Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[aussiebottt]

We talking about ROTJ now? Don?t know why many dislike it. I?d take bears fighting an empire than space horses riding a space ship. Such a stupid scene .

Speaking of stupid scenes I went to JB HiFi today and they were playing TROS. I got to see the Emperor death scene and space battle. That's some absurd and ridiculous plot lines happening. Say what you want about the PT having wooden acting or cheesy dialogue but at least it tells a cohesive story.

 

[e30ernest]

But you're avoiding the question - what to you defines "caved to the dark side"? Just fighting harder and better... for sixty seconds? And having the same raging expression that any boxer/athlete pushing their limit displays?

That's ALL Luke does.

And NO... he doesn't kill Vader, even when Vader's on the floor with one hand.



But nope, to you guys that's murder-on-his-mind Luke with a heapin' helping of that same ol' darkside...

Sorry, I thought it was clear. Luke gave in to fear and anger which are both from the Dark Side. His hate made him in the words of Palpatine himself, "powerful". See around the 2:00 part of the fight:



Also, IIRC, the 1983 novelization implies this, how his saber hits were fueled by hate. At the end of the fight, he realizes he was much becoming like Vader, so he stops. The novel also explicitly states that Luke wanted to destroy Vader as he lay down on the ground.

 

[ironwez20]

Speaking of stupid scenes I went to JB HiFi today and they were playing TROS. I got to see the Emperor death scene and space battle. That's some absurd and ridiculous plot lines happening. Say what you want about the PT having wooden acting or cheesy dialogue but at least it tells a cohesive story.

It?s evident that they scrapped palpatine from the bottom of the barrel just to have a big bad instead of coming up with any imagination. They had so many villains lined up but failed on all of them. Phasma was a complete joke

 

[aussiebottt]

It?s evident that they scrapped palpatine from the bottom of the barrel just to have a big bad instead of coming up with any imagination. They had so many villains lined up but failed on all of them. Phasma was a complete joke

Yep anybody who gets beaten by Finn is a joke. But at least Phasma did more on screen than Boba Fett...

And Palpatine's inclusion was so obviously just a last-minute desperation ploy because they had nowhere else to go.

 

[TaliBane]

Sorry, I thought it was clear. Luke gave in to fear and anger which are both from the Dark Side. His hate made him in the words of Palpatine himself, "powerful". See around the 2:00 part of the fight:

Also, IIRC, the 1983 novelization implies this, how his saber hits were fueled by hate. At the end of the fight, he realizes he was much becoming like Vader, so he stops. The novel also explicitly states that Luke wanted to destroy Vader as he lay down on the ground.

Novels don't count.

But you're not getting me - what did that "giving in to fear and anger" DO exactly in this situation in terms of us judging Luke harshly for his actions?

1. Make him duel stronger and better
2. For 60 seconds
3. NOTHING further

Luke doesn't go there with the intention to kill Vader, doesn't kill Vader even after majorly provoked, even with Vader defeated and disarmed - and not before, during or after Palps shows up to cajole him.

The point is... how the **** is this the same as Luke going to the hut of his youth student (Han and Leia's son no less) in the middle of the night to MURDER him but then having a change of heart?

Oh sorry, because Luke's bs deliberately flowery-evasive dialog has been raised, I must paraphrase it so we're accurate: "I thought I could stop....what he would become... for the briefest moment of pure instinct." (shown with footage of Luke sneaking into a sleeping Ben's hut in the middle of the night with saber IN-HAND and a threatening gaze.)

Yup, to cut through that utter garbage: Luke had a hunch, so went in to kill Ben, in the middle of the night and armed, but changed his mind at last minute. Just as I said originally.

And... sorry, that's not my Luke.

What blows me away is that we're discussing THE core issue many had with TLJ Luke, the core of the "Not my Luke" backlash and its one tepid, evasive, dismissive response after another.

 

[e30ernest]

Novels don't count.

Why wouldn't they when the original movie novels (PT + ST) are considered canon?

https://twitter.com/delreystarwars/status/461579307341840384

But you're not getting me - what did that "giving in to fear and anger" DO exactly in this situation in terms of us judging Luke harshly for his actions?

1. Make him duel stronger and better
2. For 60 seconds
3. NOTHING further

Luke doesn't go there with the intention to kill Vader, doesn't kill Vader even after majorly provoked, even with Vader defeated and disarmed - and not before, during or after Palps shows up to cajole him.

