Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[ajp4mgs]

I was thinking about how Ep9 might use the Knights of Ren, and that brought to mind the discussion we had here about what Luke saw in Kylo. Some people seem to believe that Ben Solo might not have turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't been standing there in the hut with his lit-up green lightsaber. I don't see how that can even be a consideration, and the Knights of Ren might be the best way to explain why.

In TLJ, Luke tells Rey that after Ben brought the ceiling down on him that night, he went on to kill some of the Jedi students and then burn down Luke's temple. Luke also says that Ben then left with a group of other students (who we can safely assume are the Knights of Ren) that same night. Ben/Kylo would not have recruited Luke's students to turn evil and join him on that one night alone. (Not unless Luke was the worst Jedi master of all time. ) Kylo would have been recruiting these students over a period of time. And it would be for a dark purpose. For Snoke's purpose: to eliminate the Jedi (Luke included, obviously).

Kylo had already been corrupted by Snoke. Not just "tempted," and not just "starting." Kylo had already turned. Luke not only says as much in the flashback (very explicitly), but the Knights of Ren are proof that Luke was right. So I think that's a key point: Luke saw Ben's corruption clearly. I also think it would be fair to say that Kylo Ren, for some time, had merely been pretending to still be Ben Solo. And when Luke saw that his nephew had already been turned to the dark, Kylo knew that there'd be no point in pretending any further.

When Ben/Kylo reached for his lightsaber from the nightstand, it wasn't in self-defense; it was to strike at Luke. Because he had been found out. He ended up resorting to caving in the ceiling on top of Luke, and presumed his uncle to be dead (as Luke explains to Rey). That allowed all the rest of the evil to play out that night. Luke was left stunned by what had been happening under his watch (similar to what had happened with Anakin under the watch of the Jedi). It sent Luke reeling. It sent him into exile with a desperate idea on how to keep this from ever happening again. That's the foundation for the central story of the ST.

For anyone to believe that Ben had not already been turned, you'd have to believe that he convinced Luke's Jedi students to help him slaughter the others and burn their master's temple/academy . . . in one night! That would make no sense. You'd also have to ignore things Leia said in both movies, and especially her extended conversation with Han in the TFA novel. The way I see it, the extent of Kylo's corruption shouldn't be in doubt; when Luke came to Ben's hut as he slept, he was already turned. And Kylo (actually Snoke, more than likely) had already recruited other students to turn on Luke. I think that makes it even more tragic than what happened to Kenobi with Anakin.

 

[Khev]

I was thinking about how Ep9 might use the Knights of Ren, and that brought to mind the discussion we had here about what Luke saw in Kylo. Some people seem to believe that Ben Solo might not have turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't been standing there in the hut with his lit-up green lightsaber. I don't see how that can even be a consideration, and the Knights of Ren might be the best way to explain why.

In TLJ, Luke tells Rey that after Ben brought the ceiling down on him that night, he went on to kill some of the Jedi students and then burn down Luke's temple. Luke also says that Ben then left with a group of other students (who we can safely assume are the Knights of Ren) that same night. Ben/Kylo would not have recruited Luke's students to turn evil and join him on that one night alone. (Not unless Luke was the worst Jedi master of all time. ) Kylo would have been recruiting these students over a period of time. And it would be for a dark purpose. For Snoke's purpose: to eliminate the Jedi (Luke included, obviously).

Kylo had already been corrupted by Snoke. Not just "tempted," and not just "starting." Kylo had already turned. Luke not only says as much in the flashback (very explicitly), but the Knights of Ren are proof that Luke was right. So I think that's a key point: Luke saw Ben's corruption clearly. I also think it would be fair to say that Kylo Ren, for some time, had merely been pretending to still be Ben Solo. And when Luke saw that his nephew had already been turned to the dark, Kylo knew that there'd be no point in pretending any further.

When Ben/Kylo reached for his lightsaber from the nightstand, it wasn't in self-defense; it was to strike at Luke. Because he had been found out. He ended up resorting to caving in the ceiling on top of Luke, and presumed his uncle to be dead (as Luke explains to Rey). That allowed all the rest of the evil to play out that night. Luke was left stunned by what had been happening under his watch (similar to what had happened with Anakin under the watch of the Jedi). It sent Luke reeling. It sent him into exile with a desperate idea on how to keep this from ever happening again. That's the foundation for the central story of the ST.

