Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[Kamandi]

Ok. I am ready to let go of this thread.

*deep breath.... and........*

Unsusbscribed

Agreed. Doing the same.

 

[RIDDICK]

What a great video.

I still disagree about Kylo tho. He was a highlight, one good thing surrounded by ****.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I still disagree about Kylo tho. He was a highlight, one good thing surrounded by ****.

I don't mind him, but I don't like how he was used in the film. Imagine Luke getting the best of Vader in the first film.

 

[RIDDICK]

Eh, he was injured. By the thing that was blowin' ducktroopers away.
Now the way he acted and got defeated in that fight is another story.

 

[Star Puffs]

A year later and I still hate this film. Its lack of originality, character development, and basic coherence make it truly awful. As uninspiring as they were, every PT film was a superior exercise in storytelling and filmmaking. It is so bad I don't see any possible way it could be redeemed by the subsequent films.

 

[Prime Clone]

I don't hate TFA, in fact I like it more than the prequels (which I don't hate either).

But the OT "rhyming" in the PT is more subtle than in TFA.

 

[a-dev]

I don't mind him, but I don't like how he was used in the film. Imagine Luke getting the best of Vader in the first film.

That came up in some pub conversation tonight and I raised this point but it just doesn't get any hearing in my group. Insinuations of sexism were almost instantaneous. I'm very selective about my sexism you see. I'm OK with Jyn, Sarah Connor and Ripley among others but having a problem with the fact that Rey was better than everyone at everything in film number one of a trilogy is apparently to be frowned upon. Conventions of story-telling and gradual character progression be damned

 

[GasparZizou]

A year later and I still hate this film. Its lack of originality, character development, and basic coherence make it truly awful. As uninspiring as they were, every PT film was a superior exercise in storytelling and filmmaking. It is so bad I don't see any possible way it could be redeemed by the subsequent films.

/thread

 

[ironwez20]

He's right. That's all Star Wars really is now when you think about it, call backs. That's the only thing left. Star Wars works best when it's just fan service at this point.

Which is why they need to do somthing new. But if they do somthing new then fanboys rage and whine cause its not like 77.Rouge one just blows this film away. It took us to new territory while still being familiar.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

That came up in some pub conversation tonight and I raised this point but it just doesn't get any hearing in my group and insinuations of sexism came out immediately. I'm very selective about my sexism you see. I'm OK with Jyn, Sarah Connor and Ripley among others but having a problem with the fact that Rey was better than everyone at everything in film number one of a trilogy is apparently to be frowned upon. Conventions of story-telling and gradual character progression be damned

Yeah, one could argue that Luke's progression and evolution to become a Jedi was too quick and poorly done considering the amount of time he was training, but at least they tried and gave us some kind of explanation for his skills and abilities, such as the jedi mind tricks in ROTJ. Still, even in ROTJ he was far from competent as fighter or as a hero trying to rescue his friend in the beginning of the film.

I don't have a problem with a female character being "perfect" or unstoppable, even if it's the first film in a trilogy, as long as there is an explanation for it, a history or a back story than can easily be shown or mentioned by other characters like in many films that have a one man army type hero or anti hero. In the case of Connor and Ripley, they didn't start out as soldiers or warriors, but there was an explanation for their skills and mental toughness in the sequels. Rey, she mind blocked and mentally dominated Kylo, then easily walked out using a Jedi mind trick out of nowhere without any reason or explanation. Imagine Leia just walking out with a Jedi mind trick and escaping by the time Luke arrives to rescue her, it would almost invalidate Luke's rescue too wouldn't?

Now, if they retroactively explain that in the sequels, fine, but it's lazy writing, imo. This is not a tv show, it's a film and certain basic questions should be answered without the need of sequels.

 

[a-dev]

Yeah, one could argue that Luke's progression and evolution to become a Jedi was too quick and poorly done considering the amount of time he was training, but at least they tried and gave us some kind of explanation for his skills and abilities, such as the jedi mind tricks in ROTJ. Still, even in ROTJ he was far from competent as fighter or as a hero trying to rescue his friend in the beginning of the film.

I don't have a problem with a female character being "perfect" or unstoppable, even if it's the first film in a trilogy, as long as there is an explanation for it, a history or a back story than can easily be shown or mentioned by other characters like in many films that have a one man army type hero or anti hero. In the case of Connor and Ripley, they didn't start out as soldiers or warriors, but there was an explanation for their skills and mental toughness in the sequels. Rey, she mind blocked and mentally dominated Kylo, then easily walked out using a Jedi mind trick out of nowhere without any reason or explanation. Imagine Leia just walking out with a Jedi mind trick and escaping by the time Luke arrives to rescue her, it would almost invalidate Luke's rescue too wouldn't?