I think this is where the disconnect is. When Luke surrendered to Vader and the emperor, you are right, he didn't have the intention of killing Vader. He wanted to turn him to the light. However, as the fight progressed, he gave in more and more to the dark side. Eventually he did fight with the intent to kill. That intent was there all the way to the point he disarms (literally) Vader:

Remember Yoda's teachings? Where he says that you are in the good side when you are "calm and at peace"? He definitely wasn't calm or at peace there. Yoda also says a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack. What did Luke do there?

Now whether or not you count the novels, you can't deny the 1983 novel was taken from the original script. From the book:

Luke stared at his father?s twitching, severed, mechanical hand?and then at his own black-gloved artificial part?and realized suddenly just how much he?d become like his father. Like the man he hated.

Trembling, he stood above Vader, the point of his glowing blade at the Dark Lord?s throat. He wanted to destroy this thing of Darkness, this thing that was once his father, this thing that was ? him.

Suddenly the Emperor was there, looking on, chuckling with uncontrollable, pleased agitation. ?Good! Kill him! Your hate has made you powerful! Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father?s place at my side!?

Luke stared at his father beneath him, then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness?and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father, not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself.

Watch the clip above, it matches exactly what was written in the book. The book's publisher confirms that the books are canon where the films align. This definitely aligns IMO.

The point is... how the **** is this the same as Luke going to the hut of his youth student (Han and Leia's son no less) in the middle of the night to MURDER him but then having a change of heart?

Oh sorry, because Luke's bs deliberately flowery-evasive dialog has been raised, I must paraphrase it so we're accurate: "I thought I could stop....what he would become... for the briefest moment of pure instinct." (shown with footage of Luke sneaking into a sleeping Ben's hut in the middle of the night with saber IN-HAND and a threatening gaze.)

Yup, to cut through that utter garbage: Luke had a hunch, so went in to kill Ben, in the middle of the night and armed, but changed his mind at last minute. Just as I said originally.

This is technically incorrect. Luke did not go in there with his lightsaber in hand. He went in there with his lightsaber hanging on his belt, like almost every Jedi (remember how Jedi aren't supposed to simply leave their lightsabers around? )



There's the scene in question above. He goes in, inquisitive. He is trying to read his student. What he sees terrifies him to the point where he ignites his saber. Look at his face, that's fear in his eyes, not murderous intent. He never even tries to swing his saber. The only move he makes with his saber is to block Ben's attack.

And... sorry, that's not my Luke.

What blows me away is that we're discussing THE core issue many had with TLJ Luke, the core of the "Not my Luke" backlash and its one tepid, evasive, dismissive response after another.

That's the issue indeed on why TLJ was originally divisive. There's the camp that puts Luke as a paragon of the light and there are others (like me) who never saw Luke as the perfect hero.

 

[Bravomite]

This isn’t even the main problem with TLJ Luke... it’s that he gave up rather than try and right the wrong. He had no hope that Ben could be turned back and went away to die. Now that is something OT Luke would never have done.

 

[aussiebottt]

This isn’t even the main problem with TLJ Luke... it’s that he gave up rather than try and right the wrong. He had no hope that Ben could be turned back and went away to die. Now that is something OT Luke would never have done.

Epic post is epic

 

[JAWS]

But you're avoiding the question - what to you defines "caved to the dark side"? Just fighting harder and better... for sixty seconds? And having the same raging expression that any boxer/athlete pushing their limit displays?

That's ALL Luke does.

And NO... he doesn't kill Vader, even when Vader's on the floor with one hand.



But nope, to you guys that's murder-on-his-mind Luke with a heapin' helping of that same ol' darkside...

I would say the two gifs you posted are perfect examples of two characters you embraced the dark side. Luke was never wanted it.. But was tempted allowed himself to be taken by it at a moment of weakness.

"There is much anger in Him. Like his father" - The dark side is always a threat with Luke.. He is his fathers son.

There has to be a reason "story wise" that Yoda reminds Luke and the audience
"Beware the darkside, anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny"

Pretty much the same line he says in Empire. Seems like the writers wanted to get a point across. Why repeat this other then to warn the audience of the stakes in place. And if Luke does not go down the dark part for a little bit then where is the drama? Plus its a great way to show how great of a Jedi Luke is. To be tempted, fall into temptation, and then be able to pull himself out without it dominating his destiny.

