Star Wars: The Acolyte

[jye4ever]

Lucasfilm’s priorities are messed up, but it’s really greed rather than “diversity”.

Again, J.J. Abrams was considered bankable. He was not a diversity hire. Bob Iger’s greed forced them all to release an Episode every 2 years. The ST never hd a chance under those conditions.

The Kenobi show started as a movie script written years earlier. Disney+ was hungry for shows so they stretched it out to 8 hours instead of 2, and ended up with garbage. It also never had a chance.

I admit that the Hollywood back-patting about inclusion is excessive and annoying, but it is absurd to pretend that diversity is an indicator of quality, better or worse.

It becomes an indicator of quality as soon as its used as the sole core foundation to tell a good story.

Thank god Lucafilm doesn’t build airplanes lol

Boeing is the Lucasfilm of airplanes

 

[jaztermareal]

Well, that would rule out Helmsworth from
Anything he's done, cause he's got nothing to justify him taking on Thor before he did that Bit parts mostly, his most recognizable as a jock dufus, and Kirk's dad for about 6 minutes of screen time?

misreading my post and generating strawman.

 

[jaztermareal]

We’re going in circles. You’ve explained the perceived correlation between diverse casts and story quality. I’m saying it’s an illusion that fandom would be better off snapping out of.

Correlation does not equal causation, but often correlation is associated with a causal factor.

We are going in circles as it appears you did not fully read and understand what was posted. The point is, people see smoke and assume fire, because, and this is kinda crazy, the two often (though not always) go together.

So while you and I see diverse cast and do not immediately assume fire and call the show trash before seeing it, many will do so despite not watching because they assume (correct or not) that the ideology behind the scenes that resulted in such casting (and interview comments about ideology being part of the story process) will also result in poorer quality story telling.

It could end up being the best star wars show so far but many folk lack the goodwill at this point to offer the benefit of the doubt. There is a reason even South Park mocked modern Disney Star Wars story telling.

I think Andor, though a diverse show, was attacked less due to the trailers signalling high quality, from the acting, to the cinematography to the VFX. The Acolyte trailers look less impressive (weaker dialogue, acting, VFX etc) so folk are not starting from a place of excitement. But even when the Andor trailer dropped it was considered unnecessary, dismissed as a pointless show about some not very popular side character who died in Rogue One anyway, yet it ended up the best Star Wars show so far and with a very diverse cast. Acolyte could be the same, The young cast could turn out to be very talented, the awkward dialogue may play better in full scenes, the writing overall could be very engaging (Russian Doll I have yet to watch but heard only good things so that is a good sign) and the visuals not yet seen could be great.

I am not getting my hopes up though, that would be setting myself up for disappointment. Hope for the best, expect the worst. I hope Acolyte is Andor level great, I expect it to be Mando S3 bad.

 

[jye4ever]

misreading my post and generating strawman.

All that matters to Leslie is that I KNOW the main actress is a gay minority.

That’s very important for her that I know that.

Remember when George Miller told everyone that the main character in Road Warrior was a white straight male….

No?

Good because he never brought it up once to his paying customers that’s why.

 

[Khev]

All that matters to Leslie is that I KNOW the main actress is a gay minority.

That’s very important for her that I know that.

Remember when George Miller told everyone that the main character in Road Warrior was a white straight male….

No?

Good because he never brought it up once to his paying customers that’s why.

He did cast a bunch of ex-criminals who were members of a theater group while in prison as many of the side characters in Furiosa because he thought they'd bring a certain authenticity to their respect roles though.

 

[SwedishHeat]

Now that I've engaged with this issue for a while, I feel like the disagreement is one side feels like diversity is being prioritized over quality at the expense of story, and the other side feels like the story is suffering because content/schedule is being prioritized over quality.

My issue is with people saying "diversity is bad" because they don't like the story. In a galactic-level story, you need diversity to be realistic. Even Carl Sagan called it out in 1978, how strange it was that Star Wars was all white. You also need good story-telling for those diverse characters to showcase their viewpoint and allow the audience to empathize/identify with them.

I would just like to see less of the attacks on diversity as a concept.

 

[Sassafras]

What happened to the the Creative process? It is gone and non existent. Why everything today is garbage. A movie/TV pitch no longer starts with an idea. It starts with the race/gender of the main character/protagonist and is then built around that ideal. You don't pitch a story, you pitch a diverse lead and cast. Story is second. "Lets make a diverse/female centric show. And hire an inexperienced LGBTQ+ writer/director to write that show". That was the beginning of the Acolyte. Not "Let's make a story for the fans that show an earlier period/time of the Jedi Order".