For anyone to believe that Ben had not already been turned, you'd have to believe that he convinced Luke's Jedi students to help him slaughter the others and burn their master's temple/academy . . . in one night! That would make no sense. You'd also have to ignore things Leia said in both movies, and especially her extended conversation with Han in the TFA novel. The way I see it, the extent of Kylo's corruption shouldn't be in doubt; when Luke came to Ben's hut as he slept, he was already turned. And Kylo (actually Snoke, more than likely) had already recruited other students to turn on Luke. I think that makes it even more tragic than what happened to Kenobi with Anakin.

I totally agree that if Ben Solo had already corrupted several other pupils that it's proof that he had already begun carrying out dark deeds however...based on Luke's quote from TLJ we won't know for certain if that was the case until Abrams spells it out in Episode IX.

Luke's exact quote was this: "He had vanished with a handful of my students, and slaughtered the rest." That does leave open the possibility that Ben Solo alone was doing the slaughtering and a select few joined him at the end. Maybe, *maybe* even the Knights of Ren *aren't* truly turned and only pretended to go along with him to spare themselves from being executed and are simply biding their time to avenge Luke and the rest of their fellow students. Could be an interesting way to go. To undo Rey's "Mary Sue-ness" they can have her only able to defeat Kylo one final time with the help of the other knights.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I totally agree that if Ben Solo had already corrupted several other pupils that it's proof that he had already begun carrying out dark deeds however...based on Luke's quote from TLJ we won't know for certain if that was the case until Abrams spells it out in Episode IX.

Luke's exact quote was this: "He had vanished with a handful of my students, and slaughtered the rest." That does leave open the possibility that Ben Solo alone was doing the slaughtering and a select few joined him at the end. Maybe, *maybe* even the Knights of Ren *aren't* truly turned and only pretended to go along with him to spare themselves from being executed and are simply biding their time to avenge Luke and the rest of their fellow students. Could be an interesting way to go. To undo Rey's "Mary Sue-ness" they can have her only able to defeat Kylo one final time with the help of the other knights.

Very true. We don't know for sure that those students had already been turned, so that was merely an assumption on my part. My bad.

But, if those students who went with him didn't resist a Ben/Kylo who butchered their comrades and torched Luke's temple, then Luke was indeed a horrible Jedi master who didn't instill much strength or character in his pupils. And if it's just because they were too young to fight back, or be of any use, then how were they accompanying Kylo as he slaughtered people in the TFA flashback we saw in Rey's "visions" (assuming those were indeed the Knights, and the same group of students)?

I'm betting that the students Kylo took that night not only end up being the Knights of Ren, but would have been recruited in advance of that night. If not, then I'll have plenty of questions.

 

[xipotec]

I was thinking about how Ep9 might use the Knights of Ren, and that brought to mind the discussion we had here about what Luke saw in Kylo. Some people seem to believe that Ben Solo might not have turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't been standing there in the hut with his lit-up green lightsaber. I don't see how that can even be a consideration, and the Knights of Ren might be the best way to explain why.

In TLJ, Luke tells Rey that after Ben brought the ceiling down on him that night, he went on to kill some of the Jedi students and then burn down Luke's temple. Luke also says that Ben then left with a group of other students (who we can safely assume are the Knights of Ren) that same night. Ben/Kylo would not have recruited Luke's students to turn evil and join him on that one night alone. (Not unless Luke was the worst Jedi master of all time. ) Kylo would have been recruiting these students over a period of time. And it would be for a dark purpose. For Snoke's purpose: to eliminate the Jedi (Luke included, obviously).

Kylo had already been corrupted by Snoke. Not just "tempted," and not just "starting." Kylo had already turned. Luke not only says as much in the flashback (very explicitly), but the Knights of Ren are proof that Luke was right. So I think that's a key point: Luke saw Ben's corruption clearly. I also think it would be fair to say that Kylo Ren, for some time, had merely been pretending to still be Ben Solo. And when Luke saw that his nephew had already been turned to the dark, Kylo knew that there'd be no point in pretending any further.

