Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[e30ernest]

I was going to reply to you TaliBane but Khev and JAWS summed up my thoughts on ROTJ and TLJ Luke. On both cases, we see Luke briefly losing himself and caving to the dark side.

There's this repeating theme in Star Wars where Jedi seem to be almost psychotic in teetering between good and evil.

Your attempts to connect the OT to the ST are almost as bad as George Lucas? attempts to connect the OT to the PT.

 

[DiFabio]

D you are not allowed to emasculate Khev over what you see as his gross audacity to connect TLJ with ESB by using Jake freaking Lloyd in your argument to hold up the PT since it was he that built 3PO.

Then to make matters worse you went and hypocritically evoked the meme name of Jake Skywalker as a thing Khev should be ashamed of when you yourself are embracing Jake Lloyd lol

Yes Luke looked like a butch B Arthur in 83 lol


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Stop being a little ***** and agree with me, you know I am right.

Join me and I will complete your training and we can end this destructive conflict.

 

[Khev]

And then his realization, when he looks at his hand, of the path he is about to go down if he goes through with it. That he will become Vader. Its then that he throws away his saber and tells the Emperor that he will never turn.

View attachment 482155

Yeah the realization that he was about to do something that would take him down the exact path as his father really says it all doesn't it.

D you are not allowed to emasculate Khev over what you see as his gross audacity to connect TLJ with ESB by using Jake freaking Lloyd in your argument to hold up the PT since it was he that built 3PO.

Then to make matters worse you went and hypocritically evoked the meme name of Jake Skywalker as a thing Khev should be ashamed of when you yourself are embracing Jake Lloyd lol

Yes Luke looked derpy with that hair lol

Dude tell me you've actually watched ROTJ 4K83, lol.

And speaking of ROTJ I love the scene where the Emperor sends Vader off to the command ship then turns to the two waiting dignitaries...as if he's about to receive an update on how his "contingency" on Exegol is proceeding.

 

[jye4ever]

Stop being a little ***** and agree with me, you know I am right.

Join me and I will complete your training and we can end this destructive conflict.

My friend, you know me to be neither rash nor impulsive. I'm not given to wild, unsupported statements. And I tell you that we MUST accept Khevs ST insight immediately!

DiFabio you are one of freaks greatest minds it?s not that I question your hate of the story group the facts are undeniable. It?s your PT conclusions we find unsupportable.

Yeah the realization that he was about to do something that would take him down the exact path as his father really says it all doesn't it.



Dude tell me you've actually watched ROTJ 4K83, lol.

And speaking of ROTJ I love the scene where the Emperor sends Vader off to the command ship then turns to the two waiting dignitaries...as if he's about to receive an update on how his "contingency" on Exegol is proceeding.

Now that i?m stuck at home the first thing we did was 4K 77/83 last friday evening.

My wife and son were in shock!

Hated it lol


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[Khev]

Now that i?m stuck at home the first thing we did was 4K 77/83 last friday evening.

Finally!

My wife and son were in shock!

Hated it lol

ROTJ is so freaking wacky and is every bit as bonkers as TROS in parts, lol. Like what the hell is with Leia undoing her hair and putting on some dress that she found at the ewok village right in the middle of a military mission that will determine the fate of the galaxy.

Imagine ALIENS if when they were fortifying Med Lab Ripley and Vasquez just come walking back into the room wearing some evening gowns they found in the colony and just carried on like that was totally normal.

 

[DiFabio]

My friend, you know me to be neither rash nor impulsive. I'm not given to wild, unsupported statements. And I tell you that we MUST accept Khevs ST insight immediately!

DiFabio you are one of freaks greatest minds it?s not that I question your hate of the story group the facts are undeniable. It?s your PT conclusions we find unsupportable.




Now that i?m stuck at home the first thing we did was 4K 77/83 last friday evening.

My wife and son were in shock!

Hated it lol


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You disgust me Jye, I condemn you. Forever shall you remained imprisoned.