Now, if they retroactively explain that in the sequels, fine, but it's lazy writing, imo. This is not a tv show, it's a film and certain basic questions should be answered without the need of sequels.

I'm curious how it'll play in the next two films. Presumably the next one will follow the 'middle' Star Wars film formula of having the bad guys generally victorious. Does that mean Ren will comprehensively beat Rey after she has now had formal training? Well...if it's overall a really good film maybe I won't care whether that makes sense or not. I know of the counter-argument that Ren was injured but even so, I wouldn't have had Rey defeat him, instead escape by way of big giant chasm opening between them or Chewbacca coming to the rescue in the Falcon or something.

Likewise the whole Resistance against the First Order thing, Han dying and Luke being a depressed hermit - these are all things I have misgivings about as they're just not what I really wanted for the post-ROTJ universe - but maybe episodes 8 and 9 will vindicate it all. Till then there's only 4 films I will call canon without reservations - RO, ANH, ESB and ROTJ.

 

[Prime Clone]

Rey's skills are perfectly understandable when you consider she's had to survive as a scavenger since childhood. Her hand-to-hand fighting skills are already formidable, and now augmented by her awakening Force powers.

 

[MegaPrime33]

Considering how close this movie followed the ANH formula, it's safe to assume Ep 8 will reveal parental lineage for either Rey, and what Ren's blood line is. Ep9 presumably will reveal who Snoke is, if in fact he is an already existing character in the universe. Im hoping for a Rebels tie-in for his reveal somehow.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Rey's skills are perfectly understandable when you consider she's had to survive as a scavenger since childhood. Her hand-to-hand fighting skills are already formidable, and now augmented by her awakening Force powers.

Her awakening Force powers? Man, you buy anything they give you, don't you? The only explanation given to Rey using Jedi mind tricks is that it's something we've seen in other films...so it's familiar. That's just lazy. Like I said, it'd be like Leia using a mind trick and escaping in ANH without any explanation.

 

[Prime Clone]

Her awakening Force powers? Man, you buy anything they give you, don't you? The only explanation given to Rey using Jedi mind tricks is that it's something we've seen in other films...so it's familiar. That's just lazy. Like I said, it'd be like Leia using a mind trick and escaping in ANH without any explanation.

I was mainly referring to her skills with a staff (and, by extension, saber). As for the mind trick, she got an inkling of what she was capable of when she pushed back against Kylo's probing.

 

[Star Puffs]

That came up in some pub conversation tonight and I raised this point but it just doesn't get any hearing in my group. Insinuations of sexism were almost instantaneous. I'm very selective about my sexism you see. I'm OK with Jyn, Sarah Connor and Ripley among others but having a problem with the fact that Rey was better than everyone at everything in film number one of a trilogy is apparently to be frowned upon. Conventions of story-telling and gradual character progression be damned

That's very unfair to you. This is an excellent essay that really shows how the 'sexism' smear is not only wrong, but untrue to the professed values of equality:
https://medium.com/@emmalindsay/rey...terrible-for-feminism-c8a1d487db2e#.huuj76vkq

I'm a woman who was looking forward to a female Jedi. I found Rey weakly characterised, poorly developed, and thus implausible relative to the internal continuity of the Force mythos. I just hope my daughter doesn't like her when she is old enough to watch Star Wars.

The best examples I can think of, of female fighters possibly being the best fighter in their respective 'worlds,' are Ziyi Zhang's character from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Brienne of Tarth from Game of Thrones.

In CTHD, we meet Zhang’s character after years of secret training by a woman who was rejected by the fighting sect that Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh belong to. So combined with her natural talent, they create a plausible story. She never fights anyone who really intends to kill her either.

Brienne of Tarth is, again, given a concrete backstory whereby she acquired her skills over time like any other sword fighter, including getting defeated constantly as a girl. The character (and actress) being uncommonly tall and large for a woman further adds to the realism by giving her a more plausible reach and upper-body strength for traditional armed combat.

 

[morphosis]

Rey's skills are perfectly understandable when you consider she's had to survive as a scavenger since childhood. Her hand-to-hand fighting skills are already formidable, and now augmented by her awakening Force powers.