When Ben/Kylo reached for his lightsaber from the nightstand, it wasn't in self-defense; it was to strike at Luke. Because he had been found out. He ended up resorting to caving in the ceiling on top of Luke, and presumed his uncle to be dead (as Luke explains to Rey). That allowed all the rest of the evil to play out that night. Luke was left stunned by what had been happening under his watch (similar to what had happened with Anakin under the watch of the Jedi). It sent Luke reeling. It sent him into exile with a desperate idea on how to keep this from ever happening again. That's the foundation for the central story of the ST.

For anyone to believe that Ben had not already been turned, you'd have to believe that he convinced Luke's Jedi students to help him slaughter the others and burn their master's temple/academy . . . in one night! That would make no sense. You'd also have to ignore things Leia said in both movies, and especially her extended conversation with Han in the TFA novel. The way I see it, the extent of Kylo's corruption shouldn't be in doubt; when Luke came to Ben's hut as he slept, he was already turned. And Kylo (actually Snoke, more than likely) had already recruited other students to turn on Luke. I think that makes it even more tragic than what happened to Kenobi with Anakin.

Excellent, albeit obvious to anyone who bother to actually think about the film in any depth.

Most people who didn’t like the film really have not thought enough on the problems they had with it. The visceral reaction prevents them from seeing the obvious sometimes. And I can understand that to a point. Sometimes folks on this forum who hate the film say stuff that makes me wonder if they even saw the film.

Playing devils advocate they will say that the almighty perfect Jedi Master Luke Skywalker would have been able to tell his pupils were going bad much sooner (as he is a perfect Jedi) and these bad kids would never have slipped on by his perfect abilities (and they complain Rey is a Mary Sue!)

Yet , Luke never could sense his own father at any time during the trilogy....except in the final act, and if you ask me, he was still guessing/hoping his father had good in him. I refer to the scene where Vader ignites Lukes new saber behind his back....Luke looks uncertain for a moment.

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[slikkerias]

I'm usually willing to suspend disbelief, but one aspect of TLJ is bugging me (and it's not Carrie Poppins or zero-G bombs!)

How is it possible to exit a cruiser in hyperspace, undertake a side mission of several hours (or days), then catch up to the cruiser again? Are smaller ships that much faster than bigger ones?

It’s incredible how people keep thinking that SW needs to make scientific sense. It never did and it never intended to do so. That was the whole point of calling it a space fantasy film instead of science fiction. If you watch the ESB documentary they point that out again and again. Everything is possible. Criticizing SW from this angle makes it obvious that there’s a lack of general understanding of the franchise. Sorry
...and hyperspace travel *

 

[evenflow]

Someone sent this to me yesterday. Thought is was pretty accurate...for me anyway.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Playing devils advocate they will say that the almighty perfect Jedi Master Luke Skywalker would have been able to tell his pupils were going bad much sooner (as he is a perfect Jedi) and these bad kids would never have slipped on by his perfect abilities (and they complain Rey is a Mary Sue!)

You're right that complaints along those lines will be a certainty . . . but they'll also be unjustified. When you consider that Palpatine was a dark lord without Yoda (or anyone on the Council) ever sensing it, and that Anakin was turning without Kenobi sensing it, Luke wouldn't/shouldn't be any different in being oblivious to his own pupils being turned.

Yet , Luke never could sense his own father at any time during the trilogy....except in the final act, and if you ask me, he was still guessing/hoping his father had good in him. I refer to the scene where Vader ignites Lukes new saber behind his back....Luke looks uncertain for a moment.

Yeah, I never got the sense that Luke had a strong read on actual "good" in Vader. Luke deduced it from the conflict he sensed in his father. But that conflict was something that only came up when Vader got to feel a connection with his son. Luke was the actual source of it; that bond to his son/family. There had been no apparent conflict in Vader when he sought out Kenobi in ANH, and didn't hesitate to put a lightsaber through his old master. And there was no indication of any "good" conflicting him when he was choking innocent people to death (who posed no threat).

In that ROTJ scene on the Endor walkway, Vader tells Luke that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." So, when he goes on to turn Luke over to be taken to the Emperor, you can see that Luke appears to lose some hope in Anakin's goodness. Luke's last words to Vader there (and Hamill's expressions) make it seem like he was willing to accept that appealing to any good in Vader might be a lost cause. Because Vader was betraying his son.