 

[jye4ever]

Finally!



ROTJ is so freaking wacky and is every bit as bonkers as TROS in parts, lol. Like what the hell is with Leia undoing her hair and putting on some dress that she found at the ewok village right in the middle of a military mission that will determine the fate of the galaxy.

Imagine ALIENS if when they were fortifying Med Lab Ripley and Vasquez just come walking back into the room wearing some evening gowns they found in the colony and just carried on like that was totally normal.

Literally half of ROTJ is hard to sit thru and i?m complaining about TROS lol

I guess with Leia mom being the fashionista that she was it only made sense for Leia to wear clothing from CLEARLY what was a dress from a female that was eaten by those damn little cannibals!

Seriously wtf lol


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[jye4ever]

You disgust me Jye, I condemn you. Forever shall you remained imprisoned.


View attachment 482157

Ahhh hello mr potato head MR POTATO HEAD how long have I been team Khev now lol

HOLY CRAP IS THAT BRANDO!!

He literally has uncle fester head with homer simpson body!


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[Khev]

Literally half of ROTJ is hard to sit thru and i?m complaining about TROS lol

I guess with Leia mom being the fashionista that she was it only made sense for Leia to wear clothing from CLEARLY what was a dress from a female that was eaten by those damn little cannibals!

Seriously wtf lol

I know right, lol.

Or how about:

"I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

"Yoda spoke of another."

"The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

"But I have no sister."

"Mm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

"THEN WHY DID YOU LITERALLY JUST SAY THAT I WAS YOUR ONLY HOPE TWO ******ING SENTENCES AGO."

lol

 

[jye4ever]

I know right, lol.

Or how about:

"I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

"Yoda spoke of another."

"The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

"But I have no sister."

"Mm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

"THEN WHY DID YOU LITERALLY JUST SAY THAT I WAS YOUR ONLY HOPE TWO ******ING SENTENCES AGO."

lol

Unlike 89 Joker I am laughing on both the outside AND inside holy crap lol

Force ghost ObiWan was a hot mess lol


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[Khev]

So true.

 

[JAWS]

I know right, lol.

Or how about:

"I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

"Yoda spoke of another."

"The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

"But I have no sister."

"Mm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

"THEN WHY DID YOU LITERALLY JUST SAY THAT I WAS YOUR ONLY HOPE TWO ******ING SENTENCES AGO."

lol

There really are just two Great Star Wars movies.. All others you are way less then perfect.

ROTJ has some perfect moments though.

 

[punisher1974]

Finally!



ROTJ is so freaking wacky and is every bit as bonkers as TROS in parts, lol. Like what the hell is with Leia undoing her hair and putting on some dress that she found at the ewok village right in the middle of a military mission that will determine the fate of the galaxy.

Imagine ALIENS if when they were fortifying Med Lab Ripley and Vasquez just come walking back into the room wearing some evening gowns they found in the colony and just carried on like that was totally normal.

Leia banged the tribe of ewoks though. Wicket was just the pimp who gave her the dress.

 

[TaliBane]

I was going to reply to you TaliBane but Khev and JAWS summed up my thoughts on ROTJ and TLJ Luke. On both cases, we see Luke briefly losing himself and caving to the dark side.

There's this repeating theme in Star Wars where Jedi seem to be almost psychotic in teetering between good and evil.

But... what's the difference between someone triggers you so you fight harder/better for 60 SECONDS and "caving to the dark side"? One friggin minute, and yup - all LUKE does is dueling better/stronger... is that truly considered "losing himself to the darkside" to you guys? Seriously?

I thought it was massacring younglings by the dozen, or murdering your benevolent master or... shooting up Walmart or something? Maybe we have different thresholds for dark side.

JAWS just summarizes the same ol', same ol but again - if Luke has "caved to the dark side" then why didn't he kill Vader in the second or two after he chopped off his hand? This is a question no one goes near. I mean he's "caved to the dark side," right? Transformed, foaming at the mouth and murderous. But the second he defeats Vader... he just stops.

