Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[xipotec]

Hell if I know why, but I just switched on AOTC on Disney Plus. Those Naboo spacecraft still look gorgeous; and the architecture on Coruscant is more beautiful than I remember it. Let's see if I can sit through it...

I tried last year.....still cannot watch it.....it?s really bad. Same with TPM.

I can still watch ROTS alright.


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[ZE_501]

The love story is somewhat cringe-worthy, but there's a lot to love in the movie.
I especially like Obi Wan in Kamino and his subsequent fights with Jango. His scene with Dooku is also brilliant. Anakin back on Tatooine is great, I love his "chut-chut Watto" and seeing him approaching Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru is a beautiful scene.
I also love the battle on Geonosis, not the arena fight, but the final battle, it's really well done, within the CGI limitations of the time.

I answer with trepidation, because what could either of us say that hasn't been beaten to death on these boards and throughout fandom?

I always loved the brawl between Obi and Jango (didn't love the kid present for it but whatever).

Beyond the production design nearly everything else in that flick loses me. I don't think I hated it on first viewing because it was new Star Wars and I was ready to buy in, but as I've said elsewhere, disappointment set in afterwards.

One thing I'll say about the film --- there's a *story* there. They just needed someone to reign Lucas in but by then it was far too late.

I tried last year.....still cannot watch it.....it?s really bad. Same with TPM.

I can still watch ROTS alright.


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I got about 29 minutes in then skipped around to parts I liked and called it a day.

 

[xipotec]

The only parts I like at all....

Anakin on his speed we racing across Tatooine. (Incredible shot)

Jango Versus Obi.

Padmae white outfit.

I seriously cannot think of anything else redeeming about it.....

Oh wait, The Queens ship exploding in the beginning is a good shot.


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[ZE_501]

[...]

Oh wait, The Queens ship exploding in the beginning is a good shot.


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Those ships are so beautiful, this perfect balance of retro and futurism. Very romantic and evocative.

I've thought many times about what could have made those films good, and today I think:

Episode I: Anakin's a cocky fighter pilot, befriends Obi Wan as war breaks out. Buddy movie.
Episode II: Obi Wan takes it upon himself to train Anakin. We see Anakin's passion darken to aggression and anger as the war progresses.
Episode III: Anakin's fall and betrayal.

The devil is in the details. I think we still need Padme to stoke his fear of loss, I don't think we need immaculate conception or mystery. I think we still need the nascent emperor to seduce him to the Dark Side. Keep Darth Maul and give him much more to do, discard Jango Fett, Grievous, Dooku, Jar Jar Binks and the overly complicated political plot points, leave politics in the background.

Pipe dream, we got what we got. But I think George was so intent on showing the vast sweep of his world that he forgot the most important elements of the story were relationships: the brotherhood between Obi Wan and Anakin, the love for the woman he was terrified of losing, and the seduction to power of the Emperor-to-be.

Duty weakened by Love corrupted by Power.

That story could have been so much more. Maybe too highbrow for what Star Wars actually is, though.

 

[ironwez20]

I still think jar jar was supposed to be the bad guy. I seriously think this. He was heavily marketed and was surprisingly good at combat.

It would been crazy if he came out as a sith

 

[TheDucky]

Darth Darth Binks would have been amazing. The real Phantom Menace.

Binks vs Yoda would have been awesome.

 

[xipotec]

It?s important to remember JarJar is directly responsible for the creation of the Empire and the clone wars.

While Padme is off with Anakin, she leave him alone to cast the deciding vote to give Palpatine emergency powers.

Which directly leads to the next 8 films.

That is canon.

As far as ship design goes, they were awesome, but that?s not GL. That?s some intern we will never know about. The behind the scenes shows GL basically just picking the designs from other people?s work.


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[ZE_501]

[...]

As far as ship design goes, they were awesome, but that?s not GL. That?s some intern we will never know about. The behind the scenes shows GL basically just picking the designs from other people?s work.


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Yep, that?s what directors do. Producers as well, production designers, sometimes art directors.

