Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Prime Clone]

Sublight pursuit be like:

 

[JAWS]

Posting a video showing the ST's shortcomings compared to ALIENS, one of my favorite films of all time?

 

[Khev]

I do agree that because of Rey I now brace myself while watching any new film with a prominent female lead just waiting for the Mary Sue effect to kick in, her to outshine her male counterpart in an eye-rolling, unearned way, etc., and am pleasantly surprised when that doesn't happen like in the new Tomb Raider, IW, or even the live-action Beauty and the Beast. Feige always seems to have his finger on the pulse of what audiences want or will accept and I think he's savvy enough to make sure that that doesn't happen with Captain Marvel but obviously we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[a-dev]

Well, Lucas had long established that the galaxy is full of Force-sensitive beings, but that the Jedi "religion" is the philosophy needed to understand how to use the Force in "superhuman" ways. Remember, Luke spent 20 years on Tatooine without wielding any powers. Introduce him to the concepts of the Jedi, and BAM! Luke is a superhero. Same goes for Anakin. Yes, they had quick reflexes and prescient dreams/visions; but they weren't tossing people around, Force-choking, and mind-tricking.

Even Rey, for all the inexplicable ways she used the Force in TFA, had spent her life on Jaaku fighting with her staff. She wasn't exhibiting super powers or general awareness of what she was capable of. It wasn't until she encountered Kylo (the former Jedi) that she began being a super-powered force to be reckoned with.

I think a fair case can be made that ending the Jedi religion would bring the Force back into balance in a way that even Force-sensitive beings wouldn't be able to take their potential and tap it to the point of being a galactic threat.

It's at least debatable.

All true but there's a definite pattern of less and less contact with (and training by) Jedi Masters required to actually become a Jedi as you go through the trilogies.

Anakin spent years with Obi-Wan (albeit between films off-screen ) and amongst the whole, still-existing Jedi order. Luke starts receiving his jedi guidance many years later in life relative to Anakin; Obi-wan soon dies but conveys him on to Yoda with whom Luke spends.....whatever that was. And then of course Rey....her first mentor isn't even a Jedi - nor is Maz but she seems to have insight into them - then she touches a lightsaber and gets a vision from it - next she 'encounters' Kylo Ren and apparently 'downloads' jedi abilities sufficient to actually defeat him mentally and physically. That before she even meets Luke! He reluctantly gives her a few brief lessons and according to Yoda she 'has everything she needs' or something.

So if this pattern carries on I feel like we should expect entirely self-inspired, self-taught Jedi to be springing up and Luke's plan is all for naught.

I get that. The amount of narrative hand-waving and "fill in the blanks" backstory is definitely a strike against these films, probably the biggest strike in fact. But the positive aspects still outweigh the negatives IMO *and* I don't actually feel like a loser just by watching them so they're definitely far above the PT in that regard, lol.

At least I've gotten 2 films that I am willing to accept as 'official' in Rogue One and Solo.

I LOVE this one! But is it so different than the tragedy that actually played out so far? Isn't the loss of his nephew right out from under his own tutelage a stabbing pain? Isn't the death (or corruption) of his other students that he failed to prevent another sharp wound? If Luke is a good and decent man (as I hope we all agree he is), then shouldn't the events that play out in TFA and TLJ be enough to give him the type of hurt and remorse your scenario would for making him seek exile in his guilt and pain?

I had the same thought reading Bravomite's post, the scenario he described is pretty much what played out in TLJ....I just don't like it.

In the first place I guess it's just not what I wanted to see happen to beloved characters. But even if I get over that I still have to contend with Luke leaving a terrible situation for his sister to deal with, which seems out of character. If I continue to buy into it though I might say that sometimes people do out-of-character things and I guess if anything might cause this it's personal tragedy.

However I think Han should have been pretty pissed off with Luke in TFA and I didn't get the impression he was. This guy didn't really want his son to be trained as a Jedi if I'm remembering right - and after it all goes down the way it did Luke just leaves? Talk about adding insult to injury from Han's perspective.