Khev says "Luke was all set to kill his dad until Palps' laughter snapped him out of his funk and he realized what he was about to do"

But if Luke was "all set to..." WHY DIDN'T HE? I mean before Palps' laughter, in the instant he's won the duel?

He's turned to the dark side, all yellow eyes-ish, he's disarmed/defeated Vader - so then why stop? At the time Palps starts cackling and walks down, shouldn't darkside consumed Luke be teeth-gritted and grinning, taunting Vader about how he's going to die now for everything he's done, saber-tip at Vader's face. Something more... darkside-y?

Nope. Just stops, returns to normal Luke within seconds. I mean a failure of filmmaking for sure, but Luke does not "lose himself to the dark side" nor is he "all set to kill his dad" but is then interrupted. That may be what you're supposed to take away from it, but that is NOT onscreen.

Based on Luke's exact dialogue in TLJ explaining to Rey his intentions and what happened as a result:

"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he would become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

Drivel. Flowery dialog that deliberately dances around the FACTS: (1) Luke thought he saw Ben's future (seeming to 100% contradict what Yoda told him - and US - about attempting to see the future through the force) and (2) then decided to kill Ben.

I mean what kind of bs writing is "for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it." Yup, I think what he meant to say is "I had some future visions and believed they were real, so I decided I'd go to Ben's hut in the middle of the night and kill him"

Am I wrong? If so, how?

And no he didn't bring his lightsaber into Ben's hut because he had murderous intent he simply brought his lightsaber because Jedi pretty much carry them wherever they go. That's not a new thing.

Yes, they take their saber with them when they go to take a crap, and also just so happened to have it when they visit their student's hut in the middle of the night with murderous intentions. Oh, Khev. This is the ST Koolaid I speak of.

 

[a-dev]

A damn fine post. You have a great knack for distilling things and getting to the true core of what really matters.

Thank you. That's a really nice way of framing what I consider to be my often disjointed, rambling 'summary' approach to discussion because I'm usually far too lazy to go into detail about anything

No matter when you officially distanced yourself from the ST having any possibility of being part of your personal SW canon, you definitely were way ahead of me with clearer vision and foresight.

I expected this trilogy to end with a coda that cemented the Skywalkers as being integral (across more than just one generation) in securing the ultimate prosperity that they fought and died for. I expected a worthwhile reason for Luke's exile and sacrifice; to use it as a way to connect Luke with his father so that they could work side by side to save their family and the galaxy.

In my mind, that would've been a worthy reason for extending the story beyond ROTJ. Instead, Luke was sidelined and Anakin was barely present as the Palpatine Saga concluded with Rey being the conquering hero. I really don't get it. And yes, irrespective of anyone else's opinions of ROTJ, I think messing with that ending to GL's saga would need a far better justification and outcome than what we got.

No one can call you a mindless hater or any of those other dismissive things. You tried, you really tried to embrace these films. In the end they lost you and I don't think anyone else has given more thoughtful reasoning - based purely on the stories and characters - as to why the ST didn't work. So, respect for that

I can respect that take as it was clearly the one that late 90's/early 2000's George wanted you to take (who knows how his own ST would have screwed up the "symmetry" as you see it and botched the Saga even further though.) But for me I'll never be able to see Star Wars as anything other than the "Tale of Two Georges." I could easily break it down into many more than just two Georges as he has proven by his perpetual revisions/disgust for all that he previously made but I'm fine with just seeing his Star Wars as "before and after 1997."