They steer the big picture, grunts do the detail work.


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[xipotec]

Yep, that?s what directors do. Producers as well, production designers, sometimes art directors.

They steer the big picture, grunts do the detail work.


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I would say Tim Burton would disagree....

By the way some people talks about GL they seem to think he personally created every ship droid and character in SW single handed.

The fact is that GL is basically surrounded himself with the best talent in the industry, and caught lightening in a bottle for the OT.

When left to his own devices we got the PT.

He sold the ST to Disney because he knew he could never re created the OT sensation.


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[ZE_501]

I would say Tim Burton would disagree....

While I'm a fan of his work, I admittedly don't know much about his process. I know Anton Furst was his production designer and understood he was responsible for Gotham and the Batmobile, but from what you're saying Burton was a lot more hands-on?

By the way some people talks about GL they seem to think he personally created every ship droid and character in SW single handed.

There is a subset of Star Wars fans that are bat**** crazy and stupid.

(I'm just mildly neurotic, thank you very much).

The fact is that GL is basically surrounded himself with the best talent in the industry, and caught lightening in a bottle for the OT.

When left to his own devices we got the PT.

He sold the ST to Disney because he knew he could never re created the OT sensation.


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Yeeeep.

I've worked with directors who were very *technically* skilled and had great vision, but they lacked the artistry to put it on film and it showed when they took too much control of a project.

 

[TheDucky]

There is a subset of Star Wars fans that are bat**** crazy and stupid.

Yeah ST fans are pretty bad

 

[ajp4mgs]

By the way some people talks about GL they seem to think he personally created every ship droid and character in SW single handed.

Not single-handed, but he was far more involved than what you're suggesting. George worked with designers to get them to create what he was visualizing. It wasn't something like: "let me just get great artists to design everything, and I'll just approve or reject stuff." And it's not just general throw-away examples like how he guided the second concept of the Falcon by telling them that he wanted something "like a hamburger." His artists will tell you just how hands-on GL was with visuals from the conceptualization point on.

He turned down tons of concept work. Sometimes because he wanted to maintain a "used" or "worn-in" look to his OT universe and rejected "sleek" designs; and sometimes because he just had a more specific aesthetic he wanted. He even created a series of "approval stamps" during the PT to let Doug Chiang know what was "DEEP REGRET," "OK," or "FABULOSO." Those approvals were a way to guide the art department to get closer to what GL wanted.

Samurai, western motifs, Flash Gordon, and other visual elements were all influences on how GL himself wanted certain characters, environments, and ships to look in the OT. So, the "look" of SW in totality actually has always had *a lot* to do with what George wanted for specific things. He saw them in his mind, even if he couldn't draw/paint them himself.

It's fine to say that GL shouldn't get credit for specifically designing SW visuals himself - and thus acknowledging the great work of McQuarrie (OT), Chiang (PT), and others in shaping the look; but to suggest that George just let people come up with their own original aesthetic pieces that he would simply either greenlight or reject is a pretty gross misrepresentation of his contribution to how SW comes across visually on screen, IMO.

He didn't sit there with a pencil or brush while conceptualizing things, but he did more than just leave designers to their own devices without guiding them according to what he himself was visualizing for his universe. For better or worse (there are plenty of awesome concepts that GL shot down), he wasn't a lazy creator just going with what he liked. He had plenty of input all along. Read up on how he specifically wanted pod racer vehicles to look (just for one example), if you want to know how much influence he had.

 

[xipotec]

I am not a fan of the rubber stamp story. Anyone can do that. GL issues are with his total lack of communication on HOW and WHAT his vision was.

A great director would at least be able to explain what he wanted and how to direct the artists more than ?part of this one and some of that one.......?

He is seen doing this countless times in the behind the scenes of the PT. He show literally hundreds of drawing and basically says ....I like this one, and part of that one... that not vision, that is picking parts of other visions.