I just keep going back to - regardless of explanations that may have credibility, this is just not what I wanted to see. Our OT characters all having these sad stories/ends to their lives in an overall story that is highly repetitious and thus doesn't really justify its existence beyond 'give us more of your moneys and watch us use your treasured characters towards this end because we knew they'd reel you in'

Sequels to the OT were arguably never needed. But if they were to happen I wish they'd happened...ohh maybe from about 1999-2005.

 

[cerealkeller]

There is nothing baseless in my post dude, everything you posted defending rj retcon is baseless cause it ignores everything in tfa, defending the retcon is all that maters to you

Is it that he uses facts from events on screen bother you? Is it that he uses sources from books and can actually interpret subtext from characters lines bother you? All I see from your posts can basically be boiled down to "I don't like it and if anybody comes up with explanations as to why something I didn't like happened I'll accuse them of being a RJ lover"




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[chewblacca]

Recently I watched TLJ all over again, but only the Luke and Rey parts, because the rest was seemed pointless. Anyway, I came away with a better understanding of Luke completely.

 

[Prime Clone]

Sequels to the OT were arguably never needed. But if they were to happen I wish they'd happened...ohh maybe from about 1999-2005.

I would’ve loved movie versions of the Thrawn and/or Dark Empire trilogies.

But I’m cool with each trilogy being from a different generation. I just hope Rey has some kind of Skywalker connection (even midichlorian-related) to justify her main-character status.

The more I watch/discuss TLJ the more I appreciate it. It deconstructs SW after TFA reconstructed it. I guess IX will have to find that middle ground.

Of course none of it would be as impressive without what came before. As JJ says, they’re standing on the shoulders of George.

 

[xipotec]

I would’ve loved movie versions of the Thrawn and/or Dark Empire trilogies.

But I’m cool with each trilogy being from a different generation. I just hope Rey has some kind of Skywalker connection (even midichlorian-related) to justify her main-character status.

The more I watch/discuss TLJ the more I appreciate it. It deconstructs SW after TFA reconstructed it. I guess IX will have to find that middle ground.

Of course none of it would be as impressive without what came before. As JJ says, they’re standing on the shoulders of George.

I mean does she need that connection thou?

There were apparently thousands of Jedi for thousands of years whom were powerful and non-Skywalkers.....

Obi is a great example.

And I don’t need Midichlorians counts to give me a reason why someone is powerful with the force....Yoda’s explanation was enough.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Prime Clone]

I mean does she need that connection thou?

There were apparently thousands of Jedi for thousands of years whom were powerful and non-Skywalkers.....

Obi is a great example.

And I don’t need Midichlorians counts to give me a reason why someone is powerful with the force....Yoda’s explanation was enough.

Only because this nine-part series is supposed to be the Skywalker family saga. KK even confirmed that after the Disney buyout. I know Kylo has so far represented the next generation but he's the villain, not the hero.

Midichlorians could be a way of giving Rey a connection without her having to be Luke's daughter.

 

[MegaPrime33]

Maybe someone can enlighten me on understanding TLJ Luke because I don't get it. We see Luke in Jedi, refusing to kill his father because he sensed a great conflict in him. Fast forward a little and he senses the same conflict in his nephew and decided that killing him was the only solution. He went as far as going into Ben's room and even igniting his lightsaber, then chickening out. Probably figured Leia would be pissed if he murdered her only child. Something had to have happened to Luke for him to change so completely.

Also, it would be a huge mistake for them to not connect Rey to someone, whether it's Obi-Wan or some other force user, and leave her as just some regular person. Luke wasn't a regular person for 20 years on Tatooine, he was Anakin's son. Kylo is Leia's son. So to have Rey have zero bloodline to anyone who was a jedi or sith seems like just poor writing in my opinion. Make her Dooku's daughter, I dont care.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Maybe someone can enlighten me on understanding TLJ Luke because I don't get it.

I'd like to give this a shot. I'm going to try doing it by addressing each point you raised, in order.

We see Luke in Jedi, refusing to kill his father because he sensed a great conflict in him.