And yes the OT SE/PT George has been very emphatic that the entire Saga is supposed to be the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker (until he was going to throw that out with his own ST but again I digress, lol.) But I can't see that as anything other than *complete* BS. Out of the entire OT and PT we literally got two (two!) films where Anakin was actually the main character (AOTC and ROTS.) How the hell can it be his story? (Not directing the "hell" at you but rather George. )

The OT was built from the ground up to be the hero's journey of LUKE SKYWALKER. So any additions to that journey that don't include him are superfluous at best IMO as far as "the" Saga goes. Hey I'm fine with one-offs and anthologies especially if they're done well but that just makes the entire PT its own little compartmentalized "anthology trilogy" that as you know I personally dismiss and only revisit for nostalgia and to remind myself of just how good the OT and ST are, lol.

All those big things that George fabricated out of thin air decades after the original film ("poetry," the story of Anakin, etc.) I just discard with all the other post 1997 nu-Saga nonsense.

It's like George himself couldn't let go of the fact that he had once planned to do 7, 8 and 9 - similar to how we weren't going to let go of the fact that the OT had been called Episodes IV, V and VI and so there must be a I, II and III. George had originally wanted to do 7, 8 and 9 but got burnt out and decided to wrap things up in VI. Yet some nagging need must have remained in his head even after he'd later finished the prequels. Problem was, how was it going to be a truly organic continuation when the conclusion of ROTJ basically precluded his original sequel plan from being possible? Perhaps anything else he came up with would have felt as 'tacked-on' as the Disney ST feels to me. Something forced for the sake of it. And as you say it probably would have (further) undermined his contention that the saga was about Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.

I know you have found your own way to retrofit the existing ST to Lucas's original sequel plan. I just don't care enough to do that. I have perhaps chosen the quick and easy path of disregarding everything but the OT, Rogue One, Solo and Mandalorian S1. Like Talibane said the other day

RO and Mando have demonstrated that worthy follow-ups to the OT are possible, but importantly, not in a "A-story" sense. Little to no Skywalkers, force and Jedi/lightsabers. Like RO and Mando, "in the shadows of the OT" seems to be the best way to go for new SW - BTTF2 type stories where the OT is just about to occur, is occurring, or has just occurred - offscreen or "around the corner."

 

[e30ernest]

But... what's the difference between someone triggers you so you fight harder/better for 60 SECONDS and "caving to the dark side"? One friggin minute, and yup - all LUKE does is dueling better/stronger... is that truly considered "losing himself to the darkside" to you guys? Seriously?

Just because he's had a moment where he caved into the dark side doesn't mean he can snap out of it once he realizes where he's going to. In ROTJ he realizes it when he sees Vader's robotic hand and as Khev and JAWS mentioned, realizes he was on the same path to darkness.

On a lighter note:

 

[TheDucky]

Also given the fact that TROS closed the Saga with arguably the single most right wing Hollywood blockbuster in modern history I find it even easier to just shrug off TLJ's SJW elements. I mean think about it, Disney Corporation literally allowed the Star Wars saga to close with the bad guys being defeated by a suave businessman with a shady past who becomes commander-in-chief of a massive populist army of self armed individuals. Trump and the NRA to the rescue! While Rose/Hillary (who thinks the way to win is by being an idiot and she'll murder you if you disagree) was sent home without even a horse of her own, lol.

Now I don't think for one second that they pandered to conservatives deliberately, I think they just put their blind bias on pause for a second and actually unwittingly experienced an attack of common sense that allowed them temporarily realize that hmm maybe such ideals aren't so evil after all. Of course anti-SJW Fandom Menace YouTubers proved that they're just a bunch of blind idiots themselves who are too stupid to realize when they get what they actually want.

Just... what?

Not one single white guy survived TROS. They literally killed every white guy off Considering the right base is majority white and male, that fact right there kills all that.

A critical point...if it were correct. But if you revisit TLJ (I'll leave that one up to you, lol) Luke actually doesn't go to Ben's hut to kill him, only to definitively discern the level of darkness lurking in his nephew's soul. What he finds temporarily shocks him so profoundly that he grabs and ignites his saber out of instinct. Which actually is explained beautifully by the TROS reveal that it was Palpatine because he was the one person who witnessed firsthand Luke almost lose it with Vader when Vader threatened his sister. He obviously used and magnified that very threat by showing Luke (through Ben's tainted soul) the "death and destruction of all I held dear."