If you think about it, Luke's surrender (and his earlier conversation with Leia on Endor) suggests that he was virtually certain that Vader wouldn't turn him over to the Emperor. Luke never really expected to be on the Death Star in the first place. When he ends up in the throne room, Luke resorted to his lightsaber in desperation (trying to kill Palpatine as a way to save his friends). Luke wasn't trying to appeal to Vader's goodness there. It wasn't until actually dueling Vader that Luke again sensed his father's conflict. When up on that DS catwalk, Luke repeated that he could sense that Vader wouldn't be able to destroy him.

Being conflicted when it came to killing his son was always what Luke sensed in Vader. That was the case every time. Luke's final appeal to his father came when he was dying at the hands of the Emperor. Same conflict. Anakin turned on Palpatine at the end in order to save his son. That love for his family is what anchored Anakin to goodness. He'd lost one such anchor when he couldn't save his mother, and then another when he couldn't save Padme. Luke gave him a new anchor - one that was totally unexpected (even to Palpatine). So, saving Luke was Anakin's redemption in more ways than one.

Anakin's strong connection to family was even punctuated with his last words: "Tell your sister, you were right!"

 

[a-dev]

In that ROTJ scene on the Endor walkway, Vader tells Luke that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." So, when he goes on to turn Luke over to be taken to the Emperor, you can see that Luke appears to lose some hope in Anakin's goodness. Luke's last words to Vader there (and Hamill's expressions) make it seem like he was willing to accept that appealing to any good in Vader might be a lost cause. Because Vader was betraying his son.


.......

Anakin's strong connection to family was even punctuated with his last words: "Tell your sister, you were right!"

I've thought of that line ''then my father is truly dead'' as a deliberate 'guilt-trip' of sorts that Luke is putting on whatever Anakin is still there. Like he's saying ''prove me wrong''. So that's another way it can be read.

And as regards Anakin/Vader's last words ''Tell your sister, you were right'' - I think I brought that up in the last year - if Luke actually did deliver that message to Leia - literally just ''Our father told me to tell you I was right about there still being good in him'' - I don't think she would have taken that well. She only just found out that he was her biological father and probably still hadn't reconciled that with the bastard who tortured her and oversaw the destruction of Alderaan. So that guy now has the audacity to say ''see? there was good in me afterall''. Not even a 'sorry'?

 

[ajp4mgs]

I've thought of that line ''then my father is truly dead'' as a deliberate 'guilt-trip' of sorts that Luke is putting on whatever Anakin is still there. Like he's saying ''prove me wrong''. So that's another way it can be read.

Yeah, that could be too. But Luke was so hopeful (maybe even certain) that his father wasn't going to turn him over to the Emperor, and that line came right after Vader shattered that hope/expectation by signaling to the Stormtroopers to take Luke away. That's why I see it more as Luke accepting that Anakin might be a lost cause. I could be completely wrong, though.

And as regards Anakin/Vader's last words ''Tell your sister, you were right'' - I think I brought that up in the last year - if Luke actually did deliver that message to Leia - literally just ''Our father told me to tell you I was right about there still being good in him'' - I don't think she would have taken that well. She only just found out that he was her biological father and probably still hadn't reconciled that with the bastard who tortured her and oversaw the destruction of Alderaan. So that guy now has the audacity to say ''see? there was good in me afterall''. Not even a 'sorry'?

In the "Bloodline" novel, it actually has Leia recounting Vader's torture of her, and how he held her in place as Alderaan was destroyed. Her description of those events adds to your point. The novel goes on to describe how she never accepted her father's redemption the way that Luke did. Here's a photo I took of that page regarding her torture by Vader:

 

[Josette]

I always thought with the night Ben Solo turned, a fight could've broken out among the students outside the hut that Ben brought down on Luke - with some horrified and thinking he was evil and others siding with him and there was a struggle. Kylo and the students who sided with him came out on top and they went with him.