That's a major key point! Luke sensed conflict in his father because he could sense that the man inside that Vader suit didn't want to kill his son. Luke could sense it very clearly because Luke himself was the object of Vader's conflict. Anakin didn't want to kill Luke, and he ended up not being able to do it.

Fast forward a little and he senses the same conflict in his nephew and decided that killing him was the only solution.

Not true. First of all, Luke wasn't sensing the same conflict. He saw the opposite, actually. In Vader, Luke saw a man who couldn't kill him; even though Vader was certainly capable of overwhelming a more novice Luke. With Kylo, though, Luke saw no such thing because there was no direct reason to. Not only would Kylo be willing to kill Luke, he actually wanted to kill Luke.

That was the brilliance of Palpatine and Snoke: they made sure to get their apprentices to blame their Jedi masters so that those masters could have no hope of turning back their pupils (whom they failed). Anakin wanted to kill Kenobi (after having such a strong connection to him for years). Because Kenobi "failed" or "betrayed" him. And Ben Solo wanted to kill Luke. There was no conflict there for Luke to sense with his nephew like there was with his father; Kylo wanted (and tried) to kill Luke. Maybe someone else would be able to see conflict in Kylo; someone who Kylo didn't blame with a rage. But that's not Luke.

In the OT, Kenobi and Yoda couldn't sense conflict in Vader even though they were more experienced (and powerful) Jedi. Only Luke could sense it because Luke could feel his father's connection. His son restoked Anakin's inner conflict enough for Luke to be able to sense it. With Kylo, Luke was left like Yoda and Kenobi: sensing no conflict in this fallen Jedi who he had failed to keep from turning.

He went as far as going into Ben's room and even igniting his lightsaber, then chickening out. Probably figured Leia would be pissed if he murdered her only child.

That's a mischaracterization of what happened. Luke narrates the final flashback scene in TLJ by explaining his intentions clearly. He went into Ben's hut to learn more about the darkness he had been suspecting in Ben. That was his only goal when he went in there; but what Luke saw was way beyond what he thought he'd see. Luke describes it to Rey like this:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined."

At this point in the flashback, we can hear some of what's happening as Luke uses the Force to see clearer into Ben. One of the first sounds we hear is a lightsaber (Kylo's) being ignited; then we hear the lightsaber being swung, slashing/crashing sounds, and then screams (male and female). Again, here are Luke's exact words (I'm using bold font for emphasis on key parts):

"Snoke had already turned his heart. He who would bring destruction, and pain, and death . . . and the end of everything I love, because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it."

That's when we see Luke light the saber in Ben's hut. It was an impulsive and emotional reaction to the horrors he saw that Ben would commit. It was a reaction based on a desire to keep those things from happening. Luke's last words in the flashback go like this:

"It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame . . . and with consequences. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

Luke didn't follow through on his impulse; and not because he "chickened out," but because that's not who he is. Would other Jedi have killed Ben in that same scenario after seeing all the horrors he would cause, and without reason to see any conflicted intentions? Maybe. But not Luke.

Something had to have happened to Luke for him to change so completely.

Luke didn't change; the circumstances changed. The difference with the Vader scenario is 3 things:

1.) Vader had already committed horrible acts of evil that Luke couldn't erase or prevent (not true with Ben/Kylo).

2.) Luke sensed a conflict in Vader because there was a piece of Anakin there who couldn't kill his son. Not true with Kylo because he clearly wanted to kill Luke; there wasn't an inner conflict that would be evident to Luke (maybe to someone else, though).

3.) Vader didn't blame Luke; he blamed Kenobi. But Kylo does blame Luke. Kylo wants the same vengeance against Luke that Vader wanted against Kenobi. Vader had no such vengeance against his son; he had the opposite . . . and that's what saved him in the end.

Luke knows he can't be the one to save Ben. Luke probably even thinks that Ben is beyond saving. The opposite was true with Vader: Luke knew he was the one who could redeem Anakin. He could sense that clearly enough. But in Kylo, Luke sees something else. It's not the same situation. Plus, there's the guilt element. Luke feels personally responsible and guilty for Ben's fall (like Kenobi felt for Anakin). Luke had no such dilemma with Anakin/Vader; instead of guilt, he had hope. With Kylo, Luke's guilt complicates things to where hope is drowned out (among the other reasons I stated).