 

[Khev]

You're a good guy TaliBane but man you've got the bad take to end all bad takes on this one, lol. I think this is a definite case of "quit while you're behind" and spare yourself further embarrassment. Who doesn't get that ROTJ Luke temporarily gave in to hatred and anger at the end?? I think even people who've never seen ROTJ understood that part better than you, lol.

Maybe it's just the lockdown getting to you. Now I'm picturing your wife stumbling on your writings and freaking out as she goes page by page reading nothing but "All Light Side and no Dark Side makes Luke a dull boy," lol.

 

[JAWS]

JAWS just summarizes the same ol', same ol but again - if Luke has "caved to the dark side" then why didn't he kill Vader in the second or two after he chopped off his hand? This is a question no one goes near. I mean he's "caved to the dark side," right? Transformed, foaming at the mouth and murderous. But the second he defeats Vader... he just stops.

For the record.. My original statement on this was before I read any of Khevs thoughts and we both came to the same conclusion...

Your theory is the first I ever heard of Luke not succumbing to the dark side at that moment.

 

[JAWS]

You're a good guy TaliBane but man you've got the bad take to end all bad takes on this one, lol. I think this is a definite case of "quit while you're behind" and spare yourself further embarrassment. Who doesn't get that ROTJ Luke temporarily gave in to hatred and anger at the end?? I think even people who've never seen ROTJ understood that part better than you, lol.

Maybe it's just the lockdown getting to you. Now I'm picturing your wife stumbling on your writings and freaking out as she goes page by page reading nothing but "All Light Side and no Dark Side makes Luke a dull boy," lol.

This is the 2nd weird theory about the OT that I have seen on this thread.. The other one being another members take on Luke in Empire... Which I don't remember I just recall it lead to both of us being accused of having bad taste in Star Wars movies

One great thing about the TROS. It has helped people understand the confusing twist and turns of the OT.

 

[JAWS]

Why wouldn't they when the original movie novels (PT + ST) are considered canon?

https://twitter.com/delreystarwars/status/461579307341840384



I think this is where the disconnect is. When Luke surrendered to Vader and the emperor, you are right, he didn't have the intention of killing Vader. He wanted to turn him to the light. However, as the fight progressed, he gave in more and more to the dark side. Eventually he did fight with the intent to kill. That intent was there all the way to the point he disarms (literally) Vader:

Remember Yoda's teachings? Where he says that you are in the good side when you are "calm and at peace"? He definitely wasn't calm or at peace there. Yoda also says a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack. What did Luke do there?

Now whether or not you count the novels, you can't deny the 1983 novel was taken from the original script. From the book:



Watch the clip above, it matches exactly what was written in the book. The book's publisher confirms that the books are canon where the films align. This definitely aligns IMO.



This is technically incorrect. Luke did not go in there with his lightsaber in hand. He went in there with his lightsaber hanging on his belt, like almost every Jedi (remember how Jedi aren't supposed to simply leave their lightsabers around? )



There's the scene in question above. He goes in, inquisitive. He is trying to read his student. What he sees terrifies him to the point where he ignites his saber. Look at his face, that's fear in his eyes, not murderous intent. He never even tries to swing his saber. The only move he makes with his saber is to block Ben's attack.

Perfect post is perfect. Thanks for taking the time to explain all this.. I was about too but would not have been able to write it as well as you

That's the issue indeed on why TLJ was originally divisive. There's the camp that puts Luke as a paragon of the light and there are others (like me) who never saw Luke as the perfect hero

BAM! Exactly. I find Lue to be the best thing in that mess of a movie.

 

[Khev]

This is the 2nd weird theory about the OT that I have seen on this thread.. The other one being another members take on Luke in Empire... Which I don't remember I just recall it lead to both of us being accused of having bad taste in Star Wars movies

Strange times indeed, lol.

One great thing about the TROS. It has helped people understand the confusing twist and turns of the OT.

 

[jye4ever]

This isn?t even the main problem with TLJ Luke... it?s that he gave up rather than try and right the wrong. He had no hope that Ben could be turned back and went away to die. Now that is something OT Luke would never have done.

I agree Luke should just be 100% the exact same character with zero changes for 40 years that totally aligns with what is required to create compelling character studies and drama lol

What?s next James Bond should never have trust issues with his own government or old alliances being fractured due to ideological shifts and emotional impacts.