A true visionary would have a direction before to give the artist some idea of what he was looking for . The infamous hamburger Falcon is an example of lazy vision. I mean , to me, the true visionaries was Macquarie, Williams and Kirshner.
I give credit where due to GL for the OT, but beyond that his work is mostly a cobbling together of thousands of designs others did, with very little guidance from him.

I actually see designs that are so much better that what he picked around the room....some of that art has made it to the internet , once again another round of ?what may have been?.

His actors are constantly saying as much. Almost zero direction aside from, go faster , go slower. He was leaving them to their own devices. Which is fine for the super talented like Ford or Guinness. But for other like Hayden and Portman, it didn?t work out as well.

And for the record , almost all of the designs from Time Burton movies came directly from sketches Burton did .
Most of them were directly translated to his films.
Including Catwomans outfit, Beetlejuice, most of the Nightmare before Christmas characters, Sleepy Hollis designs, Edward scissor hands to name a few.

He is similar to George Miller that way.

https://youtu.be/jZpp2HqRYHw

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[Wor-Gar]

I wonder how many of the details in Vader's mask were a result of George's ideas or the result of McQuarrie having to fill things in?

I would never put down the amazing visionary that George was for the original Star Wars. There are literally endless ideas at work in that first film, and just as many behind the scenes. But finding out just how much of Vader was Lucas inspired -- like did he say "I want a skull in a Nazi helmet" and leave it at that or did he go into detail about the triangular vent for a mouth -- versus just how much was McQuarrie's artistry? I just remember a lot of talk about a "breathscreen" back in the day and Lucas being inspired by The Man in The Iron Mask. Like I wonder if Lucas was blown away by McQuarrie's vision of Vader... or did he go, yeah that's what I see?

I do go with Xipotec for later Lucas. He did a lot of mixing-and-matching for the PT... of course by then the Star Wars "style" had become something any child could envision and add to the universe.

 

[abake]

Not single-handed, but he was far more involved than what you're suggesting. George worked with designers to get them to create what he was visualizing. It wasn't something like: "let me just get great artists to design everything, and I'll just approve or reject stuff." And it's not just general throw-away examples like how he guided the second concept of the Falcon by telling them that he wanted something "like a hamburger." His artists will tell you just how hands-on GL was with visuals from the conceptualization point on.

He turned down tons of concept work. Sometimes because he wanted to maintain a "used" or "worn-in" look to his OT universe and rejected "sleek" designs; and sometimes because he just had a more specific aesthetic he wanted. He even created a series of "approval stamps" during the PT to let Doug Chiang know what was "DEEP REGRET," "OK," or "FABULOSO." Those approvals were a way to guide the art department to get closer to what GL wanted.

Samurai, western motifs, Flash Gordon, and other visual elements were all influences on how GL himself wanted certain characters, environments, and ships to look in the OT. So, the "look" of SW in totality actually has always had *a lot* to do with what George wanted for specific things. He saw them in his mind, even if he couldn't draw/paint them himself.

It's fine to say that GL shouldn't get credit for specifically designing SW visuals himself - and thus acknowledging the great work of McQuarrie (OT), Chiang (PT), and others in shaping the look; but to suggest that George just let people come up with their own original aesthetic pieces that he would simply either greenlight or reject is a pretty gross misrepresentation of his contribution to how SW comes across visually on screen, IMO.

He didn't sit there with a pencil or brush while conceptualizing things, but he did more than just leave designers to their own devices without guiding them according to what he himself was visualizing for his universe. For better or worse (there are plenty of awesome concepts that GL shot down), he wasn't a lazy creator just going with what he liked. He had plenty of input all along. Read up on how he specifically wanted pod racer vehicles to look (just for one example), if you want to know how much influence he had.

The proof of how important GL's vision was/is to SW is looking at the movies with less involvement from him, both in design and world building.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I am not a fan of the rubber stamp story. Anyone can do that. GL issues are with his total lack of communication on HOW and WHAT his vision was.

A great director would at least be able to explain what he wanted and how to direct the artists more than ?part of this one and some of that one.......?