 

[Prime Clone]

Yep, that about sums it up. Good job!

Further to Luke “running away”, I personally think he “went looking for some ancient Jedi temple” to find answers to how he could stop Snoke and Kylo. In the process, and blaming himself for the whole mess, he decided shutting himself off from The Force was the most effective solution.

 

[Bravomite]

Ajp, another interesting read thanks for posting .

I agree with a lot of the points you make but think you might have made the odd assumption here and there where the films are a little more ambiguous.

That's a major key point! Luke sensed conflict in his father because he could sense that the man inside that Vader suit didn't want to kill his son. Luke could sense it very clearly because Luke himself was the object of Vader's conflict. Anakin didn't want to kill Luke, and he ended up not being able to do it.

Not true. First of all, Luke wasn't sensing the same conflict. He saw the opposite, actually. In Vader, Luke saw a man who couldn't kill him; even though Vader was certainly capable of overwhelming a more novice Luke. With Kylo, though, Luke saw no such thing because there was no direct reason to. Not only would Kylo be willing to kill Luke, he actually wanted to kill Luke.

That was the brilliance of Palpatine and Snoke: they made sure to get their apprentices to blame their Jedi masters so that those masters could have no hope of turning back their pupils (whom they failed). Anakin wanted to kill Kenobi (after having such a strong connection to him for years). Because Kenobi "failed" or "betrayed" him. And Ben Solo wanted to kill Luke. There was no conflict there for Luke to sense with his nephew like there was with his father; Kylo wanted (and tried) to kill Luke. Maybe someone else would be able to see conflict in Kylo; someone who Kylo didn't blame with a rage. But that's not Luke.

In the OT, Kenobi and Yoda couldn't sense conflict in Vader even though they were more experienced (and powerful) Jedi. Only Luke could sense it because Luke could feel his father's connection. His son restoked Anakin's inner conflict enough for Luke to be able to sense it. With Kylo, Luke was left like Yoda and Kenobi: sensing no conflict in this fallen Jedi who he had failed to keep from turning.

I mean sure kind of. Luke specifically sensed good in his father where Obi-wan and Yoda did not. However, both Yoda and Kenobi had very different backgrounds to Luke, being brought up within the Jedi Order. Indoctrinated in the way of the Jedi where everything was black and white, good and evil, light side and dark side.

Perhaps the question should be, did they even try to look for the good in Vader after his turn. I suspect they didn't once they had seen what he had done, deciding instead that his actions were irredeemable and that he had become a monster that needed to be put down.

Luke believed there was good in Vader but only once he discovered that he was his father. We as an audience were not really given any tangible reason to believe that to be true before the Throne Room scene in Jedi, we only had Luke's feelings and judgement to go on. Luke thought that Vader was conflicted but I don't think it was quite as straight forward as you suggest with Vader not wanting to kill his son.

I believe (subjectivity alert) that Vader had not considered there to be an alternative for him other than to follow the dark path through to its ultimate conclusion (he too came from the Jedi Order background). Vader appeared to hope that Luke could be turned to the dark side so that they could rule the galaxy together as father and son. But at times Vader seemed pretty adamant that if Luke could not be turned then he would die (emotional is the dark side!).

It wasn't until Vader was forced to watch Palpatine put his son through exactly the same manipulations and mental tortures that he himself had been subjected all those years before that he began to waver. Luke came out the other side of the Emperor's goading, triumphant. He had been tested but he returned to the light. Vader realised then that there was another option. Perhaps he too could overcome the dark side (the Emperor being the physical manifestation of it in this scene). However, Vader still needed to be forced to act, watching the Emperor literally murdering his son right there in front of him all the while his son begged him to intervene was the tipping point. Only then did Anakin garner the strength and focus to cast off the shroud of the dark side and embrace the good one last time.