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, there was a time when a writer(s) would sit down with pen & paper/in front of their laptop and create a story, with perhaps a theme or moral to tell. They would hash it out with numerous rewrites and consult other writers/friends to give opinions. Then when they were happy and it was complete, they would try to sell it. And if bought/picked up and put into production, a casting director or team would audition hundreds/thousands of people to find the perfect person to fill each role. The best person for way the character/role was written. And if that person be diverse, white, male, female, whatever, they looked for the actor that could lead and fill the role and sell the story/character to the masses. Today the story is specifically written with diversity at the forefront, and at times they even cast first, then adapt a story to fit a diverse cast.

This process no longer exists. This is the problem. Not the diverse cast or male/female representation. STORY is second.. Kathleen Kennedy in a recent interview about the show talked about how Hedlands script brought her to tears. She then told her she MUST put more of herself and life experiences into the story. She literally told her to change it as to represent herself better.

Members on here are trying to explain why they are unhappy, and where the problem/disconnect lies. But other members want to keep bringing up the ists/phobes and anti this... They refuse to actually listen.

And I don't know all the ins and outs of how the original Alien was cast; but as I recall Ripley was originally written as a guy. Obviously what we ended up with was stellar. IMO tho comic fans may disagree, the original Fury is a white guy. I can't think of anyone except SLJ in that part now. Casting for who can do a part that's already part of the narrative. And then you'll get results like RDJ who wasn't even wanted for THE PART at first and chews it up, and actually ends up writing his own lines.

That's another thing; while actors/actresses may know nothing about a part they are taking on, but respect for those who put their backs into it like RDJ. Sebastian Stan who made the effort to go meet with Ed Brubaker. The famous and missed Heath Ledger.

Vs. what seems to be the latest trend of bringing in inexperienced writers/showrunners who wanna be trendy. So trendy it seems Anakin blew up the Death Star and Dark Side users aren't bad people, necessarily.

We've got a whole inspirational SW mythology revolving around the concept of the Sith being self-based, "beware of the Dark Side of the Force...anger, fear, aggression....consume you it will". Now it's like, "nah, what's a little darkness, plus you get to wear a cool mask." A mythology where ultimately light triumphs, where a man spends his life in some dangerous backwater planet to protect a last, faint, hope; replaced with "bad Jedi, so stuffy and patriarchal".

I would just like to see less of the attacks on diversity as a concept.

But that's part of the surrealism, SW was always diverse. I mean heck, the voice of the iconic villain is the amazing James Earl Jones. It could be argued well back to the 70s - well, maybe Lucas could have cast the Luke, Han and Leia as non-Caucasian but would it had been better? As I recall from reading, Lucas had a time casting for those parts, Han in particular where he hadn't even considered Ford at first, if I got that right.

In any event, if Hedland & co. hadn't made such an issue of it early on, vs. talking about the story, more or less like Favreau did - as well as more or less telling fans how they should view the world - IMO folks like me wouldn't feel sad, seeing more box checking like that for ROP, then any comments about, say, about what she was trying to accomplish, "that she hopes the fans will like it", or "we really worked on the script and made sure every character had a clear role" or, "I watched and rewatched everything SW to make sure our story meshes" or anything like that. Quite different than Favreau's approach talking about the Mandalorian.

 

[TheClient]

Correclation does not equal causation, but often correlation is associated with causal factor.

The point is, people see smoke and assume fire, because, and this is kinda crazy, the two often (though not always) go together. So while you and I see diverse cast and do not immediately assume fire and call the show trash before seeing it, many will do so despite not watching because they assume (correct or not) that the ideology behind the scenes that resulted in such casting (and interview comments about ideology being part of the story process) will also result in poorer quality story telling. It could end up being the best star wars show so far but many folk lack the goodwill at this point to offer the benefit of the doubt. There is a reason even South Park mocked modern Disney star wars story telling.

I understand the point, I just fundamentally disagree that this is a “smoke and fire” situation. I see it as a “smoke and basement flooding”. Fundamentally unrelated.

The suggestion is that these diversity mandates are sabotaging what would otherwise be good stories. I do not think that is true, at all.

A good writer would be able to work within these mandates to tell a good story, and a bad writer would produce a bad story even with zero diversity mandates.

But I appreciate your efforts to educate me on the perspective that inspires all this complaining about the cast, as misguided as I believe it to be.

 

[jye4ever]

I understand the point, I just fundamentally disagree that this is a “smoke and fire” situation. I see it as a “smoke and basement flooding”. Fundamentally unrelated.

The suggestion is that these diversity mandates are sabotaging what would otherwise be good stories. I do not think that is true, at all.

A good writer would be able to work within these mandates to tell a good story, and a bad writer would produce a bad story even with zero diversity mandates.

But I appreciate your efforts to educate me on the perspective that inspires all this complaining about the cast, as misguided as I believe it to be.

Client see my post to Khev right above yours I just wanted to show you just how much I hate gay characters in cinema lol

I hate them so much that Wez is one of my favorite villains of all time!

Are you starting to see the difference?

Are you starting to see how fans will love and embrace anything that comes from pure character driven world building and not modern forced agendas!

Road Warrior is a masterpiece.