He is seen doing this countless times in the behind the scenes of the PT. He show literally hundreds of drawing and basically says ....I like this one, and part of that one... that not vision, that is picking parts of other visions.

A true visionary would have a direction before to give the artist some idea of what he was looking for . The infamous hamburger Falcon is an example of lazy vision. I mean , to me, the true visionaries was Macquarie, Williams and Kirshner.
I give credit where due to GL for the OT, but beyond that his work is mostly a cobbling together of thousands of designs others did, with very little guidance from him.

I actually see designs that are so much better that what he picked around the room....some of that art has made it to the internet , once again another round of ?what may have been?.

His actors are constantly saying as much. Almost zero direction aside from, go faster , go slower. He was leaving them to their own devices. Which is fine for the super talented like Ford or Guinness. But for other like Hayden and Portman, it didn?t work out as well.

And for the record , almost all of the designs from Time Burton movies came directly from sketches Burton did .
Most of them were directly translated to his films.
Including Catwomans outfit, Beetlejuice, most of the Nightmare before Christmas characters, Sleepy Hollis designs, Edward scissor hands to name a few.

He is similar to George Miller that way.

https://youtu.be/jZpp2HqRYHw

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There has to be a balance between creator (writer/director) vision and artist execution. If you think GL went into production meetings without much of an idea in terms of what he wanted things to look like, then I simply disagree. Just because that video shows Doug Chiang sketching the ship doesn't mean that GL didn't have input that guided the design in the first place. I think you'd find that he did.

If you listen to the ILM artists, and read their interviews, you'll have a hard time getting very far without encountering the statement, "closer to what George wanted."

It's true that GL didn't literally grab a pencil and sketch things himself. And it's true that he picked through multiple versions of concept art. To me, that means he was trying to still let the artists make artistic contributions. All the while, he knew what he wanted and he communicated his vision. Then he let artists do the art. If the end result was totally in line with GL's vision, then it was deemed good to go. If not, it had to be tweaked or discarded.

Someone blessed with a vision, but not blessed with tactical artistic skill, has to rely on artists to bring those visions to life. As far as I know, George wasn't rubber-stamping out of convenience, but as a gentler way to guide the artists toward getting closer to what he wanted. As far as I'm concerned, that's a direct connection to the design of SW's characters, locations, and ships. And his artists have credited him that way countless times.

I wonder how many of the details in Vader's mask were a result of George's ideas or the result of McQuarrie having to fill things in?

I would never put down the amazing visionary that George was for the original Star Wars. There are literally endless ideas at work in that first film, and just as many behind the scenes. But finding out just how much of Vader was Lucas inspired -- like did he say "I want a skull in a Nazi helmet" and leave it at that or did he go into detail about the triangular vent for a mouth -- versus just how much was McQuarrie's artistry? I just remember a lot of talk about a "breathscreen" back in the day and Lucas being inspired by The Man in The Iron Mask. Like I wonder if Lucas was blown away by McQuarrie's vision of Vader... or did he go, yeah that's what I see?

I do go with Xipotec for later Lucas. He did a lot of mixing-and-matching for the PT... of course by then the Star Wars "style" had become something any child could envision and add to the universe.

As far as the actual triangular vent with grills/teeth in Vader's mask, and specific things like that, it was McQuarrie. I don't think GL micromanaged or obsessed over the tiny details like that. The quote below addresses your question, and the link below that is where it comes from.

"Early in the script there was a description of Vader crossing between two ships in space so I created this mask so he could breathe in space, with a suggestion of teeth in the masks grillwork,? McQuarrie said. It was not until the fourth draft that Lucas wrote in more of the backstory of Vader, with his connection to Ben Kenobi and Luke?s father, as well as the duel that followed between Ben and Vader after Vader killed Luke?s father. The duel ended with Vader falling into a volcanic pit and needing the suit and mask that Ralph McQuarrie had come up with.

https://www.starwars.com/news/from-concept-to-screen-bringing-darth-vader-to-life

As far as the PT, I think it was more of a synergy than you guys are crediting GL with. George knew what he wanted, but preferred to let artists take his ideas in fleshed-out directions with their own skills. Personally, I see that as an optimal balance. He specifically told Doug Chiang, pretty much on Day One, to scrap what he thought of as "Star Wars design." The PT was to be far sleeker, cleaner, and more regal. Everything sprang from there with meeting after meeting.