That's a mischaracterization of what happened. Luke narrates the final flashback scene in TLJ by explaining his intentions clearly. He went into Ben's hut to learn more about the darkness he had been suspecting in Ben. That was his only goal when he went in there; but what Luke saw was way beyond what he thought he'd see. Luke describes it to Rey like this:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined."

At this point in the flashback, we can hear some of what's happening as Luke uses the Force to see clearer into Ben. One of the first sounds we hear is a lightsaber (Kylo's) being ignited; then we hear the lightsaber being swung, slashing/crashing sounds, and then screams (male and female). Again, here are Luke's exact words (I'm using bold font for emphasis on key parts):

"Snoke had already turned his heart. He who would bring destruction, and pain, and death . . . and the end of everything I love, because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it."

That's when we see Luke light the saber in Ben's hut. It was an impulsive and emotional reaction to the horrors he saw that Ben would commit.

I'm just going to leave this here ..."Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future" or "The dark side clouds everything, impossible to see the future is."

A wizard (with a laser sword) should know better... hang on wrong movie reference, but the point remains, Luke should know better than to trust in visions of the future. You can not put a person on trial for crimes they have not and might never commit. This is Star Wars not minority report.

Another very powerful and experienced Jedi once said, "You don't know that. Even Yoda cannot see their fate." The future Luke saw for Ben was one possible future. Luke made it come true via his actions in that moment but he shouldn't have ever acted in that way. The quote from TLJ you have referenced just makes Luke seem so disingenuous because he is still trying to justify his actions which he must know to be wrong because Yoda and Obi-wan both taught him otherwise. Ben hadn't turned yet, he had dabbled with dark side in training but the future Luke saw for him might never have been.

Kylo was also shown in TFA and TLJ to hesitate before utilizing the dark side to end his father and then later his mother. That alone suggests there is some conflict in him. He even outright states that he is conflicted and Snoke highlights it as his weakness. Rey senses the good in him, though she might be wrong but ... Disney and the force is female suggest that she is infallible so yeh there is definitely good in him. Vader by contrast is far more unwavering and consistent in ANH and TESB (where he wanted Luke to turn but would have killed him had it not been possible) than Kylo has been in TFA and TLJ.

Just for fun here is a fan edit of the scene in question which I think better conveys to the general audience the potential horrors that Luke sees when reading Ben's future than the film did.

 

[Khev]

I mean sure kind of. Luke specifically sensed good in his father where Obi-wan and Yoda did not. However, both Yoda and Kenobi had very different backgrounds to Luke, being brought up within the Jedi Order. Indoctrinated in the way of the Jedi where everything was black and white, good and evil, light side and dark side.

Perhaps the question should be, did they even try to look for the good in Vader after his turn.

Or maybe they did see the good in Vader but knew the only way to draw it out was to tell Luke to NOT try and save him and pretend that the only way to end the conflict was to kill Vader outright. They pulled a Dr. Strange and knew that the only way Luke could truly come into his own was if the decision was his and his alone, dun dun dunnn. I mean Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't exactly embarrassed on Endor when the guy they supposedly tried to have murdered showed up beside them so maybe that was their plan all along...

I'm just going to leave this here ..."Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future" or "The dark side clouds everything, impossible to see the future is."

A wizard (with a laser sword) should know better... hang on wrong movie reference, but the point remains, Luke should know better than to trust in visions of the future. You can not put a person on trial for crimes they have not and might never commit. This is Star Wars not minority report.

Luke didn't put Ben Solo on trial nor did he carry out any judgment against him. He simply got momentarily freaked out and spazzed with the lightsaber button. No different than Obi-Wan's knee jerk reaction to turn on his saber when Anakin surprised him in the elevator of Grievous' ship. The difference being that Ben Solo was truly evil and rather than come clean on what Luke sensed inside him decided it would just be best to slaughter everyone then and there.

