously said that the Star Wars saga was about Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker - I know people have and will debate that - but in that context the ST just has no purpose or relevance by mere virtue of him not being in it anymore. He died in Episode VI


*and while I know you have rightly argued in the past that there's no reason why this couldn't plausibly happen there remains the question of 'yeah but should you go that way' with your piece of storytelling entertainment. Do people really wanna see that and in the broader scheme of the saga does it feel justified.

I keep going back to this basic reduction of the trilogies

PT: Fall of Republic/Jedi/Anakin - Rise of Empire/Sith/Vader
OT: Rebellion against the Empire/redemption of Anakin/Return of the Jedi and the Republic
ST: Nope, that last stuff didn't quite work, sorry, go again. Yep..yep.....now all is well

That's the summing up as far as I see it and the ST is clearly the odd one out. All it seems to do is disrupt the nice symmetry, Lucas's fabled poetry

 

[ironwez20]

Damn AJp summed it up prefectly. the ST. Nothing changed. We are back where we are with characters doing the same damn thing as before. I remember seeing the cool kylo ren lightsaber and thinking , damn this will be new but nothing new was brought to the table.

PT. flaws yes but brought new things to the table.

 

[ironwez20]

The PT has more artistic merit as a writer/director's singular vision and moreover from the creator of the franchise itself. Alas, he did it badly, very badly. Only TPM is watchable to me probably because of 1999 nostalgia. But they nevertheless have some relevance at least. For so long we knew the OT as Episodes IV, V and VI. We knew there was an intended backstory on the way at some point and we wanted it. But with the way ROTJ ended did we really want a sequel trilogy. We certainly didn't need it. But we got it and...

the ST was a product. Uninspired, repetitious and superfluous. For me it utterly failed to justify itself and is not canon whatsover.

I suppose it could be said I agree with Ironwez and Ducky - although I think they're doing more to keep this thread alive than they'll admit whilst claiming it's all Khev and Jye.

At this point it's all four of us keeping the thread alive. I mean everyone is on lockdown lol

 

[JAWS]

I'm not aiming this just at you personally, JAWS, but I've grown to ****ing hate this contention. If TLJ was so blatantly SJW, I assure you that I wouldn't be defending it at every turn. And at first, I bought into this notion that there was a purposely strong SJW agenda in the film - and it was making me dislike it more and more in those first few weeks. But then I actually started using my brain.

No Problem Ajp4mgs.. Perhaps I painted the film with a broad brush but I think you are being a tad kind.

It did not help that KK and RJ were claiming that it was just toxic SW fans that didn't like the film but sitting there in the theater on opening night I def felt I had some issues.

What exactly was so blatantly SJW about TLJ? Was it "girl-power" Rey . . . who was actually being humbled and/or defeated at every turn? She was sent to retrieve Luke; and failed. She went to turn Kylo good; and failed. She tried assaulting Snoke; and not only failed, but was being tossed around like some kid trying to take a fight to a grown-ass man. Then was saved . . . by a dude. Oh, but she did lift some rocks after that.

Her failures were never physical.... She was just so much more powerful then any Jedi we had ever seen.. It makes sense now but at he time it seemed more like a KK "The force is female" sort of thing.

Was it the alleged "toxic masculinity" that was supposedly preached against in the Poe arc? The arc that ended with Leia saying, "What are you looking at *me* for? Follow *him.*" The movie where Leia scolded him for not being strategically wise, while people forget that she encouraged him to "blow something up" right after that. The same guy who led a ski-speeder assault at the end of the movie, but learned to recognize when you've got no chance to accomplish anything you should save your resources and manpower for the next battle. That's not a screed against toxic masculinity; that's a screed against stupidity. "Fight smart" and "be a better leader" were the true messages there, as I see it.

Problem is Holdo and Leia were always wrong.. Holdo belittled him.. Leia yelled at him for not retreating when the outcome would have been just as bad had he turned around and tried to retreat with those slow ass bombers. Each and every time.. You know when Leia should have spoke up... When they had that Ski Speeder assault... I am still not sure what the plan was there... Poe fought smart in the beginning... Fought dumb at the end and only called off the assault because it was a terrible plan

Now this obviously this is just bad writing... But I again with KK running around with the "The Force is female" shirts one cant help but think there was some Toxic Male preaching go on there... After all he was only redeemed when he started listening to the woman Not that I have an issue with it.. It could again just be bad writing... But because of that bad writing it came across as an agenda.