 

[ZE_501]

I am not a fan of the rubber stamp story. Anyone can do that. GL issues are with his total lack of communication on HOW and WHAT his vision was.

A great director would at least be able to explain what he wanted and how to direct the artists more than ?part of this one and some of that one.......? [...]

I have never seen Lucas articulate anything *particularly* well in terms of his aesthetic sensibility, which is why I give more credit to Ralph McQuarrie and Norman Reynolds, amongst others.

This is not to say Lucas did nothing. He had a unique vision in drawing disparate (and familiar) elements together for something no one had seen before, he made the OT ... but so much of what he accomplished depended heavily on the A-Team he somehow wound up working with.

[...] And for the record , almost all of the designs from Time Burton movies came directly from sketches Burton did .
Most of them were directly translated to his films. Including Catwomans outfit, Beetlejuice, most of the Nightmare before Christmas characters, Sleepy Hollis designs, Edward scissor hands to name a few. [...]


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Either I didn't know that or somehow forgot ... I have really foggy memories of sketches now. Anyway, thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[ZE_501]

The proof of how important GL's vision was/is to SW is looking at the movies with less involvement from him, both in design and world building.

He had a vision, but I don't think he could have accomplished it without the unique talents he surrounded himself with.

 

[Wor-Gar]

As far as the actual triangular vent with grills/teeth in Vader's mask, and specific things like that, it was McQuarrie. I don't think GL micromanaged or obsessed over the tiny details like that. The quote below addresses your question, and the link below that is where it comes from.

Yeah, I surmised as much. I think George had a lot of great ideas -- amazing ideas -- but his inability to articulate them and/or draw them forced him to rely on other talent. Which was probably a great thing for Lucas in the long run. He was lucky enough -- or smart enough -- to get really talented people involved.

 

[hellgrammite00]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzc20Bm8Xo

Hysterical breakdown of Vader's armor.


Star Wars is too a lot of people what boy bands are. However it doesn't run out of steam. I think its because you have the visuals, music ,sci fi and western influences that can attrack people to it in different ways.

It fascinates me because Star Wars can show you what a fan truly is. A fanatic. Somebody with a one-track mind to be loyal and entertained by a brand. The mere existence of a logo or icon and stimulate happiness. At some point the difference between TROS and ESB is like asking somebody their preference of cigarettes, they just need that star wars fix either way. For some, having Lucas or Kennedy running the show is irrelevant as long as product is released.

I say this as somebody that really likes the OT, keeps some distance from the PT (what a crazy mess), and looks at the Kennedy trilogy as a wasted opportunity brought down by committee think, corporate sanitation and eventual surrender to fanboy type film making.

Maybe I just dont feel like there is a need for the Kennedy trilogy to exist. At least the prequels was telling a story that we were all curious about. Darth Vaders creation. Granted...the exection was generally bad, but still their is a kernel of interest in that story.

Kennedy trilogy added what? What is driving me to be interested in this story accept just eating more empty star wars. While I think TFA was a decent starting point, perhaps creating a new story for us to grasp too. TFA works somewhat as a stand alone. TLJ was actually working as maybe a worthy sequel, but abandons its values in the 3rd act, adding and solving nothing, and in some ways ending the arc. TROS is just a mess, something to complete a trilogy because big Star Wars movies have to end as a trilogy, regardless if their is a story to tell. We got a 'story', but most people saw it as the cash-grab wreck it was, rushed out to meet a stockholder deadline.

It will be interesting how Disney tries to do more movies at this point. Star Wars is burnt out so much. Mandalorian and cartoons is the only thing of creative value right now that people will pay to see.