 

[Bravomite]

Or maybe they did see the good in Vader but knew the only way to draw it out was to tell Luke to NOT try and save him and pretend that the only way to end the conflict was to kill Vader outright. They pulled a Dr. Strange and knew that the only way Luke could truly come into his own was if the decision was his and his alone, dun dun dunnn. I mean Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't exactly embarrassed on Endor when the guy they tried to have murdered showed up beside them so maybe that was their plan all along...



Luke didn't put Ben Solo on trial nor did he carry out any judgment against him. He simply got momentarily freaked out and spazzed with the lightsaber button. No different than Obi-Wan's knee jerk reaction to turn on his saber when Anakin surprised him in the elevator of Grievous' ship. The difference being that Ben Solo was truly evil and rather than come clean on what Luke sensed inside him decided it would just be best to slaughter everyone then and there.

Holy crap Khev you just blew mind!! Those dang devious Jedi haha.

Khev I know you want Kylo to stay evil because he murdered Han Solo but Disney man Disney. Though irredeemable evil villain would be interesting but a sad legacy for the Skywalker family.

 

[Sachiel]

He simply got momentarily freaked out and spazzed with the lightsaber button. No different than Obi-Wan's knee jerk reaction to turn on his saber when Anakin surprised him in the elevator of Grievous' ship.

Luke took around ten seconds from grabbing his lightsaber to igniting it.

 

[Khev]

Holy crap Khev you just blew mind!! Those dang devious Jedi haha.

Yep, lol.

Khev I know you want Kylo to stay evil because he murdered Han Solo but Disney man Disney. Though irredeemable evil villain would be interesting but a sad legacy for the Skywalker family.

1. Kylo is irredeemably evil.

2. Rey is a Skywalker who puts on Vader helmet and kills Kylo.

3. Skywalker bloodline ends with a good character, Kylo is dead and gets no ghost, Khev happy.

Looks like a good way to wrap things up to me! I'd even accept Rey really being a nobody but who is crowned an honorary Skywalker by Luke himself.

"Skywalker becomes a title? Egads whatsa meesa saying!"

Lol, but in all seriousness I'd accept it.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Luke thought that Vader was conflicted but I don't think it was quite as straight forward as you suggest with Vader not wanting to kill his son.

Luke had no basis for thinking that Vader could be redeemed other than the fact that he could sense Anakin's attachment to him as a son. That's why in the scene below, when Luke tells Vader about the good in him, the first thing he references is "that was why you couldn't destroy me." That's Luke's reference point. And right after he says that, you can see how Luke couldn't read anything else about Anakin clearly. Luke says to Vader: "that's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now." He was wrong . . . about a great many things.

EDIT: The video itself doesn't play from here (don't know why), but clicking the YouTube link embedded in the video screen will still take you to the clip on YouTube. I hate technology sometimes.



To further cement how Luke based Anakin's conflict on his feelings for Luke, the scene ends with Luke saying: "Then my father is truly dead." Because if his love for his son is gone, then the good in Anakin is gone. That's all Luke had to guide his hope in redemption.

And I think that was the whole point with Vader's turn: he turned to save his son; and Lucas then told us that his turn to the dark had come to save his wife. After his turn started because he failed to save his mother. Family!

Another very powerful and experienced Jedi once said, "You don't know that. Even Yoda cannot see their fate." The future Luke saw for Ben was one possible future. Luke made it come true via his actions in that moment but he shouldn't have ever acted in that way. The quote from TLJ you have referenced just makes Luke seem so disingenuous because he is still trying to justify his actions which he must know to be wrong because Yoda and Obi-wan both taught him otherwise. Ben hadn't turned yet, he had dabbled with dark side in training but the future Luke saw for him might never have been.

But the whole point is that Luke didn't follow through on his impulse. He thought about how everything he loved could be taken by this corrupted nephew . . . and he had a very natural impulsive reaction to prevent that from happening. That doesn't contradict anything about the Luke we knew before. It doesn't make him a bad person to have had a fleeting instinct to end an evil before it begins. What matters is that he didn't do it.

Luke is impulsive; just as he was when he went after Vader for threatening Leia. But he stopped himself from going too far. Then Master Luke stopped himself again with Ben. Impulsive, but prudent. Emotional, but ethical. Sparing the life of family, even without knowing what type of harsh consequences that would have for the galaxy. Same Luke.