THIS IS THE LEAST OF MY COMPLAINTS but I am going to through it out there as I believe it was part of KK and RJs agenda. Khev put up a photo one time where in one shot there were all this higher ranking females in one shot... Not a male among them... Again I don't have an issue with female authority... I really don't.. It was just a bit over the top... Funny how the First order was all white Males... With a female or two thrown in for good measure..

Was it Rose and her "anti capitalism" from her Canto Bight speeches? The speeches preaching against *war* profiteering? Last time I checked, capitalists don't exactly think war profiteering is a virtue either. We believe in free enterprise, not in arming militaristic dictatorships (which is what the FO was striving to be). Her backstory was that her homeworld was suppressed by the FO, their resources were stripped, and their people used for forced labor. In my book, that's called building up the villain; by humanizing the victims of the villain's actions.

It was the whole "its a terrible place with the worst people in the Galaxy" then pan to all the rich aliens gambling. We find out a little later how there are all rich but the message was there. True that nobody likes capitalizing over War... But the film did not hide its agenda by the way it portrayed the "Worst people in the Galaxy"

Was it Rose's stance against animal cruelty? As a non-SJW, I didn't know I was supposed to be in favor of animal cruelty. Pretty sure many of my fellow conservatives were okay with Michael Vick getting punished for his dog fighting ring. And I suppose RJ had Luke sustain himself through fishing to show how evil killing fish is. Yeah right, lmao.

Big difference between Horse Racing, fishing and Dog fights.. Lets not compare them like they are all the same... You may not like how horses are treated... I have no opinion on it... But it was more preaching for sure.

I've even seen people accuse the film of promoting some sort of SJW pacifism. Completely ignoring Luke at the end saying that "the Rebellion is reborn today" and that "the war is just beginning." The one true selfless hero of the film (and throughout the OT) was a man standing there championing a war that was going to be fought to take down despotism. Call me crazy but that's something (as a conservative and anti-SJW, btw) that I expect from SW heroes and the films' thematic takeaways. And I got exactly that, along with plenty of other themes and characterizations that have firmly been a part of SW since 1977.

I don't know about it being a pacifist film... But Rose's quote about how to win the War was stupid

Sorry about the long rant, but this line of bull (at least as I see it, obviously) just gets more and more annoying to me. There's tons of obvious SJW nonsense in all sorts of films nowadays, so singling out TLJ as some sort of "agenda" film amidst all of those others really confuses the **** out of me.

I don't like being preached at in any film unless its done well (rarely is)? I really don't want that crap in my SW movies..

 

[JAWS]

The PT has more artistic merit as a writer/director's singular vision and moreover from the creator of the franchise itself. Alas, he did it badly, very badly. Only TPM is watchable to me probably because of 1999 nostalgia. But they nevertheless have some relevance at least. For so long we knew the OT as Episodes IV, V and VI. We knew there was an intended backstory on the way at some point and we wanted it. But with the way ROTJ ended did we really want a sequel trilogy. We certainly didn't need it. But we got it and...

the ST was a product. Uninspired, repetitious and superfluous. For me it utterly failed to justify itself and is not canon whatsover.

I suppose it could be said I agree with Ironwez and Ducky - although I think they're doing more to keep this thread alive than they'll admit whilst claiming it's all Khev and Jye.

We pretty much agree on the PT and ST... Lack of Imagination is apparent in the ST... Lack of good filmmaking was in the PT.

 

[JAWS]

I don't think we're arguing. ironwez has said many times that he knows ROTS is terrible so he and I pretty much agree and TheDucky thinks the most important aspect of a film is how many toys it sells which is why his favorite movies are AOTC, Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. To each his own.

I am just trying to be the peacemaker

I find it funny cause we all know the PT is trash...

jK PT fans

Let's not get carried away. I think we can all agree that Rey holding up the dagger to find the Wayfinder is a perfect example of the kind of "pure cinema" that Scorsese found to be lacking in the MCU, lol.

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