I 100% agree!!! Plus how can you pass judgement on her skills without even knowing everything about her and what we will find out about her in 8 & 9. But she was definitely not amateur and she wasn't perfect either. She made mistakes. She almost got herself Han, Chewie, and Finn and everyone killed by the Rathtars. She got caught by Kylo which wound up leading to Han's death. So She wasn't 100% perfect. People who think she was perfect are missing details of the story.

Plus to say she's too strong i think thats sexism because your basically saying because she's a woman, how can she be that strong? She's strong because she's done everything on her own most of her life. She's been training herself hand to hand combat, flying ships, and is a great mechanic because she has worked on ships most of her life. She's strong willed and won't back down from anything. She knew the Falcon because she used to sneak onto it at night. And to me once she realizes she is Force Sensitive, her force powers are going to be pretty darn strong and come quickly, just like they did for Luke. And for all we know, she could have more midi-chilorians than Anakin had and he was supposedly the highest ever known. And she was able to Jedi mind trick a Stormtrooper. Its well known how weak minded they are. And she figured it out after Kylo tries to get inside her mind. She knew more at that point in her life than Luke ever did at the same age.

So what is wrong with that? To me people have a problem with it because she's female. And i think thats just so wrong and disheartening. She's worked hard her entire life. Left by herself with this nasty Unkar Plutt. She did everything on her own hoping to see her parents again, thats what drove her entire life, just to see her parents again. And She didn't develop her skills overnight. Its been building up for years and years. More than Luke ever had.

look at Anakin, he could fly pod racers better than anyone at 9 years old and also flew a star fighter by the end on PM. No one says anything that he shouldn't be able to do that. And like I said Luke wasn't strong like her at the same age because he was held back by Uncle Owen. But his Force powers started to come quick once Obi-Wan started to teach him. He had no combat training. He flew landspeeders and T16s on Tatooine. thats all the training he had and yet he goes up into the Falcon and hits Tie Fighters like he's been doing it all his life, and then flies an X-Wing and hits one of the most impossible targets there is. Why? because he finds the Force (and a little help from Han & Chewie). No one questions that? Why? because he's "male".

Plus its hard to compare it because we know Luke's story for almost 40 years. but we don't know Rey's full story, so we have to let that develop.

I really don't see any problem with Rey. I think people are missing her details and are being sexist because she's a girl they think she shouldn't be that strong.

 

[Jaycepticon]

That's what I'm looking forward to the most for Ep. VIII. I need a good reason why Rey bested Kylo Ren on Starkiller Base.

As of right now, I don't like what I saw. But if they give me a convincing reason to believe how that happened, the two years I didn't like it will have been a small price to pay.

 

[a-dev]

That's very unfair to you. This is an excellent essay that really shows how the 'sexism' smear is not only wrong, but untrue to the professed values of equality:
https://medium.com/@emmalindsay/rey...terrible-for-feminism-c8a1d487db2e#.huuj76vkq

I'm a woman who was looking forward to a female Jedi. I found Rey weakly characterised, poorly developed, and thus implausible relative to the internal continuity of the Force mythos. I just hope my daughter doesn't like her when she is old enough to watch Star Wars.

The best examples I can think of, of female fighters possibly being the best fighter in their respective 'worlds,' are Ziyi Zhang's character from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Brienne of Tarth from Game of Thrones.

In CTHD, we meet Zhang’s character after years of secret training by a woman who was rejected by the fighting sect that Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh belong to. So combined with her natural talent, they create a plausible story. She never fights anyone who really intends to kill her either.

Brienne of Tarth is, again, given a concrete backstory whereby she acquired her skills over time like any other sword fighter, including getting defeated constantly as a girl. The character (and actress) being uncommonly tall and large for a woman further adds to the realism by giving her a more plausible reach and upper-body strength for traditional armed combat.

Yep, thanks for that^ and the link you provided. I'm almost tempted to post it to certain folk on facebook but things simmered down and I don't want to publicly come across as being quite as bothered as I internally was on the night of the 'almost' argument.

Anyway, there it is. That article - and your post - illustrates the point I might have made if I hadn't been immediately silenced by the more rabid aspect of SJWism in society today. If they had let me finish they might have realised that ultimately




on a different subject look at John McClane's ankle in the above shot!

 

[DiFabio]

Thanks for ruining that scene for me a-dev, thanks a lot. Never noticed that before now that's all I'll see.