As far as seeing the future: yes, it is always in flux. But these Jedi visions are also informative. The future Luke saw was horrific. The TFA novel tells us that Kylo had been corrupted by Snoke for years. The future had been set in motion. Luke explicitly says that Ben's heart had been turned. No ambiguity there. No "being torn." No "conflicted" heart.

Kylo was also shown in TFA and TLJ to hesitate before utilizing the dark side to end his father and then later his mother. That alone suggests there is some conflict in him. He even outright states that he is conflicted and Snoke highlights it as his weakness. Rey senses the good in him, though she might be wrong but ... Disney and the force is female suggest that she is infallible so yeh there is definitely good in him. Vader by contrast is far more unwavering and consistent in ANH and TESB (where he wanted Luke to turn but would have killed him had it not been possible) than Kylo has been in TFA and TLJ.

Sure, Kylo proved to be clearly conflicted later; but in that moment with Luke and the lit lightsaber, Kylo literally brought the ceiling down on Luke in an effort to kill him. He left Luke there and went to torch things, and kill people, that night because he presumed Luke dead.

On that night, Ben Solo killed Jedi students! He burned down Luke's academy. That future played out immediately. Luke couldn't have prevented those evil actions. He stood there with a lit lightsaber, but had only contemplated using it for a fleeting moment. He wasn't going to harm Ben. And Ben knew it. Ben turned a lightsaber on Luke because he knew that Luke had seen the truth.

I'm not saying that Kylo isn't conflicted. I'm saying that Luke couldn't see it. And, yes, I compare that to Kenobi and Yoda not being able to see any conflict in Vader. Not because it couldn't be there, but because they couldn't see it. Like Luke couldn't see it in Kylo (and maybe still hadn't by the end of TLJ).

As far as Kenobi and Yoda even looking for some sign in Vader, all I can offer as proof is that in one of the final drafts of the ROTJ script, Kenobi's spirit responds to Luke saying that there's still good in him this way: "I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." I know that the dialogue was changed for the final cut, but still, Lucas had at one point conceived of Kenobi thinking he could reach Anakin. But he had to accept that Anakin was fully lost because he couldn't see any conflict. Luke only saw it because the conflict was all about Luke; his son.

 

[Bravomite]

"Skywalker becomes a title? Egads whatsa meesa saying!"

A JarJar quote, a surprise to be sure but a welcome one.

This is might just happen as well with the current thinking at LucasFilm. Now yousa and mesa and every bombard gungan can be a using tha force and be a skywalker, we allsa special but not special because we alls tha same okieday

1. Kylo is irredeemably evil.

2. Rey is a Skywalker who puts on Vader helmet and kills Kylo.

3. Skywalker bloodline ends with a good character, Kylo is dead and gets no ghost, Khev happy.

Looks like a good way to wrap things up to me! I'd even accept Rey really being a nobody but who is crowned an honorary Skywalker by Luke himself. :

Your faith in your pitiful speculation is yours... oh you didn't say i had a weakness um well anyway

Everything that has transpired has done so, according to my design. Your friends, out there supporting TLJ, are walking into a trap, as is your AJP fleet. It was I who allowed the KK to know of your latest hopeful speculation. The plot is quite safe from your pitiful three Khev happy points. An entire legion of awkward humour, plot holes and Rose Ticos awaits you. [mockingly] Oh, I'm afraid Kylo Ren will be quite redeemable in the final act.

 

[Khev]

Your faith in your pitiful speculation is yours... oh you didn't say i had a weakness um well anyway

Everything that has transpired has done so, according to my design. Your friends, out there supporting TLJ, are walking into a trap, as is your AJP fleet. It was I who allowed the KK to know of your latest hopeful speculation. The plot is quite safe from your pitiful three Khev happy points. An entire legion of awkward humour, plot holes and Rose Ticos awaits you. [mockingly] Oh, I'm afraid Kylo Ren will be quite redeemable in the final act.