Even Toe Cutter from MM1 had a creepy girly punk side that I love very much lol

 

[xipotec]

misreading my post and generating strawman.

I read it fine, anaolgy is not strawmam.

 

[TheClient]

Client see my post to Khev right above yours I just wanted to show you just how much I hate gay characters in cinema lol

I hate them so much that Wez is one of my favorite villains of all time!

Are you starting to see the difference?

Are you starting to see how fans will love and embrace anything that comes from pure character driven world building and not modern forced agendas!

Road Warrior is a masterpiece.

Even Toe Cutter from MM1 had a creepy girly punk side that I love very much lol

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. We are not talking about characters you like in movies you like.

I never said anything about you or anyone else hating diverse characters in finished products. I’m saying you see a relationship between “modern forced agenda” and story quality that does not actually exist.

 

[SwedishHeat]

Warning to everyone, "locker room talk" (crude/crass sexual talk) is not acceptable.

 

[jye4ever]

He never bragged about Aunty Entity's race or gender, nor did anyone complain about her being added to the story. Nobody took issue with "diversity" until Hollywood leftists declared all out war against men and specifically white men. Just like no one took issue with the white male lead in Predator being replaced by a person of color in the follow-up. It was always organic and served the story in a positive way all the way up until 2016.

I do recognize that there *is* a highly annoying extremism on the other side though and they don't do their "cause" any favors by crying "woke" at characters like Supergirl in The Flash or Catwoman and Gordon in The Batman, or Furiosa herself, all of which I have considered to be incredibly inspired casting choices (though at least in Furiosa's case the backlash seems to be rooted in people just wanting Mel to return.)

/\THIS/\

First step to progress is to stop labeling people as racist, anti women and anti gay.

Second bring back strong character driven world building first not % of groups first.

Third WB please I beg you to fund The Wasteland lol

 

[jye4ever]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. We are not talking about characters you like in movies you like.

I never said anything about you or anyone else hating diverse characters in finished products. I’m saying you see a relationship between “modern forced agenda” and story quality that does not actually exist.

But you’re thinking it



I’m just messing with you

 

[Sassafras]

He never bragged about Aunty Entity's race or gender, nor did anyone complain about her being added to the story. Nobody took issue with "diversity" until Hollywood leftists declared all out war against men and specifically white men. Just like no one took issue with the white male lead in Predator being replaced by a person of color in the follow-up. It was always organic and served the story in a positive way all the way up until 2016.

I do recognize that there *is* a highly annoying extremism on the other side though and they don't do their "cause" any favors by crying "woke" at characters like Supergirl in The Flash or Catwoman and Gordon in The Batman, or Furiosa herself, all of which I have considered to be incredibly inspired casting choices (though at least in Furiosa's case the backlash seems to be rooted in people just wanting Mel to return.)

Worse IMO, "they" don't even pay attention to actual diverse casts; or pay attention to fans, at all. Far as I know, women weren't screaming for a female led SW for instance, and happily did their hair as cinnamon bun cosplay.
Then there's the women who are pretty happy to see, yah know, male leads and write dubious self-insert stories .

There's Wonder Woman I guess that got a big response but nothing saved the 2nd one.

Probably shouldn't talk about the Marvels. When is Hollywood gonna wake up to the fact that nothing replaces good, compelling writing and directing. Riri Williams dolls aren't flying off the shelves.

 

[Johnny Utah]

This thread will go nuclear once the show premieres.

 

[Khev]

This thread will go nuclear once the show premieres.

I think the only people watching it will be those on board with KK's agenda so I doubt that there will be much more back and forth than what we're seeing right now.

 

[jye4ever]

I think the only people watching it will be those on board with KK's agenda so I doubt that there will be much more back and forth than what we're seeing right now.

I’m an idiot so I will give the first 2 episodes a chance lol

You know what’s the other problem Hollywood knows their history and that QUALITY diversity existed before they’re just taking advantage of people who don’t know cinema history and trying to sell them on this gibberish.

 

[Khev]

You know what’s the other problem Hollywood knows their history and that QUALITY diversity existed before they’re just taking advantage of people who don’t know cinema history and trying to sell them on this gibberish.

Oh so Jennifer Lawrence wasn't the first female to ever star in a movie ever, lol.

 

[TheClient]

He never bragged about Aunty Entity's race or gender, nor did anyone complain about her being added to the story. Nobody took issue with "diversity" until Hollywood leftists declared all out war against men and specifically white men.

This helps illustrate my point! Even if he had bragged about Aunty’s race or gender, it would still be the very same movie! Even if he had cast Debbie Harry instead of Tina, it would be mostly the same movie, just with different songs. As iconic as Tina and her songs are, Beyond Thunderdome would still play out in largely the same way, for better or worse.

As for your “all out war” comment, I don’t know how to respond to that. It’s an….interesting way to look at the trends in media and pop culture. I won’t engage.