 

[xipotec]

I always thought with the night Ben Solo turned, a fight could've broken out among the students outside the hut that Ben brought down on Luke - with some horrified and thinking he was evil and others siding with him and there was a struggle. Kylo and the students who sided with him came out on top and they went with him.

My take as well. Kylo may have been steering his friends against the old jedi master for quite some time. Echoing what Snoke was likely feeding him.....Luke is trying to control you, your stronger than he is, he want to take you out before you succeed him as most powerful....etc etc....

After the hut comes down, Kylo could have made up any lie about what happened, or simply reinforced his take on Luke and used that incident as a way to prove to his friends what he had been saying about Luke was true....



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[TonTon]

Man, they really should have showed what went down at the temple. Maybe they will in 9. Overall though, don’t think I’m crazy about the fact that they introduced flashbacks in the ST.

 

[Rixx]

 

[xipotec]

Are you taking over where Vault Boy left off?


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[jal76]

Are you taking over where Vault Boy left off?


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Still trying to get my head around participating in a discussion forum and posting the thoughts of a random stranger instead of one's own thoughts...strange phenomenon...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Still trying to get my head around participating in a discussion forum and posting the thoughts of a random stranger instead of one's own thoughts...strange phenomenon...

At least I'm learning that these videos can be good for unintended laughs. The guy in that latest one keeps repeating how irrelevant Rian Johnson is . . . as he gives an 11-minute rant about Rian Johnson (nearly a full year after the movie came out). When referring to Johnson, he says "This man cannot let it go!" I just love the irony of that.

The crux of the video is that Johnson doesn't get the Luke Skywalker character because Luke is the "eternal optimist." He repeats that several times as if Luke never had his hope and faith turn to cynicism in the OT. Yep; the "eternally optimistic" Luke who screamed "NEVERRRRR!!!!!" and went after his dad with a murderous fury. The same Luke who pulled a blaster on Jabba in an attempt to assassinate him because Jabba wouldn't listen to reason (or to mind tricks).

So, coming within seconds of murdering his father for threatening to turn Leia (after insisting there was good in Vader) was consistent with eternal optimism because Luke stopped himself in time. But having a fleeting impulse that goes no further than igniting a lightsaber (even though the darkness he saw in his nephew actually played itself out that very same night) is way out of character. Thank goodness YouTube is full of these geniuses who understand Star Wars, and SW characterizations, so damn well.

Like when Luke threw a hissy fit in Yoda's hut, it must've been his eternal optimism kicking in. And when Yoda told him he wouldn't need his weapons in the cave . . . and Luke took them anyway; yep, there's that persistent faith again. And when Luke told Yoda, "we'll never get it out now" and "you want the impossible" . . . that's what led to the great line of: "That is why you fail . . . your eternal optimism." Oh, wait; is that how Yoda's line went? Had to be.

Here's another example of the amazingly comprehensive grasp on these characters. In the video, he objects to Luke sensing only evil in Kylo, even though he was able to see good in Vader. He says about Kylo, "You know what he did with his evilness? He destroyed an elevator and a computer console." He compares that to Vader by saying, "What did Vader do? He murdered younglings; he killed his wife; he killed tons and tons of Jedi" and "he kills his own men; he cut his son's hand off; he froze Han Solo in carbonite." Well, let's see how that all holds up to scrutiny:

• Vader: murdered younglings. Kylo: murdered his uncle's Jedi students.
• Vader: killed his wife (semi-unintentionally). Kylo: murdered his father (very intentionally).
• Vader: killed "tons and tons" of Jedi. Kylo: has a village destroyed over a map fragment! Then murders a family friend (Lor San Tekka) . . . just because.
• Vader: kills his own men. Kylo: kills his own boss (and his guards)! And not just to become a good guy again, btw.
• Vader: cuts Luke's hand off. Kylo: brought a ceiling down on Luke and burned his temple. Also shot at him with a ****ton of AT-AT's and sliced through Luke's entire body (not knowing Luke was a Force projection).
• Vader: froze Han in carbonite. Kylo: what did he do to Han, again? Oh, yeah . . .

 

[xipotec]

LOL


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

Holy crap ajp, absolutely epic, lol.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

AJP wins the interwebs today!

 

[rushmore223]

Wow!

You just shot down nearly every argument I've ever heard against TLJ!

Nice!

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