Nope lets just keep everything the exact same way ZzzzZzzz




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[Khev]

I agree Luke should just be 100% the exact same character with zero changes for 40 years that totally aligns with what is required to create compelling character studies and drama lol

What?s next James Bond should never have trust issues with his own government or old alliances being fractured due to ideological shifts and emotional impacts.

Nope lets just keep everything the exact same way ZzzzZzzz

This isn’t even the main problem with TLJ Luke... it’s that he gave up rather than try and right the wrong. He had no hope that Ben could be turned back and went away to die. Now that is something OT Luke would never have done.

What are you talking about OT Luke was constantly giving up and attempting suicide, lol.

SW: Watches Ben die, attempts suicide by Stormtrooper until Ben's ghost has to order him to leave.
ESB: Learns Vader is his father, attempts suicide by letting go of the gantry.
ROTJ: Openly brags to the Emperor that soon he'll be dead, then when the Rebels take too long in blowing up the Death Star attempts more direct suicide by disarming himself while taunting the Emperor.

Yes you're right OT Luke would never give up and want to die, lol.

 

[Bravomite]

Do you know what would have been interesting... seeing those character “growths” play out on screen rather than just being given Luke is on an island please guess why and then next guy saying (in my best impression of the Rock) “it doesn’t matter why” he’s a depressed loser because he’s old now. You are all going to get old and see your dreams crushed like Luke hahahaha expectations subverted.

Do you want to know what would really subvert my expectations, if the old guy in these modern “retellings” wasn’t always the loser bum who needed to be coerced into helping. Hey that a be a switch.

Do you enjoy watching things where your child hood heroes are now the losers. Luke and Han both losers and both regressed as characters. What is the point of the heroes journey and Luke’s epiphany at the end if it’s all just chucked in the bin off screen later.

I agree Luke should just be 100% the exact same character with zero changes for 40 years that totally aligns with what is required to create compelling character studies and drama lol

What?s next James Bond should never have trust issues with his own government or old alliances being fractured due to ideological shifts and emotional impacts.

Nope lets just keep everything the exact same way ZzzzZzzz




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bravomite]

Hahaha but by ROTJ his suicidal ambitions had a nobler purpose... distracting big bad long enough for it to be killed. Luke forgot that valuable lesson by TLJ now it was just hide and die maybe at some point eventually but importantly do nothing to help

What are you talking about OT Luke was constantly giving up and attempting suicide, lol.

SW: Watches Ben die, attempts suicide by Stormtrooper until Ben's ghost has to order him to leave.
ESB: Learns Vader is his father, attempts suicide by letting go of the gantry.
ROTJ: Openly brags to the Emperor that soon he'll be dead, then when the Rebels take too long in blowing up the Death Star attempts more direct suicide by disarming himself while taunting the Emperor.

Yes you're right OT Luke would never give up and want to die, lol.

 

[Khev]

Hahaha but by ROTJ his suicidal ambitions had a nobler purpose... distracting big bad long enough for it to be killed. Luke forgot that valuable lesson by TLJ now it was just hide and die maybe at some point eventually but importantly do nothing to help

Lol, I know I'm just messin' with you Bravomite.

Do you know what would have been interesting... seeing those character “growths” play out on screen rather than just being given Luke is on an island please guess why and then next guy saying (in my best impression of the Rock) “it doesn’t matter why” he’s a depressed loser because he’s old now. You are all going to get old and see your dreams crushed like Luke hahahaha expectations subverted.

 

[jye4ever]

Do you know what would have been interesting... seeing those character ?growths? play out on screen rather than just being given Luke is on an island please guess why and then next guy saying (in my best impression of the Rock) ?it doesn?t matter why? he?s a depressed loser because he?s old now. You are all going to get old and see your dreams crushed like Luke hahahaha expectations subverted.

Do you want to know what would really subvert my expectations, if the old guy in these modern ?retellings? wasn?t always the loser bum who needed to be coerced into helping. Hey that a be a switch.

Do you enjoy watching things where your child hood heroes are now the losers. Luke and Han both losers and both regressed as characters. What is the point of the heroes journey and Luke?s epiphany at the end if it?s all just chucked in the bin off screen later.

So you are admitting you didn?t watch the 3rd act of TLJ ok I understand now.


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