So again like Bilbo briefly lashing out at *his* nephew Luke made a similar "in the moment" error.

Wait, what? TROS really did that Eh, at least it tried to fix that garbage scene. More TLJ retconning though! Good.

Too me it was always obvious that he was just a step away from killing Vader. He was full of anger and hate when he attacked (John Williams Score drives that home) and the only reason he stops is that he looks at his hand.. He sees that he is about to follow down Vader's path. Vader's choices made him more machine then Human. It all harkens back to his Vison in Empire.

Now how you want to relate that to TLJ and killing his nephew is up to you... I did not see it as that crazy of an idea... As I have said.. Luke was far from perfect.​

Let's see... Vader who is an evil genocidal space nazi vs... his defenseless, sleeping, didn't do anything wrong nephew.

Oh yeah, totally the same.

On another note I'm binging the OT today while on lockdown and will follow with the ST.

Some interesting new connections I'm noticing.

3PO giving up after the Sandpeople attack and telling Luke to leave him and that he's done for to which Luke replies "No you're not what kind of talk is that" compared to Rey in TROS giving up and trying to burn the lightsaber and Luke saying "What are you doing?" Once again giving a "come on get it together" pep talk to a hopeless friend.

Also "I'm not afraid," "ah, you will be, you will be" has new connotations with regard to Luke confessing to Rey that fear drove him to exile. Almost like Yoda had foreseen Luke's entire journey as a Jedi up to and including his eventual death. Pretty cool.

That wasn't what he was referring to at all.

It has zero connotations. That fear Yoda was referring to was Luke?s friends dying and that Vader was his father bro, not the Sequel Trilogy. ESB has been around for 40 years. These crappy sequels were just made yesterday. That little puppet wasn?t thinking 40 years into the future.

Your attempts to connect the OT to the ST are almost as bad as George Lucas? attempts to connect the OT to the PT.

Atleast his attempts were filmed and not stretched out posts. I could buy Jake Lloyd building 3PO to help Mom because I actually saw him do it as opposed to your conjecture about Luke giving 3PO a pep talk like Jake Skywalker does for Rey or whatever nonsense you just posted.

You don?t understand Star Wars. You should sell your collection and shouldn?t be allowed to watch them anymore.

Using the PT to take down the ST, beautiful.

I know right, lol.

Or how about:

"I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

"Yoda spoke of another."

"The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

"But I have no sister."

"Mm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

"THEN WHY DID YOU LITERALLY JUST SAY THAT I WAS YOUR ONLY HOPE TWO ******ING SENTENCES AGO."

lol

That would be the best scene and dialogue in the entire ST.

What happened to not needing to know everything? It's just fantasy. Who cares why. It doesn't need to make any sense whatsoever, we already established this.

 

[TaliBane]

Just because he's had a moment where he caved into the dark side doesn't mean he can snap out of it once he realizes where he's going to. In ROTJ he realizes it when he sees Vader's robotic hand and as Khev and JAWS mentioned, realizes he was on the same path to darkness.

But you're avoiding the question - what to you defines "caved to the dark side"? Just fighting harder and better... for sixty seconds? And having the same raging expression that any boxer/athlete pushing their limit displays?

That's ALL Luke does.

And NO... he doesn't kill Vader, even when Vader's on the floor with one hand.



But nope, to you guys that's murder-on-his-mind Luke with a heapin' helping of that same ol' darkside...

 

[ironwez20]

Stop being a little ***** and agree with me, you know I am right.

Join me and I will complete your training and we can end this destructive conflict.

He can?t he?s obligated to love all things Disney wars. Khev must be some type of executive

 

[ironwez20]

We talking about ROTJ now? Don?t know why many dislike it. I?d take bears fighting an empire than space horses riding a space ship. Such a stupid scene .